I'm sorry, I didn't quite follow you.
You mean the special names of planets and systems? (like the Sun)
Or the fact that if you zoom out on the galaxy map, you can see other galaxies?
FE2 didn't have any story line or scripted missions. There were lots of ships, a sett of different missions and a nice galaxy. Nothing more.
It' was a nice game, but it felt empty quite quickly. Nothing ever changed, except your rank and bank account.

FE2 is probably one of the technically most impressive games ever made. DB wrote the original Amiga version entirely in assembly code. The game fit on a single floppy disk.
 
FE2 didn't have any story line or scripted missions. There were lots of ships, a sett of different missions and a nice galaxy. Nothing more.
It' was a nice game, but it felt empty quite quickly. Nothing ever changed, except your rank and bank account.

FE2 is probably one of the technically most impressive games ever made. DB wrote the original Amiga version entirely in assembly code. The game fit on a single floppy disk.
I played Frontier specifically on an Amiga 1200 in the 199x. And just from a floppy disk.
Yes there were no Thargoids there, but that doesn't prove there couldn't be Raxxla. Or is showing other galaxies just a code error?
 
I played Frontier specifically on an Amiga 1200 in the 199x. And just from a floppy disk.
Yes there were no Thargoids there, but that doesn't prove there couldn't be Raxxla. Or is showing other galaxies just a code error?
The other galaxies are the same galaxy. It's just overflow in the code. Same as the worm-hole bug.
 
I played Frontier specifically on an Amiga 1200 in the 199x. And just from a floppy disk.
Yes there were no Thargoids there, but that doesn't prove there couldn't be Raxxla. Or is showing other galaxies just a code error?
As already stated (many, many times now), that game has been entirely taken apart and Raxxla does not exist in any prior game. Full stop.

It's worth remembering that Raxxla wasn't really ever a Braben thing. It's probably only in Elite Dangerous because of a bunch of fans of the lore working on the game.
 
I played Frontier specifically on an Amiga 1200 in the 199x. And just from a floppy disk.
Yes there were no Thargoids there, but that doesn't prove there couldn't be Raxxla. Or is showing other galaxies just a code error?
I urge you to watch Drew's Lore tour 7
He knows a great deal about Elite and what went on back at the beginning and explains why Raxxla was pretty much not in the first games.


O7
 
Has anyone attempted to utilize "CHAT GPT"? It's reported that it has the answer's to just about everything. And even agrees that the secret to life is 42! Which I've never ever seen utilized in any of the equation's involving where is Raxxla.
 
As already stated (many, many times now), that game has been entirely taken apart and Raxxla does not exist in any prior game. Full stop.

It's worth remembering that Raxxla wasn't really ever a Braben thing. It's probably only in Elite Dangerous because of a bunch of fans of the lore working on the game.

I don't doubt that the game was taken apart many times. But after reading the Stories of Life on the Frontier and the Journals from FFE looking at the structure and the types of characters used - I am certain that the idea was kept alive in the lore atleast if not the game (but ya i still suspect that something like the langford basalisk might have slipped through). I remember people telling me there was nothing about raxxla or the dark wheel in the FEII or FFE stories... And I accepted it untill i started going through Holdstocks books and looking at themes and characters. They were Wrong - There are real tie ins to Holdstocks idea of what Raxxla is in there. The problem is people are coming with preconcieved ideas of what Raxxla is. And just because it doesnt say "The Dark Wheel" or "Raxxla" in the text .... doesnt mean that it isnt being talked about.

An obvious bit is Lady Kahina...Rebecca... Alista Marlbron.... Elyssia Fields.... They are pointing to the fact that there are Characters that Repeat throughout the story.... Mythagos... or as they are explained in Elite as Clones.... These same characters are repeated throughout Elite and other non-elite books by Holdstock. I suspect Holdstock was basing things off of Welsh Myth (among others) but also a play on the Red Book of Hergest ... with the Red book of Jung.... The Couple that Holdstock carries through theses stories is in atleast part related to Jungs' Philemon and Salome.... yup interesting that Drew chose the name Salome.... Of course Holdstock puts his own spin and there are layers and layers of alluions to similar mythical quests/journeys... I finally got around to reading Merlins Wood (Merlin and Vivien). Was Good.
 
