A slight, tangent but I thought this may be of interest. Little bit of an exclusive. ;)

As I have mentioned before, Robert Holdstock is something of an anomaly in SF and Fantasy scholarly circles as he is lauded for his fantasy work, but his science fiction and his contribution to Elite (by writing The Dark Wheel) is largely forgotten.

I am going to redress this. I have been commissioned to write the new edition of the Historical Dictionary of Fantasy Literature for Rowman and Littlefield. The previous edition was written by Professor Brian Stableford in 2004. This is a massive compilation of fantasy writers and fantasy concepts and is used by academics all over the world.

Included below is the current draft for Robert Holdstock's entry:

HOLDSTOCK, ROBERT (1948– 2009). British writer whose early work was mostly science fiction and horror; some commodified sword and sorcery was bylined “Richard Kirk” and “Chris Carlsen.” His novella, The Dark Wheel (1984), published with the computer game, Elite (1984) is still regarded as a seminal work of mythology amongst fans.

Holdstock’s series comprising Mythago Wood (1984), Lavondyss (1988), the title piece of The Bone Forest (1991), The Hollowing (1993), the stories in Merlin’s Wood (1994), Gate of Ivory, Gate of Horn (1997, aka Gate of Ivory) and finally Avilion (2009) are about a magical wood where archetypes of the collective unconscious of British and Breton folklore—including Arthur, Robin Hood, the Green Man, and the Wild Hunt—are systematically manifest. The Fetch (1991, aka Unknown Regions), “The Ragthorn” (1991 with Garry Kilworth), and Ancient Echoes (1996) are further dark fantasies based in a similar metaphysical system. The Merlin Codex series begun with Celtika (2001) and The Iron Grail (2002) is a hybrid of Celtic and classical forms.

I can't include much more, as this is one entry amongst more than 800 fantasy writers. But, The Dark Wheel deserves to be in there.
That's awesome :) congrats!!

... Arthur, dark fantasies, metaphysical, hybrid, Celtic, classical, are all highlighted in bold text...
 
interesting that they have named a UIA as Taranis

I kinda think Tithonus might have been more appropriate
or Eos
a messed up wish turns Tithonus into a cicada
a few references to the wheel the mantis the cicada and bees

or maybe Aristaeus
all his bees were killed because of a mistake.
and some fascinating mythology there...advice from proteus gets him new bees ...


this line is fascinating
'The Kalahari Desert's San people tell of a bee that carried a mantis across a river'

partly finding it interesting because of my thought that some of the Thargoid ships seem to me to be comprised of more than one life form.
mantis in the center control and weapons, cicada on flight control
(just want to add to those that see tiny legs in the canopy, those are the legs/arms of the wings, they extend or retract. look up Cicada)

and bees...reborn bees, black bees.
 
Taranis in Celtic mythology, as with Zeus and Donar (Thor) was attributed to the sun; sky and thunder and regarded as a powerful protector of man and leader of the Celtic pantheon, being a sky god Taranis was quick and all powerful, throwing his ‘sun wheel’ or chariot across the sky, eg quick as thunder the voice of lightning.

The sun wheel had various spokes, between four and eight and may have represented the seasons, or the passage of time.

Taranis literally meaning ‘thunder or to thunder’ and likewise is attributed to Oak and Ash trees, it’s open to debate why, but it could be that the Saxons / Norse / Pagans who venerated nature, streams and leafy tree groves, worshipped those types of trees over others because they were older / sturdier and more prone to lightning strikes - connecting them directly to the heavens!

There are no known direct historical links between Donar and Taranis other than the shared association with Jupiter / Jove / Thor, which likely was due to the Romans common practice of appropriation.



Donars Oak….Delphi….?

Any Spiralling Stars / Stargoids on a course to that particular neck of the woods?

More likely FD just mining a common naming library, but odd they would chose a name associated with an all powerful god known for thrashing the opponent and not peaceful in the slightest!

95CB0460-8F87-458C-A1AF-2446C612374A.gif
 
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Now why do you think that name is odd?

Powerful Thargoid entity thrashing humanity and not in the slightest peaceful IMHO fits what’s coming precisely!
I predict a brief but toasty end for Dalton Cheese Chase 😁
Pun intended 😉
 
I'm back with another Raxxla-Sol connection research update.

