The Quest To Find Raxxla

[Jorki Rasalas]

It’s evident that your interpretation is your conceptualisation, given the visual cues available to you. And that’s valid, no one here is attempting to discard that. Every concept here is justified. I think what we are asking for is not for you to justify it, but to provide context, so it can be compared and assessed.

Different people see things differently.

For instance, when I see the first circle I see this image. But I maybe wrong?

View attachment 387004

Speculating upon the left hand circle some more, abstractly, the blue zones could simply be artistic license, or it could be intentional.

Either way the blue in the garden certainly depicts water in my opinion; that graphic element is used throughout the garden designs and is an obvious representation of some universal water effect/feature, the mosaic effect I presume to be intended to be / well, an a-typical mosaic effect used in many water features!

Could this hold any context outside of being ‘just water’ or being ‘just blue’?

Death by Water by Christine Mohanty

Death by Water in Milton on JSTOR

Christine Mohanty, Death by Water in Milton, Milton Quarterly, Vol. 14, No. 4 (DECEMBER 1980), pp. 122-126

www.jstor.org

Watery themes run throughout Milton’s text, and if pressed to represent hell in a garden motif, a body of water might suit?

Within the Miltonian cosmological construct in game, there is a band of water deities close to the top of the zone which identifies the underworld. This hypothetically marries with Celtic/Saxon concepts of the Otherworld, of which the Greek Underworld was a reflection of, not an actual ‘hell’ in the sense of being ‘punitive’. That was a Christian concept that evolved over time.

In the concept of the Otherworld, water was seen as a barrier/doorway into those ‘realms’.

Potentially there is a discrepancy in that first garden circle, because in Paradise Lost there was the ‘waters above’ aka the Jasper Sea. Although there is contention in the Milton’s fiction, that said waters were actually part of the Crystalline Sphere, or were ethereal elements of Chaos.

The water theme may also tie back to the Epic of Gilgamesh references in game, linked to the Lost Realms of Corbett Holdstock.

Within my cosmological construct hypothesis, the systems associated with Gilgamesh may sit upon a boundary of systems named after mountains, I feel this mountain range segments the upper and lower realms, but what else is important about this representation is that in game there are systems named after deities associated with the ‘waters above’ and the ‘waters below’.

In Robert Holdstock’s book Ragthorn, Gilgamesh must dive to the bottom of the primordial /flood waters to find his Ragthorn, the ‘thorny branch’.

Or it’s just a pool of water because it’s a garden.

I've said it before, but I'm not totally sold on the Miltonian hypothesis. However I have to agree that it is clear that someone (most likely MB) put an awful lot of effort into the Codex and used comparable Miltonian mythology/cosmology in ED system naming/placement. Now that must have been done for a reason, it could be just using extant info for system naming, but the location matching does seem to go deeper...

So, accepting this premise for the moment it is quite possible that the left part of the garden design in question is a hint to Miltonian concepts. The question that then arises is what does the rest of that garden design represent? I think that logically it should be a clue to specific location(s). However there are clearly other garden designs in the same and other stations-are those garden designs also clues?

And if that specific garden design is a clue then what is the solution? IIRC it is close to the statues, a striking visual item, so should we looking at the totality of those garden designs and statues etc taken together to derive meaning?

 

[Jorki Rasalas]

Ok breakfast coffee starting to work....
If the left third of that particular garden design is a representation of Milton's cosmology what are the short straight paths above and below both it and the inner circle & the main path to the middle third?

The thought has just occured that they're indicating equivalence. So the left third is Milton's cosmos and the middle+right are then indicating a specific system within "the pendant ball", the lights possibly suggesting the middle outer ring is the system star. Could be the system containing Raxxla?

Edit
I'm considering it as a star (either binary, or perhaps with a single asteroid belt) then 6 planets. The fifth being a double-ringed GG. Anyone fancy a body search (Spansh??) to see if it matches any system within the bubble?

 

[SpaceGoblin]

For instance, when I see the first circle I see this image. But I maybe wrong?

<Miltonian Cosmology Image snipped>

Ok, that's pretty striking! Looking around online, that correlates with other representations of Milton's Universe (apologies, I did say I was largely ignorant on such matters in an earlier post, so I went seeking corroboration!).

