Would you people stop trying to impose your selective interpretation of immersion/RP/simulation onto others?

I can see where the OP is coming from, up to a point, but only up to a point.

A lot of these discussions are around lore as much as they are about immersion.

The immersion side of it is easy to explain, whether you;re a casual player or not, for those few hours that make up a single play session you're supposed to feel like you're actually IN the game universe (particularly if you're playing it using VR) rather than "just playing a game." That's what an immersive game IS. Sure there will always be limits to that but most of the disagreements about immersion are about where those limits should lie rather than about the ultimate goal.

The lore part is a bit more complex. I write stuff, mostly noir and scifi with a spicing of mild fantasy and there's huge amounts of world-building goes into even the shortest story, and the same is true of any game. When it's absent, just as a story can feel "thin" then so does a game. With ED, we're playing in a universe that has an entire GENERATION of world-building behind it. FD were not making "a space game" with ED, they were making an Elite-series game. Back in the manual for the original Elite it was stated that broadcasting commodity prices beyond the borders of a single star system was strictly prohibited. Now of course this was handwavium to cover technical limitations of that time, but to this day, you've had to be docked at a station to know the current numbers of its market. It's become a feature of the world. There's no global chat because in the Elite universe the only way to communicate FTL is to use GalNet or by courier. Gameplay forced a few holes in that, like realtime comms between wings or friends even if they are in separate star systems but it's still the underlying principle, without it there would be no data-carrying missions. I could go on, but you see the point. FD have built us a universe and stuff that's inconsistent with that universe, which has largely retained its integrity all the way back to 1984 while being added to and fleshed out is GOING to get a rather visceral reaction on a forum full of people passionate about the game.

Between these two factors anything that moves the "threshold" on immersion or sees to "break the lore" is always going to turn into a rather "pointed" debate.
 
Well, if convenience really should trump all other concerns, then here's a few other convenience suggestions:

1: Infinite weapon/module ammo and limpets. Why should we have to go back to stations and pay credits for ammo and limpets? It's so inconvenient! We can just balance railguns and torpedoes with reload times.

2: Infinite fuel. Fuel scooping? Refueling at stations? How boring! So much waiting! We just shouldn't have to worry about fuel.

3: No more flying to CZs. All that time in supercruise is really inconvenient, accepting a combat mission should just teleport us to the mission area. Then we can run a randomly selected, scripted mission and teleport back at the end of it.

4: Passively regenerating hull and modules. Why should I ever have to return to dock if I don't want to? Our hull and modules should passively regenerate when not taking damage, like health in Call of Duty.

5: Completely remove naval ranks. Why bother fixing or balancing it when it can be instant? Naval ranks simply don't exist anymore, enjoy your corvettes and cutters.

6: Increase all jump ranges by a factor of 10. It takes way too long to get to Sothis, getting my Anaconda there in one jump is much more convenient, and Jacques might actually be reachable instead of just being a place for crazy explorers.

7: Make canopies invulnerable, and remove the life support module since we won't need it anymore. Having to limp back to the station because a lucky PA blew the canopy out is so inconvenient.

I have this weird feeling that these suggestions might not be well received. I don't know why though. Convenience uber alles, right?

People want to get rid of trivial, time consuming tasks. It has little to do with just convenience. It's about spending more time doing things that are actually challenging.

For example, having to return to the station because you were careless enough to get your canopy destroyed is anything but trivial. It's skill-based, it's challenging, it has an element of risk to it, and it makes you feel like the decisions you take actually matter in the game. But having to spend hours of meaningless traveling to simply transfer one of your ships from one station to the other? There is no risk, no skill involved, no progression, no gameplay other than hitting the frameshift button over and over again. Tedious as hell.
 
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Sorry OP but that's a stupid thread. Of course I will try and force my interpretation on you and ask Frontier to change the game according to my desires. Frontier are only going to develop one Elite: Dangerous, so you're damn right I'll do what I can to try and make sure it is my version. I don't care about your enjoyment, only mine, that's life. Don't like that? Well then you have a problem with the very concept of customer feedback. I suggest you go directly to Frontier and ask them to close the forums.

Wow. If I ever needed a perfect, illustrated example of just what I meant by the Frontier Forums are opinion hostile, you've just managed it within two posts of the one I made. Thank you, thank you so much for proving my point in crystal, concise format.

