Pay2Win made it to Elite

[MUTILADOR]

And where will it end? Pay to finish missions? Pay to skip travel through galaxy? Pay to see the end credits? Pay to get accepted to a faction?
Pay to have another good player play for you?
Why even play the game? Just pay pay pay... You may not see it, but P2W kills the game and you are just shooting yourself in the foot.
I rather they had a monthly fee to keep seeing this game grow. Like iRacing is doing. They been going strong since 2011 and just keeps growing. A dedicated group of players who love the game and keeps help making it better.

I understand your point. But the idea of subscription is even worse.

More than half of the E.D players have left, being a game without a monthly subscription, what do you want?... for the other half to leave because now they will be charged every month to play?

Subscription should be optional, yes.

Actually what frontier should do is release new ships and skins to sell through arx but in a more massive way. and more accessible so that more people can buy them. Selling high is never a good business in general.

 

[Fizzatron]

I was highlighting the absurdity of it,

In this instance it was an absurdity of itself.

but now that I've thought about it more -- Unfortunately it's a somewhat reasonable assumption for a new player to have because other games do have that sort of micro transactions and progress without paying can be impossible. The steep learning curve and bad messaging around the jumpstart ships can easily lead a novice to these conclusions imo.

If you have to think so hard about someone being so dumb to conjure up a scenario, then maybe it's a sign that the point that emanates from it might not be much smarter.

Elite doesn't exist in a vacuum and has to think about how this looks outwardly too.

But space is a vacuum so that's not quite right, Elite indeed mostly exists in a vacuum. Isn't that how it goes?

 

[Schmack]

But space is a vacuum so that's not quite right, Elite indeed mostly exists in a vacuum. Isn't that how it goes?

That Torr me up.

 

[Disemboweled Ego]

If you have to think so hard about someone being so dumb to conjure up a scenario, then maybe it's a sign that the point that emanates from it might not be much smarter.

It's not about being dumb, it's about being lazy, poorly informed and taking cognitive shortcuts and mis-categorizing things.

"I played Elite for a few hours and got nowhere" is an uncontroversial statement for Elite, especially for someone starting out. "Oh it must be one of those games where you need to pay for premium ships or time-savers to get anywhere" is a reasonable (but ok, wrong) follow-on assumption from that given the state of the games industry at large and Elite has to face those preconceived notions.

If a newcomer would try to be more informed and looked at the recent steam reviews mentioning P2W they could be further driven to believe this.

There isn't a strong enough helpful voice in the community yet saying "Don't buy prebuilt ships, they're a scam, you can get everything for free quick and easy, this is how" because these things take time. Even then that's not a good look and would have the community directly work against what FDev thinks is in their best interest. Those kinds of get-rich-quick guides are also looked down upon by parts of the community right now, I wonder if they'll warm up to them as the least of two evils.

 

[Rat Catcher]

especially for someone starting out. "Oh it must be one of those games where you need to pay for premium ships or time-savers to get anywhere"

Maybe that isn't such an odd comment. It appears that those from the other side are showing some interest in EDO

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWN5LohH9fY


Who knows what might happen?

 

[Brrokk]

Anyway, back to the thread title. Who is this CMDR Pay2Win and which Elite rank has he made it to?

 

[Cmdr. Numa]

Anyway, back to the thread title. Who is this CMDR Pay2Win and which Elite rank has he made it to?

He's Elite VI in everything, as he bought that and never played the game.

 

[Darkfyre99]

So why has the amount of credits that can be earned through every activity increased exponentially since release? Fuel costs and ship prices haven't increased along the same lines, so it's not general inflation.

I’ve always assumed that this was due to… inexperience on the part of FD. Most of the MMOs I’ve played don’t do this: a new player will have the same early game experience that someone who started ten years ago did, and experienced players can go back and experience the same… only from the perspective of a different build.

This credit inflation has been a constant source of frustration and violation of verisimilitude for me. I can’t even use my alt to restore the gameplay I’ve lost thanks to credit inflation. This has let to me playing less, and paying a lot less for cosmetics than I’d originally budgeted.

 

[metatheurgist]

I’ve always assumed that this was due to… inexperience on the part of FD. Most of the MMOs I’ve played don’t do this: a new player will have the same early game experience that someone who started ten years ago did, and experienced players can go back and experience the same… only from the perspective of a different build.

This credit inflation has been a constant source of frustration and violation of verisimilitude for me. I can’t even use my alt to restore the gameplay I’ve lost thanks to credit inflation. This has let to me playing less, and paying a lot less for cosmetics than I’d originally budgeted.

I don't think it's inexperience. I think they made a choice in line with the other choices they've made...Eng V1, CQC, Powerplay, 3 ring plant scanning. And recently they have made a few more choices that I feel the same way as those previous features I listed and I suspect will be as successful.

