With the implementation o NEW Karma e C&P - Will the Log timer go up? 15 secs is to low!

[Jason Lightning]

I'm going to admit that my point was very much about edge cases. However they do happen, and I do believe the rights of those unfortunate should be protected. The world is a nasty place.

What rights? FDEV can't legally do anything against your hardware or property, that isn't even anywhere in this discussion.

 

[Jason Lightning]

Again, please note: I'm a solo player, who has never logged.

It seems to me that folks are taking this video game far too seriously. It's only a game.

Actually, it's less than a game; it's a sandbox "toy", that is: It's something you play with. A true game has winners and losers; there's no way to win this game, only an individual battle.

When someone logs, it has very little effect on the game itself. The effect on the background simulation is miniscule. So the logger skipped a rebuy. Big deal. I see it as no different from the many other exploits. Should the exploits be removed? Sure, but there will likely be new ones.

I just don't see this as a real problem with the game.

I'd much prefer the developers work on other things, like improving missions, improving exploration, landable atmospheric planets, more ship types, etc. It's a long list of enhancements, which will make the game better for all, instead of something that only a small group of vocal players care about.

Of course you don't see this as a real problem, just as you wouldn't see exploiters of Engineering or Quince as a real problem, as you say you are a solo only player. The topic is related to a subject that concerns Open and to a lesser extent private.

 

[NW3]

Of course you don't see this as a real problem, just as you wouldn't see exploiters of Engineering or Quince as a real problem, as you say you are a solo only player. The topic is related to a subject that concerns Open and to a lesser extent private.

Ah, but it does concern me, to the extent that these endless threads clutter up the forum and that they distract the developers from working on the things that many more players care about. (FD has said that PvP is only a small subset of players.)

 

[Deleted member 110222]

What rights? FDEV can't legally do anything against your hardware or property, that isn't even anywhere in this discussion.

Exactly. Frontier can't legally tell me I can't turn my PC off at any time.

But I digress. This is all hypothetical. You won't find me in Open anymore. As well as my dodgy Internet, so many PvP'ers are such drama queens over this, I just don't want to get involved at all.

This will be my final post in this thread. I hope you get your solution. Myself? I'm solving the problem by sticking to Solo/PG.

 

[Jason Lightning]

Ah, but it does concern me, to the extent that these endless threads clutter up the forum and that they distract the developers from working the things that many more players care about. (FD has said that PvP is only a small subset of players.)

Solo also consists of a small subset of players, you forget that PvP doesn't mean all of Open and private.

Should FDEV remove Solo because it doesn't concern a majority?

(Rhetorical question of course, but by the same token one shouldn't go into a solo thread and demand changes perhaps one shouldn't go into a thread not about Solo and waive off all concerns as meaningless)

Exactly. Frontier can't legally tell me I can't turn my PC off at any time.

But I digress. This is all hypothetical. You won't find me in Open anymore. As well as my dodgy Internet, so many PvP'ers are such drama queens over this, I just don't want to get involved at all.

This will be my final post in this thread. I hope you get your solution. Myself? I'm solving the problem by sticking to Solo/PG.

FDEV isn't stopping you from turning off your PC, but FDEV can put consequences ingame for doing such.

You claim that others act as drama queens, but then act like FDEV punishing exploiters would be infringing on civil liberties, how does that work?

 

[Jukelo]

However, if anyone thinks that karma will be a silver bullet, they are very much mistaken. We're dealing with an issue that is out of game here, and no matter what Frontier does, they never will nor should they ever have complete control over how an individual uses their hardware and property.

Frontier isn't regulating how people use their hardware and property. They're regulating how people interact with Frontier's software. You're entirely free to yank the cable out, that's your property and Frontier doesn't have the authority to stop you or punish you outside of the scope of your agreement with them.. They do, however, have the authority to affect your access to their services if you yank the cable out while using said services.

 

[Deleted member 110222]

Solo also consists of a small subset of players, you forget that PvP doesn't mean all of Open and private.

Should FDEV remove Solo because it doesn't concern a majority?

(Rhetorical question of course, but by the same token one shouldn't go into a solo thread and demand changes perhaps one shouldn't go into a thread not about Solo and waive off all concerns as meaningless)



FDEV isn't stopping you from turning off your PC, but FDEV can put consequences ingame for doing such.

You claim that others act as drama queens, but then act like FDEV punishing exploiters would be infringing on civil liberties, how does that work?

Yep', everyone is a drama queen, I know. I think that's why Frontier are so damned quiet now.

But I will say this. They can punish me for that rare moment I turn off because my grandmother had a stroke. But rest assured that I will be providing evidence of what happened in my life when the storm passes from my family.

Frontier can deal out punishment for logging all they like, however, in return, they should be prepared to listen to appeal cases from those like myself who have such rubbish life circumstances that sometimes, we have to turn a game off "when we're not supposed to."

