Powerplay 2.0 deep dive - Frontier Live 27th March

Thats the point you miss- because NPCs are so weak it allows solo and PG to be the most efficient route to do anything.

They do have strong NPC - but they choose not to use them
Why?
Maybe because the vast majority of players are flying crap ships that are in real danger from the current types of NPCs? Could be.

I'd argue to that Powerplay was designed for PvP Open first, given that you have explicit pledges, defined territory, real time feedback, and 1:1 effort (in that, one player can make all the difference but also can lose the cycle, and be stopped directly if it all lines up)

Everything you mention works as good if not better in PG or even in Solo.
If Open gets deleted from the game tomorrow, BGS and PP will work as good if not better - simply because people will focus on activities that matter for BGS/PP and not roam the system in G5 murderboats trying to get a kill.
 
They do have strong NPC - but they choose not to use them
Why?
Maybe because the vast majority of players are flying crap ships that are in real danger from the current types of NPCs? Could be.
Or more that after eight years of power creep from engineers and buffs PPs design is outmoded. IIRC combat expansions are old CZs, and no PP NPC has engineering. Even against feeble G1 engineering they are toast.

Everything you mention works as good if not better in PG or even in Solo.
If Open gets deleted from the game tomorrow, BGS and PP will work as good if not better - simply because people will focus on activities that matter for BGS/PP and not roam the system in G5 murderboats trying to get a kill.
Why would I need to know in PG what someone else is carrying / doing in PP since everyone is friendly?

If I see an Antal pledge with a bounty in Harma, I know they are up to no good from PPs features. They serve no purpose in Solo or PG.

Open in the BGS is (as I stated) pointless. In PP its not, if only PP could decide what it wants to be.
 
Or more that after eight years of power creep from engineers and buffs PPs design is outmoded. IIRC combat expansions are old CZs, and no PP NPC has engineering. Even against feeble G1 engineering they are toast.

You know, I'd never considered this before. But then again, I don't enjoy combat farming even in my most pew-pew moods, so it was easy for me to overlook. ;)
 
What I want to know is if you'll lose all your progress with one power if you defect to another or just quit, or if it keeps your progress in the background.
I would suggest lose it, but perhaps it would depend on how friendly the two powers were. But a straight lose it would be simplest.
 
You know, I'd never considered this before. But then again, I don't enjoy combat farming even in my most pew-pew moods, so it was easy for me to overlook. ;)
I don't mind it if its not the sole thing required all the time. Hopefully (and it sounds like it has) expansion hauling and UM have been reigned in a tad, and that general activity has been boosted to round it all out. Given too the reward structure which is long term and designed to reward loyalty (and eight years of BGS progress) putting the pieces together suggests PP V2 is more do what you like.
 
Maybe it's just me, but I saw some mention of sabotage. I wonder what it will look like in PP2.0?

I remember a long time ago in some MMORPG people engaged in sabotage, joined the ranks of the opposite side and under the guise of allies to harm their side (in other words, organized sabotage).
 
Maybe it's just me, but I saw some mention of sabotage. I wonder what it will look like in PP2.0?

I remember a long time ago in some MMORPG people engaged in sabotage, joined the ranks of the opposite side and under the guise of allies to harm their side (in other words, organized sabotage).
No, that sounds too close to 5C. In last nights stream I think they mean attack and mess up Stronghold FC support vessels and wreak havoc in systems you are UMing.
 
No, that sounds too close to 5C. In last nights stream I think they mean attack and mess up Stronghold FC support vessels and wreak havoc in systems you are UMing.
I understand, but what you're describing is not sabotage. A saboteur is no different from anyone else until he commits his sabotage.
 
FWIW, they did ask us players to discuss the pro and cons of open only PP..

From my point of view:

  • Pros:
    • the possibility of exciting PvP encounters
  • Cons:
    • Wrong Networking architecture for this kind of gameplay
    • Instancing rules favors friends list first, connectivity second, and adversarial PvP not at all
    • Instancing can easily be overridden by common security practices, let alone deliberate “sabotage”
    • A sizable increase in the number of players who are simply not fun to play with, resulting in fewer players overall.
    • A smaller overall PowerPlayerbase may result in the delay of badly needed updates and balance passes
      • How much smaller depends upon the age old question: “If every faction claims that they bravely do their activities in Open, while everyone else does theirs in Solo,” is this because everyone’s a hypocrite, or is the instancing simply that bad? Hint: it’s the latter.
 
Essentially PP will become a more strategic version of BGS faction warfare / expansion, as well as providing actual rewards for spreading the power (unlike factions). UM / fortification is ongoing and (I'm guessing) concatenates UM / fortify (better termed reinforcement) with a sliding scale of ownership (stronghold > fortified > exploited > unoccupied) all in one (allowing singular systems to be sniped and possibly cause a chain reaction of failiures leading to more loss). Occupied PP systems support each other and isolation is bad- so a big improvement coceptually from V1.

IIRC this will be similar to today but not as punishing and have more context- so you'll have a set of 5 missions / tasks to prove loyalty, some A to B (to establish expansions / unoccupied > exploited) and then (and this is where it was not clear / my internet started going funny) you can improve exploited > fortified > stronghold via BGS faction level gameplay (?). UM is doing the tasks listed (like PP FCs have ways to sabotage the support ships) and I got the impression ripping factions apart will help that- one of the devs did say that most (but not all) BGS work is recognised and has hooks into PP V2 (he was asked regards EDO content and stated yes, it has an effect).
I hope that they include BGS level gameplay into powerplay. It what I have been saying should be happening for ages. More integration, proper change throughout the galaxy, visual changes. I'm liking what I am seeing. I'd prefer if they keep solo and private groups being able to play m, but just have open play reward you more. Give an incentive for direct PvP. But people who prefer to be alone can still contribute.
 
