Oh hey, you edited stuff in later - yeah, I tend to lean towards less complex 'readings'.

My current feelings about the Garden design we've been discussing so much is that it represents a system map, with the Miltonian Diagram that is the star/first planet a nod from MB to say 'yeah, this is me, giving you a clue'.

Given MB's fondness for Milton, I suspect the right place to look is somewhere with a Milton related name.


Indeed. I never got to play them, despite playing since (just!) Beta.

I really should get 'round to reading what info is available on them.

Always so much more to do! :LOL:
Macros has useful info on first page of this thread! 😉

I still suspect they were deleted because they weren't relevant and just too much obfuscation; they might have been part of a related TDW storyline which was deleted on same grounds...but then why did FD leave TDW bit in the codex???
 
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Good job! wish I could give you more likes for that post!!!

The tall trees do look like cedars or maybe cypress. Photinia does have red (new) leaves but doesn't have thorns; those bushes look more like Pyracantha (firethorn) to me with red berries...

@SpaceGoblin : I've long urged the use in this thread of the scientific method; cross-checking of hypotheses and evidence, gathering evidence, questioning lines of reasoning, and testing of ideas are essential to improving our understanding. That's some useful evidence gathering! So, those "short straight paths" are actually benches! 😎

@Rochester how far do we take theories? As far as necessary to be able to make predictions which can be tested. It's that testing which allows us to decide which are useful (theories) models and which are not that is the only way to better understanding. To paraphrase Indana Jones, "science Is the search for Fact ... not Truth. If it's Truth you're interested in, Dr. Tyree's philosophy class is right down the hall." 😁

I noticed from @SpaceGoblin 's third pic that there is use of height in the garden layout, which might be meaningful, the middle part seems be slightly sunken- I think we need a closer view of that specific garden design. Maybe in three pics to see the detail.

Agreed, there has been some brilliant insight recently. Only sense checking myself to make sure I had sufficient tin-foil protection.

Everyone’s input recently has been highly insightful.

Last night I visited a nearby tourism system and the first thing that stood out was that garden design, it was rather a beautiful moment. I spent a good half hour just wandering around the station in free-cam mode, it was very lovely, I’d forgotten how beautiful and wonderfully designed these stations are, they’re a triumph.

I can confirm those are benches yes, and yes the central circle does seem to be sunken, giving the effect one would step down into that area, which considering the implied meaning makes perfect sense.

None of the other gardens struck me with the same level of familiarity, and yes all the gardens appeared at least twice in my instance, not one of them seemed to have prominence over the other.

I’m still docked there. I’ll try and test the instances to assess if the positions are fixed or procedural. But I hazard a guess towards the later.
 
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Nope. But free-cam mode allows you a great deal of freedom. As posted by others, it’s evident these gardens up close, have a limited level of definition, so likely only ever made initially to be viewed from a distance?
 
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Nope. But free-cam mode allows you a great deal of freedom. As posted by others, it’s evident these gardens up close, have a limited level of definition, so likely only ever made initially to be viewed from a distance?
Yep, since it's been in-game from gamma (or so) Raxxla ought not to be on planetary surface, since landings only came in partly via Horizons and more so in Odyssey. So makes sense for any potential map to it to be intended to be seen from a ship.
 
Is it only Tourism economy orbis/ocellus stations that have this garden?
Time to check all the hab rings of all the megaships! :D
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OK, at Sol/Earth/Li Qing Jao (Station)
"To the jewel that burns on the brow of the mother of galaxies!
To the whisperer in witch-space, the siren of the deepest void!
The parent's grief, the lover's woe, and the yearning of our vagabond hearts. To Raxxla!"
" Sol is the birthplace of our race, the shining jewel of our galaxy" Simguru Pranav Antal, Galnet 14 JUN 3301 (a very early clue! MB making "things a little bit obvious")

So, my current interpretation is:
Jewel=Sol/Earth
Whisperer/Siren of deepest void (i.e. Space)=Li Qing Jao (inventor/expert in esoteric knowledge/=whisperer") of FSD, which enabled space travel via witchspace)
Li Qing Jao has the gardens, one of which contains a representation of Milton's Paradise Lost cosmology and rest of that garden may be a map to finding Raxxla.
(God the Father's grief at Adam & Eve's transgression & their woe on expulsion (they became homeless vagabonds) from Garden of Eden

Other clues we know of are from the Codex and as @Rochester has shown relate to Milton's cosmology.
 
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My current theory of the toast is.

"To the jewel that burns on the brow of the mother of galaxies!”

Identifies the goals location contextually in line with the Miltonian model mapped out in game, the pendant globe, hanging from a golden chain under the Empyrean, just below or upon the outer rim of Chaos - the womb of nature.

I believe its general location is upon the north western side of the outer circumference of Chaos. This is based upon the orientational markers given in Paradise Lost of the exact location of Paradise associated with the Western gate of the Empyrean. I believe someplace along an axis between Thetis and Siren.

The axis for true north as I’ve identified previously is likely surrounded by systems named after Sun gods associated as being the most northern. This might tie-in with the concept of the Empyrean as being the only source of light in that model.

“To the whisperer in witch-space”

In this instance it might be telling us of the Thetis incident, but I think that was a nudge to give this area more prominence, it’s evident the gen-ships were part of the ‘Missing’ update in 2016, so the Thetis incident has been in game prior to the Codex to qualify.

Likewise Thetis is very close to the Northern aspect of the zone of Chaos identified in game.

“the siren of the deepest void”

This I believe is literally the system Siren, it is slap bang in the middle of a triangulation midpoint made up of various systems Brookes mentioned in his Drabbles. It also aligns with a line of sight through the Norse Norns. It’s also along a weird axis drawn by the alignment of Shibboleth which likewise seems aligned with the Brookes tours, a coincidence?