Knowing of MB's attachment to Milton's work, it's almost impossible not to regard the two designs as deliberately linked.

So I guess now comes figuring out if it's 'just' a little MB/Milton easter egg in it's own right, or an 'ahem, clue here, CMDR's!' signpost.

I've said it before, but I'm not totally sold on the Miltonian hypothesis. However I have to agree that it is clear that someone (most likely MB) put an awful lot of effort into the Codex and used comparable Miltonian mythology/cosmology in ED system naming/placement. Now that must have been done for a reason, it could be just using extant info for system naming, but the location matching does seem to go deeper...

Maybe if a system could be found that bears resemblance to the 'Garden Map' in the system view. One with a Miltonian link/name?

So, accepting this premise for the moment it is quite possible that the left part of the garden design in question is a hint to Miltonian concepts. The question that then arises is what does the rest of that garden design represent? I think that logically it should be a clue to specific location(s). However there are clearly other garden designs in the same and other stations-are those garden designs also clues?

And if that specific garden design is a clue then what is the solution? IIRC it is close to the statues, a striking visual item, so should we looking at the totality of those garden designs and statues etc taken together to derive meaning?

I was wondering about that when I stopped off at Trevithick Vision in the Ninabin System, both to pick up one last load of Silver to devalue the market for it in Eurybia yet further (but also to boost my wallet), and also take pictures of the different garden layouts there. I couldn't think of a satisfactory way to get an overview of all the gardens in their relative positions.

I then thought that maybe it might be a step too far to expect that all of the gardens have significance.

I think Rochester's prior post of Miton's Universe illustrated is a significant pointer to the garden layout that we've all been pondering these last couple of pages, but without similar reason to look at the other gardens, I think they might just be set dressing. As always, unless new info comes to light.

As to the Statue Garden, I thought that might be a representation of Orbis type stations - the inner circle being the bulbous docking bay/ball/cylinder, the middle ring a secondary hab ring as seen on some stations, the outer ring (with the water) the main ring, with the glass covered green-spaces.

The grey inner circle is the interior of the docking bay, the statues represent us hapless CMDR's, and the pillar between them represents that damnable structure at the far end of (too) many docking bays with the red lights on the end, that I invariably prang my ship on when lifting off from pads at that end of the bay! Eye of the beholder, of course

Spoiler: Statue Garden

Ok breakfast coffee starting to work....
If the left third of that particular garden design is a representation of Milton's cosmology what are the short straight paths above and below both it and the inner circle & the main path to the middle third?

Similar to my thoughts on 'maybe the other gardens are just gardens', perhaps a park bench is just a park bench. I say this having let thoughts about what they might represent roll around in my own brain.

The thought has just occured that they're indicating equivalence. So the left third is Milton's cosmos and the middle+right are then indicating a specific system within "the pendant ball", the lights possibly suggesting the middle outer ring is the system star. Could be the system containing Raxxla?

Could be this, though.

Edit
I'm considering it as a star (either binary, or perhaps with a single asteroid belt) then 6 planets. The fifth being a double-ringed GG. Anyone fancy a body search (Spansh??) to see if it matches any system within the bubble?

Or this.

I've been trying to figure out how to get Spansh to search broadly for systems, rather than along a specific path. It's not gone well.

Applying more coffee.

 

[selbie]

It's very easy to see a planetary system when the horizontal arrangement aligns with what we typically see in the System Map.
If we are looking at it through the Milton Cosmos model, then it would help to view it according to existing published diagrams out there that MB / FDev would have drawn inspiration from, and around which we have built this theory.

From this perspective, it is possible the symbolism is dealing with either the composition of the Empyrean, perhaps the Heaven of Heaven and the "waters above the firmament" ?

... OR
It is extrapolating a 2 dimensional map of the path from Heaven stepping down into the 10 Cosmic Spheres - represented by the 10 lights (?).

If we are following strictly what the path is connecting to, you could infer it passes through:
1. Primum Mobile
2. Crystalline Sphere
3. Sphere of Fixed Stars
4. Sphere of Saturn
5. Sphere of Jupiter
6. This would lead to the reddish circle being Mars?? around which the path encircles, which then progresses to
7. The Sun.