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I don't doubt that the game was taken apart many times. But after reading the Stories of Life on the Frontier and the Journals from FFE looking at the structure and the types of characters used - I am certain that the idea was kept alive in the lore atleast if not the game (but ya i still suspect that something like the langford basalisk might have slipped through). I remember people telling me there was nothing about raxxla or the dark wheel in the FEII or FFE stories... And I accepted it untill i started going through Holdstocks books and looking at themes and characters. They were Wrong - There are real tie ins to Holdstocks idea of what Raxxla is in there. The problem is people are coming with preconcieved ideas of what Raxxla is. And just because it doesnt say "The Dark Wheel" or "Raxxla" in the text .... doesnt mean that it isnt being talked about.

An obvious bit is Lady Kahina...Rebecca... Alista Marlbron.... Elyssia Fields.... They are pointing to the fact that there are Characters that Repeat throughout the story.... Mythagos... or as they are explained in Elite as Clones.... These same characters are repeated throughout Elite and other non-elite books by Holdstock. I suspect Holdstock was basing things off of Welsh Myth (among others) but also a play on the Red Book of Herges ... with the Red book of Jung.... The Couple that Holdstock carries through theses stories is in atleast part related to Jungs' Philemon and Salome.... yup interesting that Drew chose the name Salome.... Of course Holdstock puts his own spin and there are layers and layers of alluions to similar mythical quests/journeys... I finally got around to reading Merlins Wood (Merlin and Vivien). Was Good.
I disagree strongly with almost anything that talks about Holdstock's non-Elite work.

Most of the things you mention (as you know) are from authors that wrote tie-in material.

Drew Wagar is a massive fan of Elite 1984 almost exclusively, and TDW novella, and is also a fan of mythology and mystery as well as being an author with all the influences that brings. Almost everything he created for Elite or helped with is rich in allusions to The Dark Wheel Novella and mythology.

However, as Drew has repeatedly stated probably hundreds of times by now, he (and from what he says none of the official authors) have any info on Raxxla other than "it exists". So using Drew's stuff to support any Raxxla theory is already starting on extremely shaky ground.

All this isn't new info, but worth repeating.
 
I disagree strongly with almost anything that talks about Holdstock's non-Elite work.

Ok thats fine - but i would argue that you are missing out an a big part. I get you are focused on the nifty hidden-image at the centerish of the Galaxy. But Id say there is a reason it is there and it has to do with the path... and the Path is Lore... And lore (well the story i guess actually - Awen) especially in this case is made of allusions and references to things that arent always right in front of us. The reason I keep mentioning the Langford Basalisk from the FFE Journals is i believe the thing in the Center you are interested in - is a new Elite version of it.

A bit about the storyline in elite ive noticed:
A while back we had Marlinists who were fighting the empire.... Theta group folks... they were called The Nine Martyrs - ive linked to a site about the actual Nine Martyrs of Orthodox Christianity - look at the last name on the list. The Nine has another meaning - Ennead the name of a system and one of the Marlinist Ships... There is also the Nine Maidens who stoked the fire below the Cauldron... I believe we are on the path to Annwn one way or another.


Drew Wagar is a massive fan of Elite 1984 almost exclusively, and TDW novella, and is also a fan of mythology and mystery as well as being an author with all the influences that brings. Almost everything he created for Elite or helped with is rich in allusions to The Dark Wheel Novella and mythology.

Regarding Drew.... Im not trying to speak for him but id say- yes he is a big fan and a writer - im sure he understands the allusions he is using and he has been looking for raxxla longer than most of us- he is also under NDA. As to the comparison of Characters its pointless if you arent interested in looking at Holdstocks work.
 
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Ok thats fine - but i would argue that you are missing out an a big part. I get you are focused on the nifty hidden-image at the centerish of the Galaxy. But Id say there is a reason it is there and it has to do with the path... and the Path is Lore... And lore (well the story i guess actually - Awen) especially in this case is made of allusions and references to things that arent always right in front of us. The reason I keep mentioning the Langford Basalisk from the FFE Journals is i believe the thing in the Center you are interested in - is a new Elite version of it.

A bit about the storyline in elite ive noticed:
A while back we had Marlinists who were fighting the empire.... Theta group folks... they were called The Nine Martyrs - ive linked to a site about the actual Nine Martyrs of Orthodox Christianity - look at the last name on the list. The Nine has another meaning - Ennead the name of a system and one of the Marlinist Ships... There is also the Nine Maidens who stoked the fire below the Cauldron... I believe we are on the path to Annwn one way or another.