Since so many people have found correlations between the Raxxla Codex and the Sol system, I decided to catalogue all the bodies in Sol comparing them visually and in data to circa year 2000 facts. A historical comparison, if you will. The project is more in-depth than I first thought, so I'll post what I have now and add the other bodies later and link the posts together.

TLDR: Saturn and the included moons have clearly been very carefully recreated. Even Saturn's rings match the Cassini images extremely closely. Therefore, discrepancies between real-world Saturnian bodies and in-game bodies should be examined closely and not dismissed as "Fdev mistakes/lack of time".
See also: Historical Comparison of Jupiter and its moons.


Comparison of Saturn​

Comparing Saturn.png

Overall Appearance:​

Saturn in 3308 shows visibly less banding than it did in the early 2000s. It is more "soupy" but does retain light banding and some minor storms are evident on the surface. The largest visual difference is on the North pole, where between 1980 and 2020 old-Earth astronomers documented in detail the "Saturn Hexagon". The centre of the hexagon featured the polar vortex storm, and a similar south polar vortex storm was observed in the early 2000s by the Cassini probe.

Ring Structure:​

Saturn's Rings retain the overall structure of data from the early 2000s Cassini mission, the image above shows the comparison. The major difference can be noted in the B-ring. Historically the A and B rings were the thickest and most opaque rings, by 3308 the B ring has become almost translucent for unknown reasons.

General Composition:​

Saturn itself is smaller in 3308 than historical records indicate, by 2,536km. Its atmospheric composition has dropped from 96.3% Hydrogen in the 2000s to 73.7% Hydrogen by 3308. Atmospheric Helium has increased from 3.25% Helium in the 2000s to 26.3% Helium in 3308.


Comparison of Saturn's Moons​

comparing Saturn's Major Moons.png

Note: Major moons are defined as broadly spherical. Saturn's other moons are non-spherical and ranging from size from only a few km to under 150km. Mimas is the smallest spherical moon at 198km radius.

Overall Appearance:​

Saturn's moons, by and large, are visually recognisable to historical records from the early 2000s. Two moons show major differences when comparing them to historical images. Enceladus notably shows less surface features and is considerably less spherical than it was in the early 2000s. Iapetus also shows considerably less surface features than in the early 2000s, specifically missing its unique 'two-tone' appearance and 13km tall mountainous ridge that runs for 1,300km in a straight line around the equator, giving it a well-recorded "walnut shaped" appearance. Despite these changes all the six present moons' radii match the data from the early 2000s.

Composition Comparisons:​

Enceladus, Tethys, Dione, Rhea, and Titan all show changes in the percentage of ice in their crusts, and a comparable increase in the percentage of recorded rocky or rocky metallic materials. Titan's atmosphere seems to have remained stable at 89.4% Nitrogen and 1.4(6)% Methane since the 2000s Cassini mission. Iapetus however is considerably different compositionally. It seems to have lost all of its ice and in 3308 is listed as a "Rocky Body". Historical data from the 2000s show that Iapetus' composition is comparable to the other moons of Saturn, being a mix of around 80% ice and 20% Rocky material.


Conclusion of the Saturnian System Comparisons with Historical Records:​

Human colonisation and mining of the Sol system over ~1300 years likely has resulted in depletion of planetary resources in the Saturnian system. The B-ring could have been extensively mined for water-ice, accounting for its thinning. The remaining moons similarly could have been mined for ice and water, perhaps the heating produced by human occupation contributed to the loss of ice material.

Saturn's atmospheric changes are similarly likely the result of Hydrogen-skimming operations, and this may account for the visible differences in the cloud-layer formations of Saturn itself, and possibly for the reduction in Saturn's equatorial radius by 1,268km.

Remaining Areas for Study:​

The polar vortex' and North Polar Hexagon's absence is hard to explain, other than possibly these 'storm' systems simply dissipated over the last 1300 years.

It is difficult to fully account for Enceladus' present shape, however it was known even in the early 2000s that the moon was seismically active. Iapetus' different appearance and apparent loss of all ice without any change in radius or mass is more difficult to explain. Bris Dekker, a well-known Engineer located on Iapetus was unable to suggest any further lines of enquiry, merely commenting that "there's a lot of history in this system"

Official channels have shown that Mimas' absence is known and should not cause concern...


