Could griefers be turned into a feature?

[Jack Winter]

No problem about the salt, I wouldn't have posted if I minded...

Since I've spent some time thinking about the ganking problem, I might come across as supportive of them (which really isn't the case, at least as far as seal clubbers and other griefers are concerned)..

But in the end a player is allowed to shoot other players in open mode so I can't really fault them for it, and honestly in what mode should they play if not in open. IMO it's a crappy thing to do to kill another player for lols, but if it's allowed by the rules of the game, then... I realize that this is probably not a popular position but it's the conclusion I've come to. IMO, it was naive by Frontier to design it like this, and the crime and punishment changes did nothing to improve it, IMO it just made some aspects of the game more annoying for the players. For instance comments like I went to Arai's Mine to assault the settlement and now I have notoriety and can't pay off my bounties.

Personally I think the best anyone can do if annoyed about this aspect of the game is to play solo, or find a player group to play in PG with.

I guess the fact that ganking can lead some people so far down the rabbit hole that they commit crimes in real life (doxing, real life threats, etc) shows that for some it's an intensely emotional issue.

Edit: fixed spelling

 

[Releaux]

No problem about the salt, I wouldn't have posted if I minded...

Since I've spent some time thinking about the ganking problem, I might come across as supportive of them (which really isn't the case, at least as far as seal clubbers and other griefers are concerned)..

But in the end a player is allowed to shoot other players in open mode so I can't really fault them for it, and honestly in what mode should they play if not in open. IMO it's a crappy thing to do to kill another player for lols, but if it's allowed by the rules of the game, then... I realize that this is probably not a popular position but it's the conclusion I've come to. IMO, it was naive by Frontier to design it like this, and the crime and punishment changes did nothing to improve it, IMO it just made some aspects of the game more annoying for the players. For instance comments like I went to Arai's Mine to assault the settlement and now I have notoriety and can't pay off my bounties.

Personally I think the best anyone can do if annoyed about this aspect of the game is to play solo, or find a player group to play in PG with.

I guess the fact that ganking can lead some people so far down the rabbit hole that they commit crimes in real life (doxing, real life threats, etc) shows that for some it's an intensely emotional issue.

Edit: fixed spelling

+100. In my first post in this thread (I think), part of what I was saying is that while I don’t like the griefing behavior, I do get that these people are playing by the actual rules of the server. They aren’t doing anything wrong by the rules of the game, and FDev hasn’t done anything to change that in ten years. It’s pretty safe to assume that they never will.

That’s why my advice when people bring up the topic is the same as yours. Accept that this won’t change no matter how many good ideas are floated, and play in a PG or solo. It’s telling that Mobius hit the population cap for a PG and had to create multiple regional groups. I suspect that if you needed a PG to engage in griefing behavior, it wouldn’t ever reach 20k people who wanted to be subject to having that inflicted on them. (I’m not talking about pvp or roleplay here, just the seal clubbers and their ilk).

 

[Rakk Jackham]

The play area is too big and the population of gamers on Earth too small to give you the encounters you are looking for. Not to mention that once you get to a certain number of commanders in one instance the game can suffer from all sorts of issues.

Also not everyone wants to play in multiplayer.

Players aren’t evenly distributed across the galaxy and you could give them hubs / content to cause them to congregate. Like, idk places they can ask each other for help or pay one another or trade stuff. Crazy ideas I know. Game design. Probably couldn’t give gankers free rein to wholesale slaughter people or justify the horrible HazRez system which is a … bowling alley for ships and murder?

 

[aRJay]

Players aren’t evenly distributed across the galaxy and you could give them hubs / content to cause them to congregate. Like, idk places they can ask each other for help or pay one another or trade stuff. Crazy ideas I know. Game design. Probably couldn’t give gankers free rein to wholesale slaughter people or justify the horrible HazRez system which is a … bowling alley for ships and murder?

True but as @Ian Doncaster said even if you just restrict it to the bubble the numbers won’t do what you want and if they did or your hubs were present more than 20 players in an instance will start all kinds of connection related issues and rubberbanding and all the rest.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I guess the fact that ganking can lead some people so far down the rabbit hole that they commit crimes in real life

Well I have gotten very good at making burgers

 

[ethelred]

Some of us have been banging on about this for years.