Regarding Drew.... Im not trying to speak for him but id say- yes he is a big fan and a writer - im sure he understands the allusions he is using and he has been looking for raxxla longer than most of us- he is also under NDA. As to the comparison of Characters its pointless if you arent interested in looking at Holdstocks work.
I don't think I am missing anything, I actually think I've deeply considered all the options and dismissed 'Holdstock Expanded Universe' theory as a dead end.

It is worth remembering that Allen Stroud (official Elite author, Holdstock expert, and one of the primary contributors to Elite Dangerous' general background lore) told us on this very thread quite a lot that directly relates to this.

Everyone should read this quote (and check out the original postings Allen made, they're lengthy and detailed). We're very fortunate that Allen took the time to answer some questions and straighten out a few things for us all a while back, it's a shame so much is buried deep in the bowels of this thread!


"We all expected Elite: Legacy to be a direct sequel, which was why most of the other writers steered clear in their central plots and then tried to hint at things that could relate to Raxxla, the Dark Wheel, etc. These areas were pretty much off limits for a direct narrative at the time. However, replication of Holdstock's mythmaking is something many of the writers attempted. There are connections between the books, the game, the rest. It is worth looking at T James' book Out of the Darkness (which I edited) to get a snapshot of how close many of us were allowed to 'the crown jewels' ;) The mythos around Thargoids was very closely guarded. T. James worked up the Thargoid booklet draft. I had a bit of time to look at it and we had one or two discussions (T James, David Braben, Michael Brookes and I), where we considered the origin of Thargoids and how that related to other elements of the mythology. I was very much the fourth person in that discussion, whereas I was more involved in the other areas.

Michael made several announcements whilst project lead during that period. He was incredibly overworked trying to fulfill the commitments placed on him by the Kickstarter and Frontier. He was lovely to work with. I'd say he was more Lovecraft influenced than Holdstock influenced, but there's a similarity. I would say his intention was always to include Raxxla, The Dark Wheel, and references that would provide a narrative continuance. I worked with that in mind, preserving and developing the hints given in the background from Frontier: Elite 2 and Frontier First Encounters. I don't know how far they got on game implementation of that narrative but he would always reply confidently that it was in the game."

- Allen Stroud, 2021, this thread.



Specifically, burn this into your brains:

"He [Brookes] was incredibly overworked trying to fulfill the commitments placed on him by the Kickstarter and Frontier ... I'd say he was more Lovecraft influenced than Holdstock influenced ... intention was always to include [in the game] Raxxla, The Dark Wheel, and references that would provide a narrative continuance."

Allen is just one person, but what he's saying here is very, very consistent with what Drew Wagar says in his many livestreams, and it's fully consistent with an analysis of the Raxxla myth as it exists in game, and with Brookes' own work, and his personal website - so I find no reason to think Allen is unreliable.

My solution to the Raxxla mystery (since you mention it) is deeply wrapped into the game lore and narrative, very simple to implement, actually exists entirely within the game, requiring people to use in-game exploration skills and techniques consistent with other puzzles that have been in the game. There may well be more to it as a next step, but we'll never know if everyone continues to ignore what's in-game.
 
Has anyone attempted to utilize "CHAT GPT"? It's reported that it has the answer's to just about everything. And even agrees that the secret to life is 42! Which I've never ever seen utilized in any of the equation's involving where is Raxxla.

These tools are just echo chambers, put rubbish in - get rubbish out, put actual information in - get spurious tripe and polarised misinformation out.
 
I don't doubt that the game was taken apart many times. But after reading the Stories of Life on the Frontier and the Journals from FFE looking at the structure and the types of characters used - I am certain that the idea was kept alive in the lore atleast if not the game (but ya i still suspect that something like the langford basalisk might have slipped through). I remember people telling me there was nothing about raxxla or the dark wheel in the FEII or FFE stories... And I accepted it untill i started going through Holdstocks books and looking at themes and characters. They were Wrong - There are real tie ins to Holdstocks idea of what Raxxla is in there. The problem is people are coming with preconcieved ideas of what Raxxla is. And just because it doesnt say "The Dark Wheel" or "Raxxla" in the text .... doesnt mean that it isnt being talked about.

