Will NPCS follow the same rules as us in 3.0 :D??

[777Driver]

^Great list, anyone who pays attention is aware of the above. Unfortunately the list will be buried and a few months later someone else will bang on about cheating NPC's.

Powerplant logic should also be noted, the amount of times I have seen cmdrs complain that a ship is cheating because it functions with a powerplant at 0%

Powerplant - A power plant malfunction causes output to drop to 40% for 5 secs and then return to 100%.
A power plant at 0% integrity will result in power output dropping to 20% for 5 secs and then return to a backup mode running at 50%.

 

[Aashenfox]

We need to separate the AI, which is excellent, from the behaviours, which are not.

P.S. Re: list above, yes, good list, but I'd like to elaborate on PP destruction...

There is another metric at work with power plants and 0%. I can take out a power plant with super pens, to 0% (it's definitely below 0, as my super pens take off 24% per hit, and I hit the last one at 10% or something), the ships stop moving, I close in, and can pump more than 4 or 5 more shots into the PP and they can still reboot and start fighting again. There seems to be a % chance that the PP will be destroyed AFTER it goes to 0, probably around the 30% range from what I gather.

 

[Craith]

Thanks for the reminder of PP, 777 driver and Aashenfox. Concerning Power Plants, according to my knowledge (which might be wrong):

When it reaches 0%, it drops to 40% output for 5 seconds, and then stabilises at 50% output (haven't heard about the 100%). That could be the reason for some "reboots" we see, since NPCs are usually not that stretched for power, so 50% can be enough to be mostly operational for them (I try to make sure to be able to at least run at 40%, but no chance in the Eagle ... the enhanced drives alone use more than 40%).

Whenever a power plant at 0% takes any damage, it has a chance to blow up . This is depending on the damage dealt, so plasmas and rails have a higher chance than small pulse laser turrets.

 

[777Driver]

Thanks for the reminder of PP, 777 driver and Aashenfox. Concerning Power Plants, according to my knowledge (which might be wrong):

When it reaches 0%, it drops to 40% output for 5 seconds, and then stabilises at 50% output (haven't heard about the 100%). That could be the reason for some "reboots" we see, since NPCs are usually not that stretched for power, so 50% can be enough to be mostly operational for them (I try to make sure to be able to at least run at 40%, but no chance in the Eagle ... the enhanced drives alone use more than 40%).

Whenever a power plant at 0% takes any damage, it has a chance to blow up . This is depending on the damage dealt, so plasmas and rails have a higher chance than small pulse laser turrets.

Hey Craith, It is early and I should probably have a coffee ;-) reread your post and I think you misunderstood me.

A malfunction will return to 100% power output ( a malfunction can randomly occur if the integrity is around 80% or lower)

A powerplant shutdown 0% integrity will stabilise at 50% power output. I might be wrong about the 5 seconds at 20% output, it could well be 40%, I'd have to check again.

 

[Craith]

Sorry misread that. On mobile here so posting takes time and memory sometimes fails me on finer details.

 

[sollisb]

I'd be happy if they could hire someone with talent to code the AI. The current AI is pathetic.

 

[Troy_McClure]

Well, at least you're only complaining about rail guns on eagles (which are the most manoeuvrable small ships hence should be the most accurate, don't you think?)...fortunately for you, most NPCs aren't eagles! Therefore this problem is minimal & hardly worth bringing up.

On reflection, this looks like a troll post as there is so much misinformation here - no-one can be this ignorant, right? - a well done troll, though! 7/10

 

[Vasious]

I'd be happy if they could hire someone with talent to code the AI. The current AI is pathetic.

They did, it was too good, it was tuned back.

 

[nanite2000]

I'd be happy if they could hire someone with talent to code the AI. The current AI is pathetic.

Did you apply for that job yet?

https://www.frontier.co.uk/careers/disciplines/programming/core-technology-programmer

 

[777Driver]

I'd be happy if they could hire someone with talent to code the AI. The current AI is pathetic.

Am used to this kinda stuff from you, can you elaborate? What is pathetic about the actual AI in this game? Personally I find it impressive, especially considering how hard it is to code AI. From what I have seen over the years the main issue seems to be RES farmers and cmdrs that are too scared to lose a ship to AI, you can hardly fault SJA for that, she is obviously told to restrain the AI to a certain extent. Non combat issues, my only problem with AI logic is the ram scan bug, and occasional high speed rear ending by NPC's around starports.

 

[sollisb]

Am used to this kinda stuff from you, can you elaborate? What is pathetic about the actual AI in this game? Personally I find it impressive, especially considering how hard it is to code AI. From what I have seen over the years the main issue seems to be RES farmers and cmdrs that are too scared to lose a ship to AI, you can hardly fault SJA for that, she is obviously told to restrain the AI to a certain extent. Non combat issues, my only problem with AI logic is the ram scan bug, and occasional high speed rear ending by NPC's around starports.