Comparisons of Jupiter and it's moons can be found here.
Edit: updated with larger images for readablity
 
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I'm back with another Raxxla-Sol connection research update.

Since so many people have found correlations between the Raxxla Codex and the Sol system, I decided to catalogue all the bodies in Sol comparing them visually and in data to circa year 2000 facts. A historical comparison, if you will. The project is more in-depth than I first thought, so I'll post what I have now and add the other bodies later and link the posts together.

TLDR: Saturn and the included moons have clearly been very carefully recreated. Even Saturn's rings match the Cassini images extremely closely. Therefore, discrepancies between real-world Saturnian bodies and in-game bodies should be examined closely and not dismissed as "Fdev mistakes/lack of time".


Comparison of Saturn​

View attachment 333231

Overall Appearance:​

Saturn in 3308 shows visibly less banding than it did in the early 2000s. It is more "soupy" but does retain light banding and some minor storms are evident on the surface. The largest visual difference is on the North pole, where between 1980 and 2020 old-Earth astronomers documented in detail the "Saturn Hexagon". The centre of the hexagon featured the polar vortex storm, and a similar south polar vortex storm was observed in the early 2000s by the Cassini probe.

Ring Structure:​

Saturn's Rings retain the overall structure of data from the early 2000s Cassini mission, the image above shows the comparison. The major difference can be noted in the B-ring. Historically the A and B rings were the thickest and most opaque rings, by 3308 the B ring has become almost translucent for unknown reasons.

General Composition:​

Saturn itself is smaller in 3308 than historical records indicate, by 2,536km. Its atmospheric composition has dropped from 96.3% Hydrogen in the 2000s to 73.7% Hydrogen by 3308. Atmospheric Helium has increased from 3.25% Helium in the 2000s to 26.3% Helium in 3308.


Comparison of Saturn's Moons​

View attachment 333232
Note: Major moons are defined as broadly spherical. Saturn's other moons are non-spherical and ranging from size from only a few km to under 150km. Mimas is the smallest spherical moon at 198km radius.

Overall Appearance:​

Saturn's moons, by and large, are visually recognisable to historical records from the early 2000s. Two moons show major differences when comparing them to historical images. Enceladus notably shows less surface features and is considerably less spherical than it was in the early 2000s. Iapetus also shows considerably less surface features than in the early 2000s, specifically missing its unique 'two-tone' appearance and 13km tall mountainous ridge that runs for 1,300km in a straight line around the equator, giving it a well-recorded "walnut shaped" appearance. Despite these changes all the six present moons' radii match the data from the early 2000s.

Composition Comparisons:​

Enceladus, Tethys, Dione, Rhea, and Titan all show decreases in the percentage of ice in their crusts, and a comparable increase in the percentage of recorded rocky or rocky metallic materials. Titan's atmosphere seems to have remained stable at 89.4% Nitrogen and 1.4(6)% Methane since the 2000s Cassini mission. Iapetus however is considerably different compositionally. It seems to have lost all of its ice and in 3308 is listed as a "Rocky Body". Historical data from the 2000s show that Iapetus' composition is comparable to the other moons of Saturn, being a mix of around 80% ice and 20% Rocky material.


Conclusion of the Saturnian System Comparisons with Historical Records:​

Human colonisation and mining of the Sol system over ~1300 years likely has resulted in depletion of planetary resources in the Saturnian system. The B-ring could have been extensively mined for water-ice, accounting for its thinning. The remaining moons similarly could have been mined for ice and water, perhaps the heading produced by human occupation contributed to the loss of ice material.

Saturn's atmospheric changes are similarly likely the result of Hydrogen-skimming operations, and this may account for the visible differences in the cloud-layer formations of Saturn itself, and possibly for the reduction in Saturn's equatorial radius by 1,268km.

Remaining Areas for Study:​

The polar vortex' and North Polar Hexagon's absence is hard to explain, other than possibly these 'storm' systems simply dissipated over the last 1300 years.

It is difficult to fully account for Enceladus' present shape, however it was known even in the early 2000s that the moon was seismically active. Iapetus' different appearance and apparent loss of all ice without any change in radius or mass is more difficult to explain. Bris Dekker, a well-known Engineer located on Iapetus was unable to suggest any further lines of enquiry, merely commenting that "there's a lot of history in this system"

Official channels have shown that Mimas' absence is known and should not cause concern...