I'm not sure if that makes any sense relating to anything, however if the red circle represents the Earth then the water component could represent the "oceans below" in mythological terms and therefore the path is leading to the underworld, hence my earlier theory that the doorways or "Gates of Hell" loop this pathway back to the Milton Cosmos circle where the doorway leads directly into Hell.

 

[Han_Zen]

It's very easy to see a planetary system when the horizontal arrangement aligns with what we typically see in the System Map.
If we are looking at it through the Milton Cosmos model, then it would help to view it according to existing published diagrams out there that MB / FDev would have drawn inspiration from, and around which we have built this theory.

View attachment 387068

From this perspective, it is possible the symbolism is dealing with either the composition of the Empyrean, perhaps the Heaven of Heaven and the "waters above the firmament" ?

... OR
It is extrapolating a 2 dimensional map of the path from Heaven stepping down into the 10 Cosmic Spheres - represented by the 10 lights (?).
View attachment 387071
If we are following strictly what the path is connecting to, you could infer it passes through:
1. Primum Mobile
2. Crystalline Sphere
3. Sphere of Fixed Stars
4. Sphere of Saturn
5. Sphere of Jupiter
6. This would lead to the reddish circle being Mars?? around which the path encircles, which then progresses to
7. The Sun.

I'm not sure if that makes any sense relating to anything, however if the red circle represents the Earth then the water component could represent the "oceans below" in mythological terms and therefore the path is leading to the underworld, hence my earlier theory that the doorways or "Gates of Hell" loop this pathway back to the Milton Cosmos circle where the doorway leads directly into Hell.

I think the traditional numbering is inner sphere to outer. Like this one:

 

[Rochester]

Please remember however, Milton did not employ the ‘classic model’ 100%, he actually adapted and embellished it to his needs, the outer spheres differ significantly from earlier examples of this theory.

 

[Rochester]

I think we need a horticulturist

Messing about with filters to see if there is any hidden detail and noticed this series of red bushes which seem to snake through the garden, could these be an indication Sinn and Deaths viaduct?

Granted I feel it’s technically in the wrong location. But how far do we want to take these theories?

However I do wonder if a horticulturalist could identify these plants?

For instance, are these red bushes ‘thorn bushes’, is the large green tree an Oak or an Ash (Yggdrasil), are the long thin green trees Cedars!

Not currently in game, but seriously now want go visit one of these and get some close up photos of this garden to see what ‘details’ might be hidden.

I’m my humble opinion the ‘Cedars’ could be important, either as map markers or landmarks. Cedars (if they are - they might not be), were a very holy tree. In the garden I think they denote a marker, eg the Third circle is inside the second, the Second circle is inside the first.

Eg
First circle = Milton’s Universe, it shows the pendant globe just below the Empyrean, in game our Sol based on my model is at the centre of the zone of Chaos.
Second circle = Pendant Globe aka the system Raxxla is in, a visual clue to how many bodies there-in, I speculate the 10 lights are likely another reference to the spheres. But not for us to travel through, this is not Sol. It could be a system with either 5 bodies or 4 bodies.
Third circle = the body where Raxxla is/around/on, potentially with a ring and 1 moon?

Cedars of God - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[selbie]

Yes I had wondered if there was a layered effect of it 'zooming' into the aspects we need to look for. Maybe a ELW or Water world with a moon? or Raxxla orbiting this world

Wow, sometimes youtube recommendations are spookily accurate... ambient video of said station standing within the Milton Garden

 

[Han_Zen]

Please remember however, Milton did not employ any classic model, he actually adapted them to his needs, the outer spheres different from earlier examples of this theory.

Milton tells the same story as Greek mythology. There once was as war where the defeated party(fallen angels or Titans and monsters) gets set to a celestial prison. The victorious party then devotes some time to earth and humans. Both heaven / Olympos and Hell / Tartarus are accessible via some kind of magic portal.
The portal(s) are occasionally used by both the victorious and the defeated to mess a bit with humans. The losers are usually swiftly dealt with and sent back to their prisons, when they do.

All these stories seem to happen in the approximate period of 10,000 to 4,000 BC and seem to spread along with the agricultural revolution.

In 3310 we know a bit more about the non-human history of the galaxy. We might guess who the winners and the losers the mythical war was. No matter who they were, we can be pretty certain they had hyperspace capability. In order to need a portal / gateway, heel has to be well locked by some phenomenon or really far away.