No idea who SJA is...

AI deficiencies..

They Ram like there are no consequences. Example: Conda rammed me last night. It went from 80+ hull to 47, and I then finished it off.

NPCs face tanking a Cutter in a Gunship.. Only one outcome there.
NPCs trying to do boost turns and end up sitting end to my guns.
NPCs flying across the field of fire. Totally realistic!
NPCs face kissing when scanning while I'm in combat with another ship!

All of this can be forgiven, if, IF we didn't get fines for them getting hit. I'm quite aware it's a combat 'game' but it really is dumber than dumb.

And don't me started on the docking...

 

[sollisb]

They did, it was too good, it was tuned back.

Eh no, not quite.. What they did was make the armour and weapons OP... The AI dictates how the ship flies. Havign played for years, in my opinion, the flight mechanics on NPCs has gotten worse.

 

[Craith]

Eh no, not quite.. What they did was make the armour and weapons OP... The AI dictates how the ship flies. Havign played for years, in my opinion, the flight mechanics on NPCs has gotten worse.

Actually, as far as I remember it was a combination of both. There were some combinations of weapons that were bugged (rapidfire PAs anyone?), and generally AI ships had more modded modules (also with effects, which they don't have anymore).

But also the AI was better, more worried about its own survival, actively trying to stay out of your field of view, even fleeing when shields drop. It was not perfect, e.g. flying away with a slower ship. Still, it was deemed to dangerous by the masses, having an impact on CR/h because RES-slaughter was (a little bit) harder, NPCs sometimes escaped and (gasp) shieldless trading was dangerous. Thus it was reversed.

 

[Gutser]

this game could be so much more immersing if the npcs that populated the the galaxy behaved as if they were true independent characters and not just game mechanics that were there to annoy I mean provide an experience to the player. Upon entering a system I should find it populated with npcs already going about their business, with no npcs being placed there simply because some game loop saw that I had cargo so it spawned a pirate npc of the same ship class and combat rating as me and told it to attack me. If I get interdicted by a pirate, it should only be because when I jumped in there happened to be a pirate npc looking for targets in SC who decided I was a good target.

Exactly this. If the NPCs would be persistent, the game would feel completely different.

 

[777Driver]

Eh no, not quite.. What they did was make the armour and weapons OP... The AI dictates how the ship flies. Havign played for years, in my opinion, the flight mechanics on NPCs has gotten worse.

You are talking about the weapons bug for players dealing with NPC's in open and private group. Myself and Vasious are talking about AI tactics, I have also been here from the very beginning, AI tactics has steadily improved, the peak for me is when they started using much better evasive tactics, it actually felt like a fight, then the devs dialled it back because people complained that they couldn't shoot fish in a barrel.


NPCs face tanking a Cutter in a Gunship.. Only one outcome there - This stopped happening until the AI was reverted
NPCs trying to do boost turns and end up sitting end to my guns - Not sure what you mean here, I tend to only target Elite ships, and I fly heavy ships, this is something you see across all ranks?
NPCs flying across the field of fire. Totally realistic! - Trigger discipline, you can get the same thing flying in a wing
NPCs face kissing when scanning while I'm in combat with another ship! - See the above ^

Anyway, like I said, using the words 'Pathethic' is typical from you, so I can't really take it seriously.

SJA (Sarah) works on the AI, she was the one active on the forum listening to feedback, on release a group players literally cried until the AI was partially reverted. I made a bunch of videos during that period, and many others tried to help those that where struggling, as usual any offer of help was met by 'Don't tell me to git gud..."

 

[Moesis]

Actually, as far as I remember it was a combination of both. There were some combinations of weapons that were bugged (rapidfire PAs anyone?), and generally AI ships had more modded modules (also with effects, which they don't have anymore).

But also the AI was better, more worried about its own survival, actively trying to stay out of your field of view, even fleeing when shields drop. It was not perfect, e.g. flying away with a slower ship. Still, it was deemed to dangerous by the masses, having an impact on CR/h because RES-slaughter was (a little bit) harder, NPCs sometimes escaped and (gasp) shieldless trading was dangerous. Thus it was reversed.

That AI implementation was far better than the current one. It's unfortunate that they "threw the baby out with the bathwater" on that one. In my mind it was a case of it was too dangerous (because bugged weapons) and it was too annoying with them running. They should have just fixed the bugged weapons and fixed the AI up a bit, as the too annoying part did have some merit, but could have been fixed.

The annoying aspect from my perspective was when doing missions, you'd get them doing the typical spawn behind you and interdict maneuver, only if you fought them and dropped their shields, they ran away, but then a game loop of them spawning, interdicting you, then immediately running away, was created, until their shields came back up, but if their shields went down again, that loop would start again, making it very annoying to get to where you were trying to go if you were in a slower ship.