To be a psycho killer in game is a valid career path and ideally would give access to ganker specific modules and so on as long as there is also complimentary gameplay associated with the hunting of them. This would be a positive game loop.

However, the Deciat Problem has existed almost as long as engineers have, and as FDEV have done nothing about it - most annoyingly the long range rails issue meaning they can get kills out of the exclusion zone - it probably means they aren’t able to, at the very least have no will to address this issue.

So, as other have said we’re stuck with what we have, so the advice is choose your mode or equip for bear should you want to fly in Open.

Regarding Deciat, the closest I have come is dropping out around 10km, then stealthing through the canyons in a DBX - but i was spotted and killed. I do reckon it’s possible though.

 

[jackwall]

I've given this topic a little thought also ... hard to avoid doing so as it so evergreen LOL.

OP, of course it's not lost on you that it is already a feature in Open.

Elite Dangerous - Open - a free for all for the playing community to be all they wish to be ..... FDEV I am sure knowingly designed Open to be whatever it would become.
That means all the spectrum can be represented, even the unpopular and frustrating parts.

Built a tank, form a Wing to go up against them and they'll probably 'run away' and deny you the glory of your victory ....LOL.
You get a story to share but little else. Or your get you backside handed to you enough that you decide to make a change.

After I had enough, I went to Solo.
If that mode didn't exist, I might (maybe) be spending longer out in the void in Open ... or perhaps more likely, no longer be playing ED-O.

There is some merit in the COOP Mode idea. It's a nice discussion topic with tempered expectations of course.
This thread has been good.

Gankers trigger an emotional response in me which soaks up most of the oxygen.
Perspective is important and I genuinely believe, there are bigger and more important items than addressing gankers in ED-O (which does not include ship interiors LOL)

S!

 

[Screemonster]

So, as other have said we’re stuck with what we have, so the advice is choose your mode or equip for bear should you want to fly in Open.

A fairly common thing I do as part of the joke pirate routine, assuming the other player sticks around, is tell the player how to get away from me next time. At the very least I'll tell them how reboot/repair works if I ended up shooting their drives out.

One time I interdicted someone three times in a row and on the third time, when they actually stopped and gave up, I told them about high-waking and submitting.

If it wasn't for the fact that I try not to pull people who've previously actually talked to me (though my memory can be a bit of a sieve) I'd love to see someone get away from me after one of those tutorials.

 

[ethelred]

Totally with you @Screemonster

Tbh there's a real lack in training for (asymmetric ) PvP, how to evade and so on. Escaping NPCs doesn't prepare you at all.

I've seen so many CMDRs flight in straight lines to be interdicted easily, and that's even before we would consider their ship builds, so here we are having the same conversations nearly 11 years later.

 

[Screemonster]

Totally with you @Screemonster

Tbh there's a real lack in training for (asymmetric ) PvP, how to evade and so on. Escaping NPCs doesn't prepare you at all.

I've seen so many CMDRs flight in straight lines to be interdicted easily, and that's even before we would consider their ship builds, so here we are having the same conversations nearly 11 years later.

Hell, even a combat tutorial with just "objective: survive" where they tell you to put pips into systems and engines and have comments like "they're faster than you, if you just try to run away they'll catch you - boost towards them to force them to turn around" and the like.

Hell, even have one where a basilisk hyperdicts you in a tanky, but non-AX ship and have the tutor explain what inhibitive mass is and how you can high-wake to avoid it.

 

[EdzUp]

They should make the security response equal or greater than the attackers ship so it's not only a challenge but will force them out of the system.

Also I would also fix the piracy mechanics to make it so the language barrier is removed for example maybe a wheel of common phrases etc that's translated to the users language their end when receiving it. This would then facilitate piracy as it was ask for when The Code were around back in the day.

All the players with high bounties > 1 million credits should be highlighted on the galaxy map so hunters can go get them this would get the PvP ships going.

