With the implementation o NEW Karma e C&P - Will the Log timer go up? 15 secs is to low!
- Thread starter CMDR GTR2014
- Start date
On the contrary, this is the sort of thing I want to see, a system that takes action on loggers but leaves some leeway to account for accidents like power or internet outages.
Indeed
You can't directly punish CLoggers, but you can discourage it even without karma.________
It is worth bearing in mind that Clogging is not just a 'problem' faced by gankers, it is a habitual mechanic used by sealclubbers too. Personally I would prioritise CLogging ahead of excessive ganking, because if CLogging is discouraged the playerbase stands a better chance of being able to solve many of these excessive ganking issues themselves.
This puts less pressure on the Karma system to be all things to all people.
Indeed
________
It is worth bearing in mind that Clogging is not just a 'problem' faced by gankers, it is a habitual mechanic used by sealclubbers too. Personally I would prioritise CLogging ahead of excessive ganking, because if CLogging is discouraged the playerbase stands a better chance of being able to solve many of these excessive ganking issues themselves.
This puts less pressure on the Karma system to be all things to all people.
It affects everyone, pirates, gankers, bounty hunters, all can be negatively effected by taking one-sided risk against a cheating opponent.
Personally I consider loggers of any sort to be worse than gankers that don't log. At least those CMDRs aren't cheating.
'Graceful' right
But it's quite obvious that quitting in the middle of a losing battle, especially when one is wanted, has cargo, or started the fight, is a cheap cowardly tactic. If one doesn't wish to play fairly with others you are better off sticking to private or solo, those modes exist and provide a less risky option of gameplay. Once karma comes out we'll hopefully see some proper action taken on cheaters, for repeat combat loggers having them instance only with other loggers seems a fitting solution that appeased everyone, even the loggers.
OK, please listen really carefully - Using the existing game mechanics of exiting to menu and waiting the requisite 15 sec is legal, legitimate, and perfectly within the rules as stated by FDev on these forums for YEARS (read longer than you have been around). While I have not problem in negative consequences for those that choose to Combat Log (as has been defined by using any method of terminating the game communication WITHOUT using the menu/timer option) I do have very strong objections to penalizing those that follow the established legal process. I also have a problem with ANYONE telling me where and how to play the game, or when it is "appropriate" for me to choose otherwise - which you are doing here.
While I appreciate that you are entitled to your opinion (however self-serving and wrongheaded I believe it to be), I respectfully submit that you may want to look through the dozens of threads specifically addressing Combat Logging that were part of this board before you came along. In any event, until and unless FDev choose to announce a change to the TOS and EULA to re-define using existing game mechanics as a cheat I am going to continue to play my game where I want, how I want, and in whatever fashion I choose to do so. And as long as I am not cheating per those 2 documents there is not one darned thing anyone can say or do about it.
With that I will bid you farewell...
/rant
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Sealclubbers CLog too
Oh. that clears it up.
A long rant that misses one key point, the game menu is not an actual ingame tool, it is an interface mechanic. Using it for the purposes of avoiding a loss of cargo or ship is cheating, no matter how many leaps of logic is used. It's the idea of going to play poker and leaving the table with your pot when you get a bad hand, all because the host feels bad for you and gives you that option.
A logger is a cheater, many of us will call one such because they can't stomach the idea of playing fairly. Accidents happen and the updated karma system, which will be removing the current 'legal' loophole that is menu logging without consequence, is coming.
If you lose in Open against a player, take it like a proper player and accept the consequences of the risks you took.
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On this, we agree, but imo (and FD's) menu logging is not cheating.
On the contrary, many bounty hunters and legitimate pirates have left explicitly because of constant loggers.
Also SDC, yeah those guys, got started from what I heard as a breakaway group of CODE pirates tired of having people menu log in 15 seconds. So in an indirect way too you could say that logging contributes to Open withdrawal.
One idea I've seen floated is a resetting timer or a longer timer that applies when in combat with players only. NPC logging isn't really something anyone cares about and in that case losing a ship because of an urgent errand seems excessive. As for abusing logging on NPCs, you're only really cheating yourself in such cases if doing so to avoid rebuy.