I should imgur this one and then post it up elsewhere, this is a perfect example of what's been created here.

*shakes head and ambles off*
 
Would you OP stop trying to impose your guilds and global chat etc onto others?

(don't really have anything against or for guilds, just find it funny the OP is doing the exact same he's criticizing)
 
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*giggle*

That's like blasting your stereo at a stop light and expecting others to cover their ears if they don't want to hear it.

"Dont' like it, don't use it" is expecting the opposed to not be affected by something that changes gameplay and removes one of the founding principles of the game.

Absolute nonsense. What is it with this forum that engenders such apocalyptic hyperbole?
 
People want to get rid of trivial, time consuming tasks. It has little to do with just convenience. It's about spending more time doing things that are actually challenging.

For example, having to return to the station because you were careless enough to get your canopy destroyed is anything but trivial. It's skill-based, it's challenging, it has an element of risk to it, and it makes you feel like the decisions you take actually matter in the game. But having to spend hours of meaningless traveling to simply transfer one of your ships from one station to the other? There is no risk, no skill involved, no progression, no gameplay other than hitting the frameshift button over and over again. Tedious as hell.

Is there anything more tedious, trivial, or time consuming in the game right now than grinding naval rank? Even getting to rank 5 in PowerPlay is quicker (though far less permanent).

Clearly it should just be nuked from orbit, instead of being fixed and balanced.
 
I've never seen a community so reluctant to any form of change as this one. Jeez, people were even complaining when wings were announced. A fundamental feature of the game, and some people were against it. Apparently, some people just seem to want to preserve status quo at all cost.



Yeah that's pretty much what I'm talking about. You speak as if the game was currently perfect and well balanced, and anything that can change it is automatically a bad thing. You're right, instant transfer will affect many areas of the game. But that's exactly the point.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but no, I don't think the game is perfect. Never have and am quite vocal about what I think needs to be done to address it. As for being balanced? Not so much since the release of 2.1. The AI is still a mess in my opininion, but I expect to see that undergo another mutation come 2.2.

What I refer to are areas of the game that only a fool cannot see will be affected for the worse if this feature is implemented as described. It would take too long to type it all again, so if you are interested I suggest reading back through my posts on this thread for more information as to the reasons why.

Different people come at this game from different directions and the truth is that what may not seem like a game breaking situation for you actually does to other people. One thing that I am sure of is thet the traffic reports seen in the stations will now be a pointless feature. For those of us who read them and use them (hint: yours truly), they will now be useless. You see, I can read those reports and judge the raffic that passes through by the numbers I see. I can read the changes I see in systems my faction control and relate them to the fluctuations I see. The types of ships, their numbers and the results and it allows me to get a picture of what is going on. That is just one tiny part of what this feature will destroy as everyone travels everywhere in asps and simply jumps into their ship of choice upon arrival.

All of the variety and balance that this game has offered thus far in what is a procedurally generated gameworld is about to become all the more simplified and dumbed down. That may not matter to you, I don't know what it is about this game that interests you, but I do know that if you were interested in the same aspects as me, it would be crystal clear for you.

I don't have a problem with ship transfer as a feature, but what I do have a problem with are the downsides to it.

I take the pros and compare them to the cons and quite frankly, I do not think the benefits are worth what the game will lose in the long run. I don't give a damn about immersion. I think that whole argument is a joke. This discussion needs to be about what will and will not break the game for many people. If I didn't think there was too much to lose I would be agreeing with you.
 
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People want to get rid of trivial, time consuming tasks. It has little to do with just convenience. It's about spending more time doing things that are actually challenging.

For example, having to return to the station because you were careless enough to get your canopy destroyed is anything but trivial. It's skill-based, it's challenging, it has an element of risk to it, and it makes you feel like the decisions you take actually matter in the game. But having to spend hours of meaningless traveling to simply transfer one of your ships from one station to the other? There is no risk, no skill involved, no progression, no gameplay other than hitting the frameshift button over and over again. Tedious as hell.

Spot on! Have some rep +1 :)
 
Everyone continuing the argument on this thread is reinforcing the OPs point.

I agree with the OP in principle but would like to haggle over the details: it's the people who disagree with ME who need to sit down and shut up, instead of the people who disagree with him.