If the portal / gateway of mythology is the same as the alien construct / omphalos rift on Raxxla, it is possible for those who know where it is to put hints in space.
Both Milton and the Greeks basically tells us that the gateway is straight up. That is't very helpful, as we don't know the direction of up. We also don't know how far up.

We could guess. For example we could say that the Regor sector is a reasonable direction for up. The Guardians who lived there were defeated in a great purge. Perhaps some survivors were locked up somewhere? It's still just guessing.

What we need is for mythology, hints in space (and codex) and the alien history to align. Then we might find something.

 

[SpaceGoblin]

It so happens I'm at Artemis Lodge Station in Celaeno, waiting on my exploration Sidey to be delivered, and it's a Garden Coriolis, so, here goes.

For instance, are these red bushes ‘thorn bushes’, is the large green green an Oak or an Ash (Yggdrasil), are the long thin green trees Cedars!

I'm no botanist, but that tree looks more in profile like an Ash than an Oak, but more on that later.

The bushes could be thorn bushes - a quick google shows that Photinia's have a common enough red leafed variety, and Photinia are related to Rosaceae - roses, brambles and other thorny things. So, on the basis of such asuperficial search, could be. Maybe.

Cedars (if they are - they might not be), were a very holy tree. In the garden I think they denote a marker, eg the Third circle is inside the second, the Second circle is inside the first.

Another quick googling shows there are a number of cedar varieties that look similar to ornamental conifers, so could be.

Eg
First circle = Milton’s Universe, it shows the pendant globe just below the Empyrean, in game our Sol based on my model is at the centre of the zone of Chaos.
Second circle = Pendant Globe aka the system Raxxla is in, a visual clue to how many bodies there-in, I speculate the 10 lights are likely another reference to the spheres. But not for us to travel through, this is not Sol. It could be a system with either 5 bodies or 4 bodies.
Third circle = the body where Raxxla is/around/on.

I had similar thoughts about that sort of reading when @selbie posted their vertically rotated image earlier.

Wow, sometimes youtube recommendations are spookily accurate... ambient video of said station standing within the Milton Garden

Heh, yeah. And the opening of that video shows something I noted when taking some pictures in responce to @Rochester 's musing - the 'Garden Map' appears more than once inside that station, as it does in Artemis Lodge, and possibly in different locations within the stations (I'll have to look more closely later).

So now the pictures (spoiler tagged for future scrolling convenience, since they're big and there's several):

Spoiler: Station in Selbie's linked video - showing duplicate 'Station Gardens'.

Spoiler: Garden from the small circle usally shown on the right side. Duplicate Garden circled.

Spoiler: Garden, looking at the 'red bush trail'. 'Cedar' in foreground.

Note also the tiny detail of flowers in the grass!

Spoiler: Garden from by Oak/Ash tree - viewing across rest of garden.

In the last image, circled on the right, are leaves from the Oak/Ash tree - they look more like Oak leaves than Ash leaves. They suffer from a lack of real detail - indeed whilst the gardens look great from our ship cockpits, and hold up pretty well close in tbh, they do look like they where not really intended to be scrutinised this close up.

Hope that helps - sure helped me kill time - my ship just arrived

EDIT: To fix typos. So many typos.

 

[Rochester]

The existence of an oak/ash in that first circle may - if intentional, marry with my Yggdrasil hypothesis.

In game the network of the Yggdrasil systems does straddle the Miltonian model, it’s base in the Otherworld, it’s top within the Empyrean, again at most the garden may have originally just been a marker that literally drew out what’s was in game and it was intended towards orienting us (grant this likely now is all archeological).

But this bush theory is likely is a step too far into tin-foil territory and likely twaddle. I suspect if this overall garden concept was related - which I believe it was, the placement of the paths etc likely is the only relevance, as one ought to presume one could interpret the design without all the information, It purely is dependent upon on how pedantic the Devs were, or their sense of humour.

I do wonder what we lost when they axed the missions.

 

[SpaceGoblin]

The existence of an oak/ash in that first circle may - if intentional, marry with my Yggdrasil hypothesis.

In game it does straddle the Miltonian model, it’s base in the Otherworld, it’s top within the Empyrean, again at most it may just be a marker that literally draws out what’s in game and states X is here!