The distinction that seems to be missing is that 'legal' doesn't mean it isn't cheating, especially when 'legal' only really means that it's not an issue that can be handled in the current architecture without a major update.
Perhaps a flag that sets at the beginning of a session, and only gets properly cleared if one exits via the menu (legally). If a new session is initiated and the flag is still in the ON state, then appropriate Karma hit is applied and only decays after x (insert timeframe here)
Just my thought
It's a decent suggestion, but moot. FDev must provide a way to legally exit the application under any circumstances. If logging off this way annoys another player that is their call. I don't believe it can be punished. The timer can be extended though, subject to a few caveats.
The best solution (ie least bad) seems to be for players to do as they currently do, which is to either just get over it, or bear a personal grudge.
Currently it's 'legal' cheating, since context can't be determined by the devs and a system for factoring in instancing isn't in place. I think that FDEV should consider borrowing some solutions from other games, some have it so that exiting the game repeatedly to avoid a loss mark leads to being matched only with other loggers and cheaters. A healthy recharging allowance would let such a system not penalize players that say have a power outage or emergency, because really how often is that going to come up?
The main issue that everyone dislikes are players that intentionally log because they can't play the game fairly and are afraid to lose cargo or rebuy. Those cheaters are the ones that no one likes or wants to instance with.
Don't log out in combat. Easy enough. Not sure why you are even arguing. So many cry about immersion but as soon as they can't log out fast in a pvp battle they are the first to break immersion and log out or combat log.
Stay in combat until you escape or die. This logging out nonsense was curb stomped in EVE and it should be wiped out here as well.
How would you identify combat logging ?.
I do not believe that it should be possible to leave combat except via piloting: meaning you kill, you die, you jump, or you self-destruct.
I do not agree with a menu quit option that permits a ship with 0% FSD or 0% Drives (or both) to be teleported to safety by handwavium.
Therefore I do not believe that it should be possible to exercise the menu quit option at all whilst in combat (or other danger). If RL calls you away, you leave your ship to its fate.
If, however, as I expect, the menu quit timer remains in game, I believe that its duration should be elevated to longer than a piloted exit could ever take.
In other words, if we assume a guy fights the interdiction, fails it, waits out the long FSD cooldown, then gets hit by a Yuri Grom missile, then has to wait out that second cooldown, and then has to charge FSD for highwake and achieve highwake ... the menu quit timer should, for reasons that I hope are obvious, be made longer than that total time.
In other words, longer even than 60 seconds.
It should also be accompanied (as an FSD charge is) by a clear indication to the enemy of what is taking place.
I do, however, entirely agree with those who say that once activated, it should not require a second press at the end of the timer. If it's going to stay in game it may as well have a reasonable UI.
However, my fundamental concern as both a pilot and a customer is that as a matter of principle I do not believe it should ever be advantageous to use an out-of-game quit option to escape peril, over in-game piloting.
I do not agree with a menu quit option that permits a ship with 0% FSD or 0% Drives (or both) to be teleported to safety by handwavium.
Therefore I do not believe that it should be possible to exercise the menu quit option at all whilst in combat (or other danger). If RL calls you away, you leave your ship to its fate.
If, however, as I expect, the menu quit timer remains in game, I believe that its duration should be elevated to longer than a piloted exit could ever take.
In other words, if we assume a guy fights the interdiction, fails it, waits out the long FSD cooldown, then gets hit by a Yuri Grom missile, then has to wait out that second cooldown, and then has to charge FSD for highwake and achieve highwake ... the menu quit timer should, for reasons that I hope are obvious, be made longer than that total time.
In other words, longer even than 60 seconds.
It should also be accompanied (as an FSD charge is) by a clear indication to the enemy of what is taking place.
I do, however, entirely agree with those who say that once activated, it should not require a second press at the end of the timer. If it's going to stay in game it may as well have a reasonable UI.
However, my fundamental concern as both a pilot and a customer is that as a matter of principle I do not believe it should ever be advantageous to use an out-of-game quit option to escape peril, over in-game piloting.
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