An obvious bit is Lady Kahina...Rebecca... Alista Marlbron.... Elyssia Fields.... They are pointing to the fact that there are Characters that Repeat throughout the story.... Mythagos... or as they are explained in Elite as Clones.... These same characters are repeated throughout Elite and other non-elite books by Holdstock. I suspect Holdstock was basing things off of Welsh Myth (among others) but also a play on the Red Book of Hergest ... with the Red book of Jung.... The Couple that Holdstock carries through theses stories is in atleast part related to Jungs' Philemon and Salome.... yup interesting that Drew chose the name Salome.... Of course Holdstock puts his own spin and there are layers and layers of alluions to similar mythical quests/journeys... I finally got around to reading Merlins Wood (Merlin and Vivien). Was Good.

Raxxla is a Holdstock invention, he developed the concepts for the Dark Wheel novella not DB nor IB, they of course gave him contexts for the game mechanics but it was Holdstock who developed the Raxxla myth.

Raxxla is therefore a Holdstock mythology, it is as you describe developed out of Celtic concepts of an Otherworldl.
 
The obvious problem with allusions is that there's more than one reason to use them. So while there probably are allusion clues around, that doesn't necessarily mean that every allusion is part of a single puzzle pointing to Raxxla. Sure, the Titans have been named after storm gods, and that might be a clue that Raxxla is in the Gurney Slade system [1]. Or they might just be named that way because it's an obvious way - that the SC Taranis also used decades previously - to indicate something as big and scary while also providing a thematic naming scheme.

The less obvious but I think more severe problem - after all, one could come up with a more focused answer that ignores the accidental red herrings - is
- because almost all the things with actual names are in or very near to the bubble, an allusion theory is almost always also going to place Raxxla in or near the bubble [2]
- those systems have all been thoroughly explored by conventional means over the last decade
- so if Raxxla is in one, it must be extremely well hidden, to the point where even Frontier coming out and saying "Raxxla is in this system" still might not allow anyone to find it

...and none of the looking at allusions seems to be producing anything on how it might be hidden within a system or what the key to finding it within that system would be.


[1] A gurney carries those who need medical care (like the Titan rescuees), while Slade sang "Slam the Hammer Down" (Thor's hammer, in this case).

[2] I have a vague theory that the six descriptions of the DW Toast might refer to six things (nebulae, systems, planets, etc.) which together form a (possibly irregular) hexagon with Raxxla at its centre. Enough candidates are outside the bubble that this could move Raxxla a few thousand LY from Sol at least, where the concealment could merely be "enough to stop a passing visitor" ... but what I can't find is enough clear candidates for some of the descriptions at all to make that work.
 
Whilst we have Drew in mind ive been thinking lately about his comments on Jasmina Halsey, who i still see more linked to Raxxla than the Guardians, he said there is more to that story but an NDA forbids any further talk of it.
Its on my list to go back over it again.

O7
 
Then there is the Christian Palimpsest - Revelations (very similar imagery to the Spoils of Annwn)

A Shiny man (paraphrasing) appears surrounded by seven golden lampstands in his hand he held seven stars
I am the first and the last, and the living one. I was dead and see i am alive for ever and i have the keys of Death and of Hades.
The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches and the lampstands are the churches.

Seven stars - Pleaides

Let anyone who has an ear listen to what the Spirit is saying to the Churches. (sound familiar?) To everyone who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and i will give a white stone , and on the white stone is written a new name that no one knows except the one who receives it.
- hidden manna of course meta alloys... the white stone and name intrigues me.

To the one who conquers I will also give the morning star. Let anyone who has an ear listen to what the Spirit is saying to the churches.
Listening being repeated many times.... Have you been Listening?
- This is of course the UAs and the communications The morning star makes me think Sirius is involved- but arent they always.

After this i looked and there in heaven a door stood open! There in heaven stood a throne ... and the one seated there looks like jasper and carnelian, and around the throne is a rainbow that looks like an emerald. In front of the throne burn seven torches which are the seven spirits of god and in front of the throne there is something like a sea of glass, like crystal (nebula?). Description of the Seraphim....
-There is a connection between Cemiess and Pleiades Both are partially answering descriptions here. There was a recent community goal in Utopia land .... updating their Research Archive... but also working on something called the Acheron Interface. Acheron is the mouth of the river. Cemiess is the stone over the pool.