 

[Darkfyre99]

I don't think it's inexperience. I think they made a choice in line with the other choices they've made...Eng V1, CQC, Powerplay, 3 ring plant scanning. And recently they have made a few more choices that I feel the same way as those previous features I listed and I suspect will be as successful.

That just makes it worse. I've always assumed that the credit inflaction was Frontier not knowing that it's a bad idea to appeas the Veruca Salts of the community, as opposed to taking the time to better balance ship and module prices during the original Alpha, and then assuming that nobody would engage in the new content unless it payed massively more than existing content. A constant cycle of reward inflation until there's no interesting gameplay decisions to be made.

If this constant filling in of the game's depth is deliberate... well, just there's no words.

 

[Ozric]

I’ve always assumed that this was due to… inexperience on the part of FD. Most of the MMOs I’ve played don’t do this: a new player will have the same early game experience that someone who started ten years ago did, and experienced players can go back and experience the same… only from the perspective of a different build.

This credit inflation has been a constant source of frustration and violation of verisimilitude for me. I can’t even use my alt to restore the gameplay I’ve lost thanks to credit inflation. This has let to me playing less, and paying a lot less for cosmetics than I’d originally budgeted.

Well if I use LOTRO again as an example. When that first launched and I made my little Hobbit Burglar, after doing the majority of the quests in the Shire before moving on to Bree you'd be about level 7-9 maybe. They also do the MSQ in Books and Chapters, the end of Book 1 was maybe a level 15 quest and you needed a full group to do it.

Roll forwards 5 years to when Rohan launched, the level cap had been raised from 50 to 85, quest rewards and xp for low level mobs had been increased, and all of the original Volume 1 of the MSQ was made soloable. If you made a new hobbit in the shire and did the majority of the quests you'd be over 15 and massively overlevelled.

They even added an item, that you could only buy from the Store for premium currency I might add, that paused your XP gain so you could experience the journey on level as originally intended... Pesky Turbine...

The difference in Elite is the end game hasn't moved cause there isn't one, unless you could maybe say for those who would want a carrier.

 

[Shadowsnog]

Well if I use LOTRO again as an example. When that first launched and I made my little Hobbit Burglar, after doing the majority of the quests in the Shire before moving on to Bree you'd be about level 7-9 maybe. They also do the MSQ in Books and Chapters, the end of Book 1 was maybe a level 15 quest and you needed a full group to do it.

Roll forwards 5 years to when Rohan launched, the level cap had been raised from 50 to 85, quest rewards and xp for low level mobs had been increased, and all of the original Volume 1 of the MSQ was made soloable. If you made a new hobbit in the shire and did the majority of the quests you'd be over 15 and massively overlevelled.

They even added an item, that you could only buy from the Store for premium currency I might add, that paused your XP gain so you could experience the journey on level as originally intended... Pesky Turbine...

The difference in Elite is the end game hasn't moved cause there isn't one, unless you could maybe say for those who would want a carrier.

i think star wars the old republic is a good example as well. 13 yr old space mmo that i regularly revisit. and as the years passed i witnessed more development aimed at providing a stress free experience and ease of access. in the process many of old mechanisms and principles were adjusted. some elements of the game allowed smoother transition, other things were changed drastically. and its great. now i can step away from the game for years, boot it up whenever and seamlessly continue playing without the need to catch up on events, patches, plots, or to read guides or manuals or whatever (and it wasnt alwas this way).
while im sure that we still can squeeze many years of good gameplay out of elite, it is undeniably aging and was walking on a crutch for some time now. smoothing out the grit a bit, providing some good long term gameplay options and ensuring easy access to the core of the game for both new and returning players will hopefully greatly benefit this amazing game.
what we are witnessing isnt unprecedented, and although the ever present shadow of doom looms, i believe we are moving in a positive direction.

 

[jojon]

Maybe that isn't such an odd comment. It appears that those from the other side are showing some interest in EDO

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWN5LohH9fY


Who knows what might happen?

Seeing the on-foot tutorial/intro again just rekindled my wondering: "where are my authored campaign mission packs?" -- I'd happily pay for those.

 

[alexzk]

i think star wars the old republic is a good example as well. 13 yr old space mmo that i regularly revisit. and as the years passed i witnessed more development aimed at providing a stress free experience and ease of access. in the process many of old mechanisms and principles were adjusted. some elements of the game allowed smoother transition, other things were changed drastically. and its great. now i can step away from the game for years, boot it up whenever and seamlessly continue playing without the need to catch up on events, patches, plots, or to read guides or manuals or whatever (and it wasnt alwas this way).
while im sure that we still can squeeze many years of good gameplay out of elite, it is undeniably aging and was walking on a crutch for some time now. smoothing out the grit a bit, providing some good long term gameplay options and ensuring easy access to the core of the game for both new and returning players will hopefully greatly benefit this amazing game.
what we are witnessing isnt unprecedented, and although the ever present shadow of doom looms, i believe we are moving in a positive direction.