Don't forget, I'm no botanist, just some nerd on the internet with a search bar and some time to kill

That said, don't worry about if it is or not, or try to second guess if it's intentional - just roll with it and see where it takes you.

Most of the time it won't pan out, but maybe this'll be the one that leads to Raxxla

 

[Rochester]

To lighten the mood, here’s one of my current favourite depictions of the Morning Star.

Source: https://youtu.be/8Uxnpc-JQ3o?si=_yms7A2NLsxNDv6Y

 

[SpaceGoblin]

To lighten the mood, here’s my favourite depiction of Morning Star.

Roflmao!

Raxxla full of chocolate bars - confirmed!

 

[SpaceGoblin]

But this bush theory is likely is a step too far into tin-foil territory and likely twaddle. I suspect if this overall garden concept was related - which I believe it was, the placement of the paths etc likely is the only relevance, as one ought to presume one could interpret the design without all the information, It purely is dependent upon on how pedantic the Devs were, or their sense of humour.

Oh hey, you edited stuff in later - yeah, I tend to lean towards less complex 'readings'.

My current feelings about the Garden design we've been discussing so much is that it represents a system map, with the Miltonian Diagram that is the star/first planet a nod from MB to say 'yeah, this is me, giving you a clue'.

Given MB's fondness for Milton, I suspect the right place to look is somewhere with a Milton related name.

I do wonder what we lost when they axed the missions.

Indeed. I never got to play them, despite playing since (just!) Beta.

I really should get 'round to reading what info is available on them.

Always so much more to do!

 

[El Saico]

More Nordic runes!

As the Shui Wei sector doesn't pass the smell test to me at all (why have both it and ICZ? why center on Achenar, which is not even part of its namesake? why such an obscure asterism, especially compared to the much more famous Beidou?), I made some calculations for a tentative "hell's gate" - all systems within 10ly of its border, both in and out, ordered by distance to Sol.

One of the names that caught my attention was Punraz - which reminded me of an earlier discussion about how on a similarly-named system (whose name of course I forgot) the initial "P" seemed to stand for the "Th" rune, Þ.
So this could very well be the case too, let's take a look at the Norse pantheon... and well, here's Thor:

Besides Old Norse Þórr, the deity occurs in Old English as Þunor ("Thunor"), in Old Frisian as Thuner, in Old Saxon as Thunar, and in Old High German as Donar, all ultimately stemming from the Proto-Germanic theonym *Þun(a)raz, meaning 'Thunder'.

EDIT: ...also not far from it is a system named after a certain Mesoamerican storm god who's best known as a Titan, Cocijo.

 

[Rochester]

Punraz - a great find, yes a thunder deity; many thanks, I’ve since added it to my list of Rune systems. It too does fall upon that same boundary circumference of my hypothetical zone of Chaos, so does your Cocijo.

This area is denoted by various systems all with a shared naming after storms, thunder, lightning or bad weather etc.they all form a perfect bubble around Sol and don’t extend any further out. I’ve identified this area as being the Miltonian zone for Chaos.

 

[Jorki Rasalas]

It so happens I'm at Artemis Lodge Station in Celaeno, waiting on my exploration Sidey to be delivered, and it's a Garden Coriolis, so, here goes.



I'm no botanist, but that tree looks more in profile like an Ash than an Oak, but more on that later.

The bushes could be thorn bushes - a quick google shows that Photinia's have a common enough red leafed variety, and Photinia are related to Rosaceae - roses, brambles and other thorny things. So, on the basis of such asuperficial search, could be. Maybe.



Another quick googling shows there are a number of cedar varieties that look similar to ornamental conifers, so could be.



I had similar thoughts about that sort of reading when @selbie posted their vertically rotated image earlier.



Heh, yeah. And the opening of that video shows something I noted when taking some pictures in responce to @Rochester 's musing - the 'Garden Map' appears more than once inside that station, as it does in Artemis Lodge, and possibly in different locations within the stations (I'll have to look more closely later).

So now the pictures (spoiler tagged for future scrolling convenience, since they're big and there's several):

Spoiler: Station in Selbie's linked video - showing duplicate 'Station Gardens'.

View attachment 387086

Spoiler: Garden from the small circle usally shown on the right side. Duplicate Garden circled.

View attachment 387088

Spoiler: Garden, looking at the 'red bush trail'. 'Cedar' in foreground.