I've almost completed the comparisons of Jupiter and it's moons, and I've collected the data on the rest of the Sol bodies, I just need to compile it. o7
Edit: updated with larger images for readablity
If you slightly change the gamma and contrast of the screenshot from the game, you will notice that the hexagon has been preserved, but it has become larger and rounder.
 
If you slightly change the gamma and contrast of the screenshot from the game, you will notice that the hexagon has been preserved, but it has become larger and rounder.
Oooh really? I'm not able to replicate that myself, possibly my ageing computer isn't able to display the necessary texture quality, could you post a screenshot for us? Thanks! I'll update my post with this info and your image :)
 
For reference, top image is gamma set as recommended in-game (on my screen). The bottom two are from gamma-cranked in-game.
Gamma cranked saturn.png


I'm not seeing a hexagon in there. There is textural banding and shadow banding, but nothing like the hexagon:
Edit: Below image is from Cassini, not in game :)
Saturn Hexagon large.jpg
 
For reference, top image is gamma set as recommended in-game (on my screen). The bottom two are from gamma-cranked in-game.
View attachment 333245

I'm not seeing a hexagon in there. There is textural banding and shadow banding, but nothing like the hexagon:
Edit: Below image is from Cassini, not in game :)
View attachment 333246
The angle is not very good, but I have marked the sides of the hexagon. This requires checking from a different angle. In all your screenshots, this spot tends to be hexagonal in shape
1669034376003.png
1669035175235.png
 
The angle is not very good, but I have marked the sides of the hexagon. This requires checking from a different angle. In all your screenshots, this spot tends to be hexagonal in shape
View attachment 333247View attachment 333248
Well spotted, but isn’t this more likely an effect generated by the stellar forge taking short cuts in building cloud patterns and not applying actual more detailed curved lines down to that level of detail.

My math is rusty but a hexagon is the atypical description of a infinite circumstance, eg you use hexagons in graphics to attribute a close proximity of a circle, but not as perfect as our eyes would perceive a natural curved line.

Not wanting to figure out how it’s done I think what we have in game is a compromise. FD taking the easy road.

Then again even though the ‘real’ hexagon isn’t in game, this could be an ironic example of art imitating life!
 
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They're taking down the Galnet Archive should we worry about this or ignore it?
On one hand probably not as it’s mostly ‘flavour’, I would imagine it costs a certain amount of coin, so it’s erasure is largely fiscal, my company does the same thing, data costs,

On a larger scale maybe yes as it could identify another narrative shift is coming in game, or a more relaxed attitude towards upkeep, cheaper to destroy than maintain!
 
The angle is not very good, but I have marked the sides of the hexagon. This requires checking from a different angle. In all your screenshots, this spot tends to be hexagonal in shape
View attachment 333247View attachment 333248
Thanks! I agree with Rochester, I think this is a result of graphical mapping and effects, I've spent many hours now around Saturn's poles in all light conditions and angles and I don't think this is 'present in game'. I also worked as a graphic designer IRL and I've seen a lot of artefacts from gradients caused by shadows and colour gradients, in short, I think this is a case of apophenia. Although, obviously if you think there's something here then more research is never a bad thing - maybe your own images and post-processing can present a better case? :)
 
Well spotted, but isn’t this more likely an effect generated by the stellar forge taking short cuts in building cloud patterns and not applying actual more detailed curved lines down to that level of detail.

My math is rusty but a hexagon is the atypical description of a infinite circumstance, eg you use hexagons in graphics to attribute a close proximity of a circle, but not as perfect as our eyes would perceive a natural curved line.

Then again even though the ‘real’ hexagon isn’t in game, this could be an ironic example of art imitating life!
As far as we know, all the planets are actually smoothed cubes, respectively, the hexagon cannot be random. From 2000 to the present day, the Saturn storm could naturally blur into this form.
This may be a display error caused by rendering and new lighting. Or as you said, a crutch to create a similar shape.
 