Ganking is either done because someone is inadequate in some way or out of boredom with the game so they turn to killing everything in sight. Let's make the game interesting again for everyone

 

[Wily Rites]

1) Tied to C&P on the PvE side (so, e.g., blowing someone up for giggles in an uninhabited system is absolutely fine, but self-defence if some player attacks you over your 300cr trespass bounty - or even over more significant PvE crimes - is strictly forbidden)

2) Don't account for ramming-based deaths (it's very easy to kill a weak ship with a high speed ram, but that doesn't mean the innocent party was the one flying the weak ship) or similar tricks to switch "responsibility"

3) Assume that all PvP deaths other than pre-arranged duels are illegitimate, therefore barring group-vs-group warfare (which may or may not be related to a PvE objective), hunting down player-killers, getting revenge a few days later on the person who blew you up, friendly fire in a crowded AX CZ or other high-intensity PvE environment, etc.

4) Requires manual moderation and assessment for each kills (or even some kills), which no-one has time for; it needs to be something the game can implement and enforce automatically with at most only ultra-rare cases needing to go to Frontier Support to fix.

I was re-reading your post, I'm a bit of a slow digest, but got to the essence of it eventually. I am working on, or rather interested by, generalised protocols that work within the actor model; I just realised that this scenario is actually a perfect situation to try to implement something for, not the full actor model, it is kind of similar with such a broad environment; It will certainly be later rather than sooner, but I will get in touch if it does make sense. A measure of space madness need not be visible on the ship, but could accumulate within, rather than driving visible environment changes, it could be used to change the way that the environment reacts to acts.

 

[Wily Rites]

Some of us have been banging on about this for years.

To be a psycho killer in game is a valid career path and ideally would give access to ganker specific modules and so on as long as there is also complimentary gameplay associated with the hunting of them. This would be a positive game loop.

However, the Deciat Problem has existed almost as long as engineers have, and as FDEV have done nothing about it - most annoyingly the long range rails issue meaning they can get kills out of the exclusion zone - it probably means they aren’t able to, at the very least have no will to address this issue.

So, as other have said we’re stuck with what we have, so the advice is choose your mode or equip for bear should you want to fly in Open.

Regarding Deciat, the closest I have come is dropping out around 10km, then stealthing through the canyons in a DBX - but i was spotted and killed. I do reckon it’s possible though.

I'm now imagining the board of directors of Fdev as the main crew of gankers, whipping their coders into line to bring in the lambs for the slaughter! (tongue in cheek of course).
Love the tails of intrepid attempts at avoiding them, but in a stock sidewinder or an eagle, oh man, you have to have decided to bin you current persona and start again from scratch for that to be a viable scenario, that matches the 'loosing ones elite virginity' case.

Elite Dangerous - Open - a free for all for the playing community to be all they wish to be ..... FDEV I am sure knowingly designed Open to be whatever it would become.
That means all the spectrum can be represented, even the unpopular and frustrating parts.

You may well be right here, and I think it is still an open playing ground to be developed into something utterly amazing, all about the natural balance. Particularly, about achieving that with the game'd model.

They should make the security response equal or greater than the attackers ship so it's not only a challenge but will force them out of the system.

Also I would also fix the piracy mechanics to make it so the language barrier is removed for example maybe a wheel of common phrases etc that's translated to the users language their end when receiving it. This would then facilitate piracy as it was ask for when The Code were around back in the day.

All the players with high bounties > 1 million credits should be highlighted on the galaxy map so hunters can go get them this would get the PvP ships going.

Ganking is either done because someone is inadequate in some way or out of boredom with the game so they turn to killing everything in sight. Let's make the game interesting again for everyone

Nice ideas here, particularly the language wheel, I'm thinking that this would give a very natural segway into an easily log-able protocol that could help a more hidden game metric that discerns intent. Pip management for the mind if you will, mood - fighting, trading, I've been reduced to a life of crime, utterly childish psychopath who does not know how to play well with others.

 

[Wily Rites]

I had a jaunt in open mode the other day, for the first time in an age, in Shinrarta, no interdictions and I was in my combat build. I was a little disappointed to be honest, perhaps the wrong time of day.

Man I see that there are issues when many players are in one system though; I'd not realised that this was such a thing before this thread.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Also I would also fix the piracy mechanics to make it so the language barrier is removed for example maybe a wheel of common phrases etc that's translated to the users language their end when receiving it. This would then facilitate piracy as it was ask for when The Code were around back in the day.