All they had to do was make it so if they ran, they stayed away, but to this day, that behavior of them running and coming back for more is still actually there sometimes, only it's extremely rare since they rarely run away (and don't seem to boost when they do so are easy to catch and kill). It's that same loop of if the player decides to submit to an interdiction then runs to super-cruise they just seemingly didn't update it to recognize if it was the player or NPC who was running and instead of fixing it, nerfed the AI into what we have now.

 

[Terry Bruge-Hiplo]

Pursuing NPC slams into a planet, then a few seconds later drops in on you after you come out of SC... continues to fire turrets while FSD charging, then jumps out, in the opposite direction of where the WS shows the destination... but yeah, it's the player's lack of skill...

 

[sollisb]

You are talking about the weapons bug for players dealing with NPC's in open and private group. Myself and Vasious are talking about AI tactics, I have also been here from the very beginning, AI tactics has steadily improved, the peak for me is when they started using much better evasive tactics, it actually felt like a fight, then the devs dialled it back because people complained that they couldn't shoot fish in a barrel.


NPCs face tanking a Cutter in a Gunship.. Only one outcome there - This stopped happening until the AI was reverted
NPCs trying to do boost turns and end up sitting end to my guns - Not sure what you mean here, I tend to only target Elite ships, and I fly heavy ships, this is something you see across all ranks?
NPCs flying across the field of fire. Totally realistic! - Trigger discipline, you can get the same thing flying in a wing
NPCs face kissing when scanning while I'm in combat with another ship! - See the above ^

Anyway, like I said, using the words 'Pathethic' is typical from you, so I can't really take it seriously.

SJA (Sarah) works on the AI, she was the one active on the forum listening to feedback, on release a group players literally cried until the AI was partially reverted. I made a bunch of videos during that period, and many others tried to help those that where struggling, as usual any offer of help was met by 'Don't tell me to git gud..."

Well, from my perspective; I never saw AI that was reverted. I was here before and after, but somehow missed the inbetween.

I fly Cutter/Vette predominantly and for sure, Clippers have this move, that they boost and then try to loop, so that they are facing you but behind you so they have free shoots.. I have yet to see it work. It always ends up that they are facing away from me and at my front, so it's me that has free shoot.

NPCs ramming I assume comes from the same team. It is pathetic. It's like 'we can do nothing better so lets ram the players'. I somehow feel, it is being approached wrongly. The AI (i guess) is supposed to appeal to all, when it should ( in my opinion) be tuned per situation. Example; We've had loRes, HiRes, HazRez from the beginning. How-ever, the ships and modules have changed. In fact we have Horizons which is a whole level above the basic ED. So; they should have added superior Res (or insert your own name here) type Extraction sites, where they could let the AI go nutz. If you wanna play in there, then you better be good pilot backed up with a good ship, cuz, yer a gonna get a thumpin.

I keep coming back to; They just don't know how to build a MMO. Blizzard don't make all the mobs in WestFall suddenly be able to kick L80 butts. No, they add on a new area, where the players knows, before they enter, the AI is way better than back in WestFall. The same should be done in ED, if it ever wants to be an MMO.

If they have the means to up the AI, not the hardware, then they need to add a new res site and let it go do it's thing. Players can pit their uber ships against the AI team. I think, players would actually enjoy it. once there is a 'chance' of beating them. Havign super duper AI with insta-kill weapons is ont he end of silly.

I'll stop waffling

 

[Muetdhiver]

They undoubtedly break rules (e.g. when it comes to jump range when interdicting) but I'm fairly sure most of the ones in the OP are just made up. Not having SCBs and acting like they have them? Tosh. Sounds like sour grapes to me.

SCB's/HRP's/MRP's never appear on scans. Try it some time.

The only way NPC's break the rules are

• Infinite MC amo in CZ's. (but AFIK, not for the other weapons)
• Heat management (SCB/rails spam)
• Jump range when you get one of those "stalker" NPC's.

I'd like NPC's of high ranks to have :

• Dangerous => G3 engineering
• Deadly => G4 engineering + Specials
• Elite => G5 engineering + Specials
• Heat management like players
• Use up to date player style loadouts

 

[sollisb]

SCB's/HRP's/MRP's never appear on scans. Try it some time.

The only way NPC's break the rules are

• Infinite MC amo in CZ's. (but AFIK, not for the other weapons)
• Heat management (SCB/rails spam)
• Jump range when you get one of those "stalker" NPC's.

I'd like NPC's of high ranks to have :

• Dangerous => G3 engineering
• Deadly => G4 engineering + Specials
• Elite => G5 engineering + Specials
• Heat management like players
• Use up to date player style loadouts

I agree in the main but...

Player without Horizons cannot go against your Elite NPC ships, but, needs them to get Elite Combat rank... How do you resolve that ?