It was released in winter, I bought it on April.
Last I saw version 7.x. It becomes less challenging and boring when years pass. They removed / changed everything I liked it for.
So no, that is bad example. Now it attracts "lazy players" who don't want to think more than 30s. It is too much simplified.

 

[Darkfyre99]

Well if I use LOTRO again as an example. When that first launched and I made my little Hobbit Burglar, after doing the majority of the quests in the Shire before moving on to Bree you'd be about level 7-9 maybe. They also do the MSQ in Books and Chapters, the end of Book 1 was maybe a level 15 quest and you needed a full group to do it.

Roll forwards 5 years to when Rohan launched, the level cap had been raised from 50 to 85, quest rewards and xp for low level mobs had been increased, and all of the original Volume 1 of the MSQ was made soloable. If you made a new hobbit in the shire and did the majority of the quests you'd be over 15 and massively overlevelled.

They even added an item, that you could only buy from the Store for premium currency I might add, that paused your XP gain so you could experience the journey on level as originally intended... Pesky Turbine...

The difference in Elite is the end game hasn't moved cause there isn't one, unless you could maybe say for those who would want a carrier.

Ah, so it is... inexperience after all. They're applying level-based MMO logic to what is a non-level-based one.

 

[Shadowsnog]

It was released in winter, I bought it on April.
Last I saw version 7.x. It becomes less challenging and boring when years pass. They removed / changed everything I liked it for.
So no, that is bad example. Now it attracts "lazy players" who don't want to think more than 30s. It is too much simplified.

yes, 13 yr old game that still attracts players. yes, when that time of year comes i want to play, not think. im sorry you dont like it now, but it sounds like you had a good time for a while with it(?).
if you would prefer noone played it to appease your need for challenge from a 13 yr old game then thats a perfectly valid preference. but im glad that i can enjoy a game anytime without sweating and metacrafting and what have you...

 

[Kaocraft]

I understand your point. But the idea of subscription is even worse.

More than half of the E.D players have left, being a game without a monthly subscription, what do you want?... for the other half to leave because now they will be charged every month to play?

Subscription should be optional, yes.

Actually what frontier should do is release new ships and skins to sell through arx but in a more massive way. and more accessible so that more people can buy them. Selling high is never a good business in general.

They could have an optional monthly subscription option which gives free access to everything in the ARX store while the subscription is active, but removes it if the subscription expires. And they would still keep the Arx store as-is for people who want to purchase ala carte or “own” something “permanently”. Maybe also offer a discount on purchases for active subscribers also. This is a pretty common subscription model I’ve seen for a lot of streaming media and game store type services.

 

[Disemboweled Ego]

The difference in Elite is the end game hasn't moved cause there isn't one, unless you could maybe say for those who would want a carrier.

While the MMO examples people are giving are dependant on RPG Character levels and player power creep - there is a version of that for Elite too, even if you leave out the ship/gear progression -- players are plain better now after many years and thousands of hours of experience. Nothing in the game is a match for them and FDev hasn't even really tried upping the difficulty in ways that requires better flying instead of a more focused ship design.

 

[Ozric]

Ah, so it is... inexperience after all. They're applying level-based MMO logic to what is a non-level-based one.

In the same way they tried applying guild mechanics to a game that wasn't designed to have them

While the MMO examples people are giving are dependant on RPG Character levels and player power creep - there is a version of that for Elite too, even if you leave out the ship/gear progression -- players are plain better now after many years and thousands of hours of experience. Nothing in the game is a match for them and FDev hasn't even really tried upping the difficulty in ways that requires better flying instead of a more focused ship design.

Well they have increased the difficulty of high level NPCs a few times, and it's normally met with an outcry. I would also say that the example I gave I don't think is dependant on RPG character levels. It's about game progression.
As every MMO of any kind gets older, progression gets quicker and easier.

 

[Greasetrap42]

The entire Thargoid War could have been a DLC. It could have been called Thargoid Expansion Pack. Access to the rescue ships, missions, and new AX modules provided through the DLC. Thargoid updates released in the same kinda schedule to those that purchase the Thargoid DLC. Players without the DLC can enter systems and get shot-up, but that's about it.

This would have been Pay-To-Play. And I would have been happy to pay $30 for this.

Possibly this idea never saw light because FDev wanted something... anything... to release after the Odyssey launch disaster. Trying to release another DLC right after might not have been received well.

Edit:
I have seen other similar suggestions to this. DLC expansion packs for self-contained adventure activities within the ED Galaxy. They fit in the galaxy, but only those that pay for the DLC gain access to the activity. Similar to other games where a DLC might unlock a new gameplay region... but all the old regions still exist for all the other players. Pay-to Play.