(/sarc :p )
 
Absolute nonsense. What is it with this forum that engenders such apocalyptic hyperbole?
Instant ship transfer is a pandora's box that many of us feel threatens the aspect which made us fall in the love with the game in the first place, among other things which have been written a thousand time in great detail in multiple threads. You not agreeing with it doesn't make it nonsense. We'll just agree to disagree.
 
Wow. If I ever needed a perfect, illustrated example of just what I meant by the Frontier Forums are opinion hostile, you've just managed it within two posts of the one I made. Thank you, thank you so much for proving my point in crystal, concise format.

I should imgur this one and then post it up elsewhere, this is a perfect example of what's been created here.

*shakes head and ambles off*

Welcome to life and scarcity of time and resources.
 
Instant ship transfer is a pandora's box that many of us feel threatens the aspect which made us fall in the love with the game in the first place...

And some of us feel that it's a storm in a teacup! Let's see how it performs in Beta, shall we? Then we can see whether on not the ED universe will indeed end as we know it.
 
-Guilds : only if FD has to check the name - like they do with player factions , I agree it would be nice.

-CQC : it is part of the elite universe and has been mentioned in lore many , many times. its a video game... in a video game (or it seems , sometimes its hard to tell)

-Global chat : only if it can be removed... system chat can allready be full of non immersive content.

-Instant ship transfer : is horrible and goes against everything the old elite are and against everything promised in the kickstarter. its not the concept of ship transfer the issue , its how its done. its just two steps away from being console comands.
Its not a delay that we want per say , just a ballance... so that its fair and more importantly - lore friendly

The lore is law , and the law is sacred
 
-Instant ship transfer : is horrible and goes against everything the old elite are and against everything promised in the kickstarter. its not the concept of ship transfer the issue , its how its done. its just two steps away from being console comands.
Its not a delay that we want per say , just a ballance... so that its fair and more importantly - lore friendly

The lore is law , and the law is sacred

Then don't use it.
 
Then don't use it.
But it changes the game.
Dumbs it down so very much , and you can not just ignore a feature that removes the need to plan and move your assets around in advance.

The system ruins the BGS and powerplay ballance and , worst of all is not lore friendly.

You can NOT ignore lore errors. if FD find a lore reason that makes sense and that is not 3D printing then -fine. its just a bad idea that I can live with.

Just the fact you can transfer ships via magic and with nearly no cost (because they said it will be cheap) is not what I backed , not what elite is.
 
Well, if convenience really should trump all other concerns, then here's a few other convenience suggestions:

1: Infinite weapon/module ammo and limpets. Why should we have to go back to stations and pay credits for ammo and limpets? It's so inconvenient! We can just balance railguns and torpedoes with reload times.

2: Infinite fuel. Fuel scooping? Refueling at stations? How boring! So much waiting! We just shouldn't have to worry about fuel.

3: No more flying to CZs. All that time in supercruise is really inconvenient, accepting a combat mission should just teleport us to the mission area. Then we can run a randomly selected, scripted mission and teleport back at the end of it.

4: Passively regenerating hull and modules. Why should I ever have to return to dock if I don't want to? Our hull and modules should passively regenerate when not taking damage, like health in Call of Duty.

5: Completely remove naval ranks. Why bother fixing or balancing it when it can be instant? Naval ranks simply don't exist anymore, enjoy your corvettes and cutters.

6: Increase all jump ranges by a factor of 10. It takes way too long to get to Sothis, getting my Anaconda there in one jump is much more convenient, and Jacques might actually be reachable instead of just being a place for crazy explorers.

7: Make canopies invulnerable, and remove the life support module since we won't need it anymore. Having to limp back to the station because a lucky PA blew the canopy out is so inconvenient.

I have this weird feeling that these suggestions might not be well received. I don't know why though. Convenience uber alles, right?

You can also add leave your ship at dock and earn credits for doing nothing .. :)
 
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In a topic like this , there is no right or wrong. only opinions.

Saying ''dont try and force us to use your immersion'' is countered by ''dont dumb the game down''

Both are legit , both are differnt opinions. and of course both are valid.

However , in the case of elite its different in my opinion.
Elite has allways been cold and harsh towards the player , product of the times? maybe

But many (not all , mind) backed it on the promise to a return to the thinking mans game , and of course a game of patience.
 
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