 

[NW3]

Solo also consists of a small subset of players, you forget that PvP doesn't mean all of Open and private.

Should FDEV remove Solo because it doesn't concern a majority?

(Rhetorical question of course, but by the same token one shouldn't go into a solo thread and demand changes perhaps one shouldn't go into a thread not about Solo and waive off all concerns as meaningless)

My understanding is that Solo players ARE the majority, in part, because Open is so toxic.

Of course I know that PvP is not all of Open and Private Groups. The largest Private Groups are the various Mobius groups; the reason there is more than 1 Mobius group is because there are too many PvE members to fit in a single group.

This does concern Solo as well, at least as far as changing the menu logout timer and distracting the developers from "more important" tasks, that could improve the game for all.

 

[Hessfire]

Solo also consists of a small subset of players, you forget that PvP doesn't mean all of Open and private.

Should FDEV remove Solo because it doesn't concern a majority?

(Rhetorical question of course, but by the same token one shouldn't go into a solo thread and demand changes perhaps one shouldn't go into a thread not about Solo and waive off all concerns as meaningless)



FDEV isn't stopping you from turning off your PC, but FDEV can put consequences ingame for doing such.

You claim that others act as drama queens, but then act like FDEV punishing exploiters would be infringing on civil liberties, how does that work?

Punishing exploiters = I am all in for that...
Punishing someone for exercising their choice to use the FD APPROVED AND COMPLETELY LEGAL METHOD of menu-exit, AT ANY TIME OF THEIR CHOOSING = Count me out as that infringes on my fair use of my system/software in a manner SANCTIONED BY FD
Punishing someone for pulling the plug = I might be on board but there would need to be irrefutable proof of a pattern (and just your say-so does not count)

And with that I will be extricating myself from this conversation...don't worry as I will use the menu-log in 15..14..13..12..10..9..8..7..6..5..4..3..2..1

 

[Jason Lightning]

My understanding is that Solo players ARE the majority, in part, because Open is so toxic.

Of course I know that PvP is not all of Open and Private Groups. The largest Private Groups are the various Mobius groups; the reason there is more than 1 Mobius group is because there are too many members to fit in a single group.

This does concern Solo as well, at least as far as changing the menu logout timer and distracting the developers from "more important" tasks, that could improve the game for all.

Your understanding is flawed, private and Open are the main modes and many features including multicrew and wings were diesgned for this service. PVP does not equal Open or private, just as PVE does not equal Solo and private.

Distracting the developers is a lame excuse for not fixing an exploit, was it distracting when the developers moved to stop Engineer exploits? Distracting when the developers work on correcting economy exploits that were relatively unknown to Solo?

Nobody really cares if as a solo only player you pull the plug or logout, that really affects nobody and the developers aren't going to do anything on that front, nor can they because of how P2P works. And as I've seen other sources mention repeatedly the developers won't be putting any punishments on Solo players logging. So what is your concern then?

 

[Jason Lightning]

Punishing exploiters = I am all in for that...
Punishing someone for exercising their choice to use the FD APPROVED AND COMPLETELY LEGAL METHOD of menu-exit, AT ANY TIME OF THEIR CHOOSING = Count me out as that infringes on my fair use of my system/software in a manner SANCTIONED BY FD
Punishing someone for pulling the plug = I might be on board but there would need to be irrefutable proof of a pattern (and just your say-so does not count)

And with that I will be extricating myself from this conversation...don't worry as I will use the menu-log in 15..14..13..12..10..9..8..7..6..5..4..3..2..1

If you use menu logging as a 'get out of bad situation' frequently in Open you should be punished. Is it fair to an opponent in a CZ or to a bounty hunter after your bond/bounty? Is it fair to the pirate after your cargo, or to the ship that you attack but is winning to just menu log and avoid all consequences? The developers have stated they will look into putting Karma consequences on logging, and rightly so. There will likely be an allowance for accidents but beyond that it's on you to not abuse logging in a combat situation, especially involving players.

(Logging out of solo and to a lesser extent private isn't an issue, no one cares and the only person you are cheating is yourself in such cases.)

 

[Hessfire]

If you use menu logging as a 'get out of bad situation' frequently in Open you should be punished. Is it fair to an opponent in a CZ or to a bounty hunter after your bond/bounty? Is it fair to the pirate after your cargo, or to the ship that you attack but is winning to just menu log and avoid all consequences? The developers have stated they will look into putting Karma consequences on logging, and rightly so. There will likely be an allowance for accidents but beyond that it's on you to not abuse logging in a combat situation, especially involving players.

(Logging out of solo and to a lesser extent private isn't an issue, no one cares and the only person you are cheating is yourself in such cases.)