The one on the throne holds a scroll in his right hand sealed with seven seals. Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?
- The Lamb takes the scroll... Lamb a symbol for Salvation... Opening of the Seals takes place one by one.....

i suspect we are at the fourth seal... Death and hades given authority over a fourth of the earth... Well It might have been about a quarter of the bubble (for a little while atleast)?

The fifth seal is about divine justice for the Martyrs... maybe with the new Powerplay the Marlinists will get some reward?
 
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I don't doubt that the game was taken apart many times. But after reading the Stories of Life on the Frontier and the Journals from FFE looking at the structure and the types of characters used - I am certain that the idea was kept alive in the lore atleast if not the game (but ya i still suspect that something like the langford basalisk might have slipped through). I remember people telling me there was nothing about raxxla or the dark wheel in the FEII or FFE stories... And I accepted it untill i started going through Holdstocks books and looking at themes and characters. They were Wrong - There are real tie ins to Holdstocks idea of what Raxxla is in there. The problem is people are coming with preconcieved ideas of what Raxxla is. And just because it doesnt say "The Dark Wheel" or "Raxxla" in the text .... doesnt mean that it isnt being talked about.

An obvious bit is Lady Kahina...Rebecca... Alista Marlbron.... Elyssia Fields.... They are pointing to the fact that there are Characters that Repeat throughout the story.... Mythagos... or as they are explained in Elite as Clones.... These same characters are repeated throughout Elite and other non-elite books by Holdstock. I suspect Holdstock was basing things off of Welsh Myth (among others) but also a play on the Red Book of Hergest ... with the Red book of Jung.... The Couple that Holdstock carries through theses stories is in atleast part related to Jungs' Philemon and Salome.... yup interesting that Drew chose the name Salome.... Of course Holdstock puts his own spin and there are layers and layers of alluions to similar mythical quests/journeys... I finally got around to reading Merlins Wood (Merlin and Vivien). Was Good.
FFE was an incomplete game. There was quite a controversy at the time. FD was essentially pressured by their publisher to release the game, before it was finished.
Many of the stories in the Journals were never published in the game. They were extracted from the source code. The Basilisk story is one of these stories.
If you read the unpublished stories in the Journals, it's easy to see that they are supposed foreshadow a follow-up game. The possible abandonment of relativistic time, suggests that the plan was a multiplayer game.
We have that multiplayer game now. It took about 20 years more than the plan, but we got it.
When FD made ED they would have had all those old stories and probably a bunch more that was never put into the FFE code, in storage. Some have been implemented, some have been changed and some have been abandoned. The same goes for the stories that were actually in the game. A lot of it has been implemented and retold in the Codex, Galnet and tourist beacons. Other central concepts like half the Federal population being androids and the Empire consisting mainly of clones, have been toned down or completely erased from history.

All the old games have had literature that has hinted of mystery but with the excretion of the Thargoids in FFE, nothing was ever implemented in the games.

In ED there are mysteries in the game. Some are inspired by the old games and their literature. Our problem is that we can never tell if an old story means anything, without having it verified in ED. For the stories that we have verification of, we can never really tell if they have anything to do with Raxxla.
 
Specifically, burn this into your brains:

"I would say his intention was always to include Raxxla, The Dark Wheel, and references that would provide a narrative continuance. I worked with that in mind, preserving and developing the hints given in the background from Frontier: Elite 2 and Frontier First Encounters. I don't know how far they got on game implementation of that narrative but he would always reply confidently that it was in the game."

- Allen Stroud, 2021, this thread.


Raxxla is a Holdstock invention, he developed the concepts for the Dark Wheel novella not DB nor IB, they of course gave him contexts for the game mechanics but it was Holdstock who developed the Raxxla myth.

Raxxla is a Holdstock Invention but based on a whole set of mythic traditions. It is the path of enlightenment*

*I am adding a caveat because I suspect it is enlightenment with a twist.... Just like Utopias are never wonderful places and sometime esoteric paths of clues turn out to be someones laundry list. Or maybe the god of enlightenment is Yog Sothoth...


Also worth mentioning that Holdstock's books (not TDW) are not public domain and FD do not hold the rights to any of those stories or characters.

Authors take characters and storylines from other authors all the time. One chain of stories comes to mind.... Jorge Luis Borges wrote Death and the Compass ... Stansislaw Lem wrote the Chain of Chance ..... Umberto Eco wrote Foucaults Pendulum.
 
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