Opinion: 10 LY range for colonization is ridiculously low.

[Alien]

You said:

"because most BGS mechanics only work within 10-20 LY"

Also, others have also tried to make the case that FD are keeping it short because BGS mechanics don't work beyond normal BGS range.

I think Frontier are being very conservative with their idea of what range is needed, with a view to one of these options:
a) Keep it as it is because they decide 10LY is fine
b) Extend the range after release because at that point they realise 10LY is not enough
c) Extend the range during testing because they realise 10LY is not enough
d) They have extended the range already and just haven't told us yet.

I think players have done the right thing here and given their feedback that 10LY is not enough. I think the consensus among almost all or most of the players is 10LY is not enough. What we can't agree on is how much is enough. Some say 20LY and some say as much as 500LY and some even more than that.

 

[Jmanis]

You said:

"because most BGS mechanics only work within 10-20 LY"

Also, others have also tried to make the case that FD are keeping it short because BGS mechanics don't work beyond normal BGS range.

Yes, most BGS mechanics only work within 10-20 LY. And people saying that are exactly correct; they don't work.

That is not the same as saying "they're broken"... though I won't speak for others.

Your mobile phone only works (as a mobile phone) within X range of a cell tower. If you go outside that, (for planning purposes) it ceases to work. That doesn't mean your phone is broken, it just ceases to function (as a phone). Maybe "Operate" is the word I should use?

Maybe we're getting hung up on colloquialisms, so I'm not going to split hairs. But without other systems nearby, a host of activities cease to operate. From missions, you won't see any of:

• Salvage
• Source
• Delivery
• Massacre
• Hijack
• Courier
• Non-vip passenger transport

Depending on other factors i haven't worked out... you might not even see mining or charity either (sometimes this is the case, sometimes this isn't). You also won't see market interactions between the different systems which leads to diverse pockets of varying commodity supply and while FD will undoubtedly address the "single faction would be in perma-expansion" issue, that's still going to be an issue because this is how it ends up, due to the lack of most any activity being possible due to the restrictions of being isolated.

People then say "Oh, well people can just build out more colonies". This is where things get screwey as you plunge further into BGS mechanics. Things like massacre stacking (the most lucrative bounty-hunting activity) relies on there being only a single anarchy faction within 10Ly of the system... the more anarchy factions exist, the less stackable they are, and the less lucrative it becomes. The same logic applies to the stacking of most missions. tl;dr more colonies would in-general decrease the overall utility and benefit for players[1].

While I'm pretty sure players don't want colonies that do nothing, I'm almost certain players don't want more colonies to decrease the opportunities they can get from them. Putting that all together though, on the assumption we just said "infinite colonisation range for everyone" , then the outcome of that would be a system that:

• literally introduces nothing new except "put colony here"; and
• That let's players create some of the most boring colonies ever.

Bluntly, it's impossible to ignore those considerations,,, though in fairness, FD have released updates in ignorance of many issues in the past, and they continue to suffer the consequence of some very, very old issues now.

My focus is the building, and having that remote system with a station out in the middle of nowhere exactly where I want it. If someone else wants to show up and play BGS, they're welcome to, but I'd already have everything I want. No missions? As if setting up the next neighboring colony isn't my entire focus when I'm not using it as a launch point for exploring.

I mean... good for you... but whether you personally do it or not doesn't matter; BGS interactions is something FD have said Colonisation colonies would do. If you want to try and convince them otherwise, fill your boots.

Based on your comment though, I don't think you understand what's meant by the BGS here. I'm not talking players playing backyard politics.... I do focus on missions because they're the primary vector for changes within the BGS though. The BGS is everything that makes a colony exist.

[1] Because the game's economy has never been balanced. But I won't get back on that horse right now.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Yes, most BGS mechanics only work within 10-20 LY. And people saying that are exactly correct; they don't work.

That is not the same as saying "they're broken"... though I won't speak for others.

Your mobile phone only works (as a mobile phone) within X range of a cell tower. If you go outside that, (for planning purposes) it ceases to work. That doesn't mean your phone is broken, it just ceases to function (as a phone). Maybe "Operate" is the word I should use?