View attachment 387089
Note also the tiny detail of flowers in the grass!

Spoiler: Garden from by Oak/Ash tree - viewing across rest of garden.

View attachment 387090

In the last image, circled on the right, are leaves from the Oak/Ash tree - they look more like Oak leaves than Ash leaves. They suffer from a lack of real detail - indeed whilst the gardens look great from our ship cockpits, and hold up pretty well close in tbh, they do look like they where not really intended to be scrutinised this close up.

Hope that helps - sure helped me kill time - my ship just arrived

EDIT: To fix typos. So many typos.

Good job! wish I could give you more likes for that post!!!

The tall trees do look like cedars or maybe cypress. Photinia does have red (new) leaves but doesn't have thorns; those bushes look more like Pyracantha (firethorn) to me with red berries...

@SpaceGoblin : I've long urged the use in this thread of the scientific method; cross-checking of hypotheses and evidence, gathering evidence, questioning lines of reasoning, and testing of ideas are essential to improving our understanding. That's some useful evidence gathering! So, those "short straight paths" are actually benches!

@Rochester how far do we take theories? As far as necessary to be able to make predictions which can be tested. It's that testing which allows us to decide which are useful (theories) models and which are not that is the only way to better understanding. To paraphrase Indana Jones, "science Is the search for Fact ... not Truth. If it's Truth you're interested in, Dr. Tyree's philosophy class is right down the hall."

I noticed from @SpaceGoblin 's third pic that there is use of height in the garden layout, which might be meaningful, the middle part seems be slightly sunken- I think we need a closer view of that specific garden design. Maybe in three pics to see the detail.

 

[Jorki Rasalas]

Oh hey, you edited stuff in later - yeah, I tend to lean towards less complex 'readings'.

My current feelings about the Garden design we've been discussing so much is that it represents a system map, with the Miltonian Diagram that is the star/first planet a nod from MB to say 'yeah, this is me, giving you a clue'.

Given MB's fondness for Milton, I suspect the right place to look is somewhere with a Milton related name.


Indeed. I never got to play them, despite playing since (just!) Beta.

I really should get 'round to reading what info is available on them.

Always so much more to do!

Macros has useful info on first page of this thread!

I still suspect they were deleted because they weren't relevant and just too much obfuscation; they might have been part of a related TDW storyline which was deleted on same grounds...but then why did FD leave TDW bit in the codex???

 

[Rochester]

Good job! wish I could give you more likes for that post!!!

The tall trees do look like cedars or maybe cypress. Photinia does have red (new) leaves but doesn't have thorns; those bushes look more like Pyracantha (firethorn) to me with red berries...

@SpaceGoblin : I've long urged the use in this thread of the scientific method; cross-checking of hypotheses and evidence, gathering evidence, questioning lines of reasoning, and testing of ideas are essential to improving our understanding. That's some useful evidence gathering! So, those "short straight paths" are actually benches!

@Rochester how far do we take theories? As far as necessary to be able to make predictions which can be tested. It's that testing which allows us to decide which are useful (theories) models and which are not that is the only way to better understanding. To paraphrase Indana Jones, "science Is the search for Fact ... not Truth. If it's Truth you're interested in, Dr. Tyree's philosophy class is right down the hall."

I noticed from @SpaceGoblin 's third pic that there is use of height in the garden layout, which might be meaningful, the middle part seems be slightly sunken- I think we need a closer view of that specific garden design. Maybe in three pics to see the detail.

Agreed, there has been some brilliant insight recently. Only sense checking myself to make sure I had sufficient tin-foil protection.

Everyone’s input recently has been highly insightful.

Last night I visited a nearby tourism system and the first thing that stood out was that garden design, it was rather a beautiful moment. I spent a good half hour just wandering around the station in free-cam mode, it was very lovely, I’d forgotten how beautiful and wonderfully designed these stations are, they’re a triumph.

I can confirm those are benches yes, and yes the central circle does seem to be sunken, giving the effect one would step down into that area, which considering the implied meaning makes perfect sense.

None of the other gardens struck me with the same level of familiarity, and yes all the gardens appeared at least twice in my instance, not one of them seemed to have prominence over the other.

I’m still docked there. I’ll try and test the instances to assess if the positions are fixed or procedural. But I hazard a guess towards the later.