It doesn't matter what you think, or what you FEEL is fair, the bottom line here is that you are advocating a Punishment In Search Of A Crime...and it doesn't work. By advocating an increase in the timer for those that are using Menu-Exit (which FDev has on MULTIPLE OCCASSIONS stated is legal - even in combat) You are inflicting further punishment on those who are using the system as intended.

In short, your morality and ethics are fine for you and yours, but I will not have them inflicted upon myself or mine. As long as I am within the terms of the agreement executed between myself and FDev, there should be nothing further that you should be able to inflict on me without FDev altering the agreement and gaining my express approval thereto.

 

[Jason Lightning]

It doesn't matter what you think, or what you FEEL is fair, the bottom line here is that you are advocating a Punishment In Search Of A Crime...and it doesn't work. By advocating an increase in the timer for those that are using Menu-Exit (which FDev has on MULTIPLE OCCASSIONS stated is legal - even in combat) You are inflicting further punishment on those who are using the system as intended.

In short, your morality and ethics are fine for you and yours, but I will not have them inflicted upon myself or mine. As long as I am within the terms of the agreement executed between myself and FDev, there should be nothing further that you should be able to inflict on me without FDev altering the agreement and gaining my express approval thereto.

May want to reread that EULA then, cause FDEV can certainly put karma consequences on abuse of disconnection in Open.

It's 'FDEV legal' now and likely would remain 'legal', but you could face yet unspecified 'karma' consequences for doing so, maybe an instance of only other combat loggers perhaps. Which wouldn't be a bad punishment persay, it just makes it so others don't have to deal with a cheater.

 

[Hessfire]

May want to reread that EULA then, cause FDEV can certainly put karma consequences on abuse of disconnection in Open.

It's 'FDEV legal' now and likely would remain 'legal', but you could face yet unspecified 'karma' consequences for doing so, maybe an instance of only other combat loggers perhaps. Which wouldn't be a bad punishment persay, it just makes it so others don't have to deal with a cheater.

If it is FDev Legal then it is not cheating either

 

[Jason Lightning]

If it is FDev Legal then it is not cheating either

Of course it is, you just won't be punished by FDEV for it right now.

 

[NW3]

"If it is FDev Legal then it is not cheating either"

Of course it is, you just won't be punished by FDEV for it right now.

I think not. By definition, if FD considers it "legal", then it's within the rules of the game and not cheating (regardless of your feelings about it).

 

[Jason Lightning]

"If it is FDev Legal then it is not cheating either"



I think not. By definition, if FD considers it "legal", then it's within the rules of the game and not cheating (regardless of your feelings about it).

'Feelings' have little to do with it, cheating is defined as unfair gameplay, by definition using the nature of P2P to avoid negative consequences is cheating. FDEV never said it wasn't cheating, all they said is that they consider it 'legal' in the sense that they won't currently punish players for menu logging, and that the issue will be revisited later. Karma is that revisit.

You know quite well that it's cheating too, trolling is rather unbecoming.

 

[Shackram]

Wouldn't it be easier to just play solo? Not saying I am a combat logging apologist (although all the discussions about it are quite ridiculous), as said above, I would welcome a private group where you can have your own rules like kick everyone who leaves the game. I still don't understand why this is not a thing, if Mobius is good enough for PvE, a dedicated private group is good enough for PvP.

But babelfisch!

A PvP private group would be full of players that can fight back and that's not the kind of target rich enviroment that people crying over combat log want.

Also something something MUH BGS?

 

[Hessfire]

'Feelings' have little to do with it, cheating is defined as unfair gameplay, by definition using the nature of P2P to avoid negative consequences is cheating. FDEV never said it wasn't cheating, all they said is that they consider it 'legal' in the sense that they won't currently punish players for menu logging, and that the issue will be revisited later. Karma is that revisit.

You know quite well that it's cheating too, trolling is rather unbecoming.

A- No, it is not cheating, even when you try to redefine the term in a self-serving way. FDev have been clear that a graceful menu exit IS NOT COMBAT LOGGING - period.
B- It's not trolling when someone tries to use the truth of a situation to show another the "error" of their ways.

 

[Jason Lightning]

A- No, it is not cheating, even when you try to redefine the term in a self-serving way. FDev have been clear that a graceful menu exit IS NOT COMBAT LOGGING - period.
B- It's not trolling when someone tries to use the truth of a situation to show another the "error" of their ways.

'Graceful' right , all FDEV said is that the menu option will be revisited with Karma, and for now one won't face any punitive measures.

But it's quite obvious that quitting in the middle of a losing battle, especially when one is wanted, has cargo, or started the fight, is a cheap cowardly tactic. If one doesn't wish to play fairly with others you are better off sticking to private or solo, those modes exist and provide a less risky option of gameplay. Once karma comes out we'll hopefully see some proper action taken on cheaters, for repeat combat loggers having them instance only with other loggers seems a fitting solution that appeased everyone, even the loggers.