I'm afraid I'm still predicting mountain ranges of salt. FD may well (from what they're saying) try to make some element of PP2 Open-only. But given their record on "expected gameplay" they'll probably overlook easy work-arounds such as flying and docking in Solo and relogging to Open to hand stuff in, or blocking everyone on the other "side", or fiddling router settings to disallow P2P connections. (That last sounds exotic, but there will be easy guides to doing it on Reddit about five seconds after an incentive to do it arises). The "it's not working like was promised" agony will be very loud.

Well, I've never tried PP. I might be tempted to give it a go if they make it look interesting. At any rate, I'd like to try out those fun Packhounds. :)
I've done it twice, for Cytoscramblers and Pacifiers. Considered Pack Hounds but NPCs don't seem to have significant missile defences normally.
I stayed out on the fringes of the Bubble and rarely saw anyone during those two months despite being in Open.
Watching the powers from the sidelines their focus made little sense to me. I didn't feel inclined to join the Cmdrs in the centre and once I had the ability to buy the guns I was glad to get out of there.
I now find myself contemplating the same thing again with my alt. Though I'm also curious regarding the carriers.
It's not impossible to stay out of the way while 'module shopping ' but I don't think that's what was intended and those less inclined to log into Open are going feel excluded.
Thus the modules should be passed to the Tech brokers to avoid that conflict of interests.
I know we've discussed this before, more than once but as I see it that would be the principle barrier to Open Only.
If the PP enthusiasts are serious about going that way the modules are the key.
 
That said, huzzah! Lots of welcome changes here. It is apparent they are acutely aware of how terrible the current system is and are truly attempting to address it in a meaningful way.
Yeah I was super impressed by the tone around this and it seemed pretty real. It was also obvious (as others have commented already) that they are picking up the genuine messages from the forum, Reddit, whatever - FDev are listening!
After some thought I don't mind too much they're gonna plop it in as is, as far as open is concerned, and see what happens.
When Luke explained how they would release, I listened with my software engineering ears on, and yes absolutely it makes sense to split the changes this way. I personally suspect they will go open-only in a later release, but putting that in on day one AND dealing with finding all the gaps in the PP 2.0 subsystem itself is toooooo much.

So yes it is a chance to get real feedback from players, but it's also a chance to break one huge game-breaking change into two parts, which is always a little bit less painful... and this way FDev can claim they listened to players based on real feedback.

Whereas just changing it to open-only now would get lost in the noise, especially with all the noise about ARX and pre-builts going on at the same time.
 
  • How much smaller depends upon the age old question: “If every faction claims that they bravely do their activities in Open, while everyone else does theirs in Solo,” is this because everyone’s a hypocrite, or is the instancing simply that bad? Hint: it’s the latter.

Ah, that has cracked me up before.

I remember a forum battle between two PP factions, where both claimed the other side was hiding in PG/solo while their brave warriors were all in Open.

I do wonder whether both sides were telling the truth about their side, that all their people were in open, and it was just the networking that was messing with them, or whether the majority were actually in PG/solo despite their claims.

I will say this in favour of the open only position (and you won't find me doing that normally) is that it would either show that some people belong in the "liar liar pants on fire" camp or that FD's architecture is such that even if everyone is in open, you won't actually notice any difference.

I suspect the latter. I do believe most were in open in that forum flame war that happened. I've been in open for the last few weeks, running around doing various missions in alliance space, and haven't seen a single other commander.
 
I sent my alt down to Harma this morning to familiarise them with the system with a view to signing up for Cytoscramblers if things go belly up. I've seen one other Cmdr all day.
 
I remember a forum battle between two PP factions, where both claimed the other side was hiding in PG/solo while their brave warriors were all in Open.

I do wonder whether both sides were telling the truth about their side, that all their people were in open, and it was just the networking that was messing with them, or whether the majority were actually in PG/solo despite their claims.
Going further off topic here, but this brings up something I've been meaning to ask about specifically. My previous inquiries around organized PvP just mentioned the San Tu star system. From my perspective looking at this game and its unique situation, I would assume that at least two big groups of players interested in PvP combat would grassroots organize using Powerplay or BGS factions to enjoy ongoing pew pews with each other.

Does the p2p networking in this game truly fight against players that hard? Do folks in this hypothetical need to be located relatively close regionally, friend everyone from the opposing team and/or muck around with port forwarding in order to facilitate & stabilize this type of larger scale group activity?

I imagine similar community run events like group exploration and races suffer the same cruel fate?
 
Instancing is definitely a funny thing. I dropped by the invasion in Nu Guang around (Titan) Raijin a few hours ago and immediately found quite a few players around the attacked surface port, for quite a chaotic experience. But, mostly, a stable instance bar occasional teleports of Interceptors and Glaives.

Other times... I could be around an invaded system I knew for sure I'd have a good chance at finding others yet I'd go through the entire CZ loop and both Hydras without anybody showing up.
 
Does the p2p networking in this game truly fight against players that hard? Do folks in this hypothetical need to be located relatively close regionally, friend everyone from the opposing team and/or muck around with port forwarding in order to facilitate & stabilize this type of larger scale group activity?

Every single test I and others have done, and every anecdote I've heard, and my general experiences in this game all indicate that the answer to this question would be:

YES

I typically play during the European prime time, rather than my local prime time. During the former, I can go to Deciat or the latest CG in Open and expect to see nobody. During my local prime time, I can do the same and expect to see multiple Commanders, some of them hostile.
 
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