Maybe we're getting hung up on colloquialisms, so I'm not going to split hairs. But without other systems nearby, a host of activities cease to operate. From missions, you won't see any of:

• Salvage
• Source
• Delivery
• Massacre
• Hijack
• Courier
• Non-vip passenger transport

Depending on other factors i haven't worked out... you might not even see mining or charity either (sometimes this is the case, sometimes this isn't). You also won't see market interactions between the different systems which leads to diverse pockets of varying commodity supply and while FD will undoubtedly address the "single faction would be in perma-expansion" issue, that's still going to be an issue because this is how it ends up, due to the lack of most any activity being possible due to the restrictions of being isolated.

People then say "Oh, well people can just build out more colonies". This is where things get screwey as you plunge further into BGS mechanics. Things like massacre stacking (the most lucrative bounty-hunting activity) relies on there being only a single anarchy faction within 10Ly of the system... the more anarchy factions exist, the less stackable they are, and the less lucrative it becomes. The same logic applies to the stacking of most missions. tl;dr more colonies would in-general decrease the overall utility and benefit for players[1].

While I'm pretty sure players don't want colonies that do nothing, I'm almost certain players don't want more colonies to decrease the opportunities they can get from them. Putting that all together though, on the assumption we just said "infinite colonisation range for everyone" , then the outcome of that would be a system that:

• literally introduces nothing new except "put colony here"; and
• That let's players create some of the most boring colonies ever.

Bluntly, it's impossible to ignore those considerations,,, though in fairness, FD have released updates in ignorance of many issues in the past, and they continue to suffer the consequence of some very, very old issues now.

I mean... good for you... but whether you personally do it or not doesn't matter; BGS interactions is something FD have said Colonisation colonies would do. If you want to try and convince them otherwise, fill your boots.

Based on your comment though, I don't think you understand what's meant by the BGS here. I'm not talking players playing backyard politics.... I do focus on missions because they're the primary vector for changes within the BGS though. The BGS is everything that makes a colony exist.

[1] Because the game's economy has never been balanced. But I won't get back on that horse right now.

Agreed, let's not split hairs, its just how I read your post.

And all of this is fine for those looking to set up remote colonies. Perhaps some people are missing this. They are not looking to recreate the bubble experience far out in the black, just the ability to set up a system, with their adopted faction ideally, and have a place to call home remote from the bubble.

On the topic of missions, one thing FD did say was that depending on what you built would determine the economy of the system, so if you focus on making it a tourist system your mission board will be full of long range passenger missions. So that's something.

So far we only know that the created system will have 1 faction for sure. The one who sold you the construction beacon. Be interesting to see if FD will also populate those systems with a few other random native factions that spawn in on creation. That would create a normal BGS dynamic and then setting up other systems nearby would extend this. You probably would end up with a Ceos/Sothis type BGS in that case.

In short, people who are fine with a boring BGS will be fine with setting up remotely. Those who want to set up a system with a dynamic BGS can set up within BGS range. For me though, that's pretty boring, there's tens of thousands of systems in the bubble where I can work the BGS, just adding yet another system to the bubble, albeit one i'm the architect of, is a lot less interesting to me that setting one up way out in the black.

 

[Disemboweled Ego]

On the topic of missions, one thing FD did say was that depending on what you built would determine the economy of the system, so if you focus on making it a tourist system your mission board will be full of long range passenger missions. So that's something.

I think long range tourist missions are based on the station and not system economy so from what I gather you could get them in any system if it meets whatever prerequisites there are for building one.

 

[Jmanis]

Agreed, let's not split hairs, its just how I read your post.

And all of this is fine for those looking to set up remote colonies. Perhaps some people are missing this. They are not looking to recreate the bubble experience far out in the black, just the ability to set up a system, with their adopted faction ideally, and have a place to call home remote from the bubble.

On the topic of missions, one thing FD did say was that depending on what you built would determine the economy of the system, so if you focus on making it a tourist system your mission board will be full of long range passenger missions. So that's something.

So far we only know that the created system will have 1 faction for sure. The one who sold you the construction beacon. Be interesting to see if FD will also populate those systems with a few other random native factions that spawn in on creation. That would create a normal BGS dynamic and then setting up other systems nearby would extend this. You probably would end up with a Ceos/Sothis type BGS in that case.