All the players with high bounties > 1 million credits should be highlighted on the galaxy map so hunters can go get them this would get the PvP ships going.

Ganking is either done because someone is inadequate in some way or out of boredom with the game so they turn to killing everything in sight. Let's make the game interesting again for everyone

They should make the security response equal or greater than the attackers ship so it's not only a challenge but will force them out of the system.

That alone won't work, given how rigid sec response is.

high bounties > 1 million credits

thats...not high. After a week of BGS murder I was on 3 billion per ship I was using. From memory 1 million per ship is about not.5. At not.10 each kill is about 2 million.

Also (admittedly not known re V2) bounty is zeroed in Delaine space- so if you LW or HW out the crime is 'forgiven'. How does that figure in things? Should those not seeking conflict avoid Delaine space- if so, why can't they do it elsewhere?

 

[EdzUp]

That alone won't work, given how rigid sec response is.

thats...not high. After a week of BGS murder I was on 3 billion per ship I was using. From memory 1 million per ship is about not.5. At not.10 each kill is about 2 million.

Also (admittedly not known re V2) bounty is zeroed in Delaine space- so if you LW or HW out the crime is 'forgiven'. How does that figure in things? Should those not seeking conflict avoid Delaine space- if so, why can't they do it elsewhere?

Yeah the figures are open to adjustment but as a idea when players hit a suitable level the PF should flag them so bounty hunters can sort it out.

I think the Sec response needs to be adjusted to make it more fluid not just they turn up after X seconds they turn omuo at random depending on how many are in the area and the size is dependent on the attacker

 

[Rubbernuke]

Yeah the figures are open to adjustment but as a idea when players hit a suitable level the PF should flag them so bounty hunters can sort it out.

I think the Sec response needs to be adjusted to make it more fluid not just they turn up after X seconds they turn omuo at random depending on how many are in the area and the size is dependent on the attacker

Its why I suggested much earlier in the thread basing ATR response on scans, and that visibility of attackers is based on scans too- gameplay based solution that adds skill.

The issue is that unless you can survive about 60 seconds (or long enough to HW) no security can save you currently. The fastest response is ATR who drop instantly (as in, you kill x amount of ships > ATR warning > your next shot on an innocent ship they drop) but even then paper ships will die.

 

[Wily Rites]

Its why I suggested much earlier in the thread basing ATR response on scans, and that visibility of attackers is based on scans too- gameplay based solution that adds skill.

The issue is that unless you can survive about 60 seconds (or long enough to HW) no security can save you currently. The fastest response is ATR who drop instantly (as in, you kill x amount of ships > ATR warning > your next shot on an innocent ship they drop) but even then paper ships will die.

I'm only now beginning to grok the paper ships issue, it is true that some kind of instruction on this, if there is no other solution, could help. I can see it being fun developing or engineering a ship with a long jump range, that is also capable of carrying cargo and defending itself. My mindset so far has only been upon engineering a combat ship that is adept enough for getting a decent amount of G5 materials from combat missions; Using a paper ship with a long jump range to carry parts and blueprints.

That said, my first experience of [insert appropriate abuse here], by a blood lusting reaver was in Deciat when the paper nature of my ship was not a choice.

What happened to Miranda's r̶i̶t̶e̶s̶ ̶w̶r̶i̶t̶e̶s̶ rights? No ... wait ... what is happening to me, did someone just say ....

 

[Rubbernuke]

Deciat when the paper nature of my ship was not a choice.

Your ship build is always a choice. I admit Farseer is an early bottleneck but at the same time you don't have to rush to her straight away- you have tech broker modules and other engineers to give you a leg up too.

 

[Wily Rites]

Your ship build is always a choice. I admit Farseer is an early bottleneck but at the same time you don't have to rush to her straight away- you have tech broker modules and other engineers to give you a leg up too.

I wasn't looking to get ahead nor for a leg up, for me it is not all about competing.
I was just starting to venture out into the galaxy exploring, in awe of it all, when I got a radio message from the venerable Felicity Farseer.
I'm not the competitive type, unless I hear the word ...

Not at all dissimilar to the venerable krait herself, I am by nature very placid and not interested by competition.