Those last verses both I believe are potentially locational markers that identify 1 axis. And essentially this is the core of the toast, it’s actually giving us, 4 locations, that together form 2 axis, with Raxxla at the midpoint?

“The parent's grief, the lover's woe”

Currently no idea of where this identifies but I believe again this identifies 2 other systems, and that they potentially identify a second axis to be used in conjunction with the first?

I speculate given Thetis and Sirens relative positions those might represent the East and West axis. Is it then possible this second axis is a reference to North and South alignment, so it could indicate those other two systems are relatively above and below the others?

One potential candidate for ‘parents grief’ could be Chronos, which has an obvious link to the Codex due to the use of the term Omphalos. I’d considered it previously but had no other reference points until now to give it enough credibility, it is also in the right location, about half way between Thetis and Siren respectively!

“the yearning of our vagabond hearts. To Raxxla!"

A return to the start of the toast, but re-emphasising it as the goal of the protagonist Satan who was actually described in the verse as being a lost wanderer. This I feel gives great context to the first verse as it might be advocating that we identify potential markers in game for Satans journey?

These I believe are in order in game, the systems Fall, Pandemonium, Bridge, Nyx (Chaos); then upwards to the Empyrean, then to the Pendant globe?

But there are other possibilities - which I have of mind, but which dont tally with this at all.

It remains a mystery - to this day!
 
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The Paradise Garden central/right-hand parts might be intended as system layout, but a thought has just occurred that the wide outermost ring/path of the central part (illuminated by 10 lights) might be viewed as a star or might be viewed as a partial cut view into a "golden pendant ball". Does that golden ball have any matching internal structure according to Milton? (I'm really not into mythology or poetry!). MB said "Raxxla is very difficult to find", so I wouldn't be at all surprised if this garden design turned out to be solely a clue to Milton's cosmology and then we are supposed to pursue that through MB's implementation in the ED game (system naming/placement).
 
I don’t believe FD has replicated the pendant globe precisely, that part may just be allegorical in game.

Technically the globe was our entire universe held within with an outer sphere, a solid crystalline shell, with an opening at its apex. Inside was another sphere which effectively was the entire physical universe we know of, filled with other stars and even other life giving planets called other Edens. Then the solar system at its centre, denoting the other classical spheres our planet’s. Then at the centre the Sun.

Milton was brilliant because there are verses that describe Satan orbiting the Earth, seeing the sun set and rise respectively as he orbits. It’s rather astonishing.

I do believe the second circle denotes the system where Raxxla is. I feel the lights are a metaphor for these spheres. The way the circle is recessed into the ground, denotes a person would set down into the location. Much like Satan did at the apex portal.
 
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Going from the @selbie post (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/the-quest-to-find-raxxla.168253/post-10334951) above I was wondering if the central part (four circles) of the Paradise Garden might represent Underworld, Earth, Garden of Eden (which I thought was supposed to be on Earth) and ????.

From Wikipedia "In the poem, the Garden of Eden is both human and divine: while it is located on earth at the top of Mt. Purgatory, it also serves as the gateway to the heavens." The rightmost small circle, almost out of the central large circle, might be the gateway??

I'm trying to decide if the central and rightmost parts of the design are actual location clues, or just further allegory.
 
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Technically the earth was there, although it’s not directly expanded upon centrally, just commonly accepted I recall? At the centre of the pendant globe theres our solar system, Earth was a planet as Satan is described as orbiting it.

Think of the pendant globe like a galactic sized Tardis.

Eden was a sort of mountain or hill, originally the true North Pole, where the chain took root, it was surrounded by a raised area, a natural wall in which Cedars grew.

Satan landed just outside of the garden on Mount Niphates, left his shield and then jumped over the wall.

After the second fall God moved paradise off the Earth and into and above the Empyrean, which was his plan all along, Eden being the new heaven. Earth was left behind, only linked to Hell by Satans viaduct.

Personally I feel the second circle represents the system Raxxla is in, the system is the pendant globe.

Raxxla is Eden inside that system, denoted by the ring of Cedars… in Paradise Lost, Eden is actually described as being encircled by Cedars!

The last circle I believe is a body… from there - I don’t know. But I think the biggest element is the second circle. As it might help identify how many bodies are in that system.

Source: https://youtu.be/pvnKXOGYKM8?si=0mWoZF4FQXqwn0Bg
 
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Ah, but is the rightmost circle of that middle part, lying on the perimeter of the circle, actually meant to represent Heaven's Gate and the rightmost part of the Garden meant to represent Heaven and God's Throne?
 
Ah, but is the rightmost circle of that middle part, lying on the perimeter of the circle, actually meant to represent Heaven's Gate and the rightmost part of the Garden meant to represent Heaven and God's Throne?
No in my opinion - no. But it might - it depends upon your interpretation of the text.

Heavens gate in Paradise Lost from my understanding, was on the West side of the Empyrean (Heaven). The pendant globe hung just off from that location but not from my understanding directly under it.

The gate could only be entered via a long retractable stair. They were not directly over the pendant globe. The globe hung from the brow or ridge that encircled the Empyrean.

Gods throne was a mountain at the centre of the Empyrean, it had roads, lakes rivers, and archangels even had houses and days off (I sh*t thee not - it’s really in there - crazy right).

Paradise aka Eden was a construct that existed always ’outside’ of heaven.

So in my opinion the garden design is of a system, which sits somewhere technically below the zone ascribed in game as the Empyrean, either upon the outer rim of Chaos (the storm gods) or just inside it.

But that’s my academic understanding of the text taking in several contextual references by various authors - that seems to be the accepted version. Brookes however, could have interpreted it completely differently.
 
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