Thanks! I agree with Rochester, I think this is a result of graphical mapping and effects, I've spent many hours now around Saturn's poles in all light conditions and angles and I don't think this is 'present in game'. I also worked as a graphic designer IRL and I've seen a lot of artefacts from gradients caused by shadows and colour gradients, in short, I think this is a case of apophenia. Although, obviously if you think there's something here then more research is never a bad thing - maybe your own images and post-processing can present a better case? :)
As for the optical illusion, yes, it could have been her. But I, by virtue of my profession, am used to trusting my eyes, since I also work as a digital illustrator and have extensive experience in isometric and 3D graphics. :) I'll try to find an in-game confirmation.
 
To presume that the hexagon eroded over time I think places too much emphasis on FD being 100% scientifically accurate, which is IMPO something it is not.

With respect this is over thinking the problem.

I can’t locate any paper which outlines this as a projected outcome for the absence of the hexagon, but if anyone can please post. I’ll gladly eat my hat.

I too have worked in creative / graphic industries, I agree there is a hexagonal effect, but IMPO this is a ‘graphical’ artifice, not a simulation of a highly complex weather system which has been extrapolated over time to simply fizzle out, if FD are capable of doing that they should be applauded for such an achievement, obviously they have the resources to do it justice.

Does anyone own the Saturn bobble-head in game, how detailed is that too?

Thread 'What happened to Saturn in the past 1000 years?!?'
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/what-happened-to-saturn-in-the-past-1000-years.378190/

Shame we can’t ask Dr Kay Ross.

Lowest common denominator it’s poor design and complacency.

Source: https://youtu.be/VTn8gWrWWHU
 
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With respect this is over thinking the problem.

Lowest common denominator it’s poor design and complacency.
I don't agree it's poor design and complacency. If you recall in my Satun post it's very clear FDev worked exceptionally hard to replicate as much as they could of the Saturnian system - just look at the ring comparison, they bascially made an almost 1:1 replica of the rings. They could easily have not done that and just said "it's a thousand years later, the ring structure has changed" - really how many people have compared the rings to Cassini's photos like I did? Probably not many.

Also look at Jupiter's in-game atmosphere. It's a comparatively detailed texture with significant amount of 'depth' illusion:
Jupiter Atmo.jpg

If Fdev wanted to I'm 100% convinced they could have created a perfect rendition of present-day Saturn's atmosphere, Hexagon and all.

They didn't because it's environmental storytelling. The hexagon - according to present theories - is the result of deep storms (or aliens :alien:). It looks to me like Fdev are showing us "Something happened to Saturn in the last millennia that's altered it's cloud patterns".

@Burning_Scull Excellent! wed defo need more eyes on the Sol system in general. I'd be incredibly excited to see the hexagon of Saturn, I hope you're successful :)

I'm currently compiling my data on Jupiter and it's moons.
 
To presume that the hexagon eroded over time I think places too much emphasis on FD being 100% scientifically accurate, which is IMPO something it is not.

With respect this is over thinking the problem.

I can’t locate any paper which outlines this as a projected outcome for the absence of the hexagon, but if anyone can please post. I’ll gladly eat my hat.

I too have worked in creative / graphic industries, I agree there is a hexagonal effect, but IMPO this is a ‘graphical’ artifice, not a simulation of a highly complex weather system which has been extrapolated over time to simply fizzle out, if FD are capable of doing that they should be applauded for such an achievement, obviously they have the resources to do it justice.

Does anyone own the Saturn bobble-head in game, how detailed is that too?

Thread 'What happened to Saturn in the past 1000 years?!?'
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/what-happened-to-saturn-in-the-past-1000-years.378190/

Shame we can’t ask Dr Kay Ross.

Lowest common denominator it’s poor design and complacency.

Source: https://youtu.be/VTn8gWrWWHU
Thinking the Hexagon can erode at all is merely a lack of knowledge of how they work and a assumption that the Hexagon is some form of generic storm, it is not and it occurs over and over and over again throughout science, in this case of gas giants you are looking at Rossby wave deformations nothing more. The appearance can come and go in natural cycles the same as it does on elsewhere in nature, from the Quantum scale to Gas giants its pretty standard.

"They didn't because it's environmental storytelling. The hexagon - according to present theories - is the result of deep storms (or aliens :alien:). It looks to me like Fdev are showing us "Something happened to Saturn in the last millennia that's altered it's cloud patterns"."
Incorrect, Rossby Wave Deformations, its incredibly basic science if someones ever told you "Teh Alienz" you should block them as a idiot trying to hinder actual progress.
 
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