In short, people who are fine with a boring BGS will be fine with setting up remotely. Those who want to set up a system with a dynamic BGS can set up within BGS range. For me though, that's pretty boring,...

But like i said in response to a similar post...FD have said colonies will interact with the BGS. That people care for it or not is irrelevant... the factors of BGS and their impact must be part of that design, which would explain the 10Ly limitation.

The summary is that if people want beyond (IMO, 20Ly) then FD need to work out how the BGS interactions will work[1], since they've said colonies will do this.

[1] i would presume that part of the design means neighbouring BGS conditions will impact how a colony develops. If not... well... that's a choice...

 

[K Olley]

But like i said in response to a similar post...FD have said colonies will interact with the BGS. That people care for it or not is irrelevant... the factors of BGS and their impact must be part of that design, which would explain the 10Ly limitation.

The summary is that if people want beyond (IMO, 20Ly) then FD need to work out how the BGS interactions will work[1], since they've said colonies will do this.

[1] i would presume that part of the design means neighbouring BGS conditions will impact how a colony develops. If not... well... that's a choice...

Actually some of us don't even know what BGS means or stands for.

Some of us don't find the need to fly around Massacring NPC's or any other similar gameplay.

When they said Colonisation I expected an expansion out into the far flung expanse not a case of building a block of flats in my own back yard.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

But like i said in response to a similar post...FD have said colonies will interact with the BGS. That people care for it or not is irrelevant... the factors of BGS and their impact must be part of that design, which would explain the 10Ly limitation.

The summary is that if people want beyond (IMO, 20Ly) then FD need to work out how the BGS interactions will work[1], since they've said colonies will do this.

[1] i would presume that part of the design means neighbouring BGS conditions will impact how a colony develops. If not... well... that's a choice...

Sorry, maybe i missed something, but I don't see why they need to consider this at all.

Can you explain?

 

[Nowski]

When they said Colonisation I expected an expansion out into the far flung expanse not a case of building a block of flats in my own back yard.

The name of the feature is "System Colonisation", not "Colonisation". It implies nothing more or less than populating unpopulated systems and by itself carries no indication about the remoteness or otherwise of the systems to be colonised.

For that, I think it's better to look at the explicit mention of building "roads out into the black", colonising "new areas", "long range colonisation", and "mini bubbles" with tendrils that "reach out into the deepest parts" in the livestream itself.

My take is that "we're going to start with the bubble" and the initial 10LY range are conservative values to start the beta with. Probably later we'll have a bunch of remote colonisation contacts, but only a moderate improvement on the range to 25LY or so, allowing true "mini bubbles" to develop fully outside the bubble, but not covering the whole galaxy with a fine lace of isolated colonised systems.

Though I defilnitely see the appeal of "my incredible system out in the middle of nowhere" I'd be fine with the above scenario, maybe with CGs to kick off colonisation contacts at remote populated systems, starting with Colonia perhaps.

 

[Jmanis]

Sorry, maybe i missed something, but I don't see why they need to consider this at all.

Can you explain?

Colonies built under this mechanic will interact with the BGS. FD said as much.

Most BGS mechanics are limited to 20Ly.

Therefore, if FD wanted to expand the expansion limits beyond 20Ly, they'll need to work out how that's going to work within the context of the BGS, because BGS interactions are what FD said colonies would do.

I'd be fairly confident that behind the scenes, FD are aware of the limitations that would entail.

Actually some of us don't even know what BGS means or stands for.

You play the game?

If so, you interact with the BGS. It's inextricable.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

The name of the feature is "System Colonisation", not "Colonisation". It implies nothing more or less than populating unpopulated systems and by itself carries no indication about the remoteness or otherwise of the systems to be colonised.

For that, I think it's better to look at the explicit mention of building "roads out into the black", colonising "new areas", "long range colonisation", and "mini bubbles" with tendrils that "reach out into the deepest parts" in the livestream itself.

My take is that "we're going to start with the bubble" and the initial 10LY range are conservative values to start the beta with. Probably later we'll have a bunch of remote colonisation contacts, but only a moderate improvement on the range to 25LY or so, allowing true "mini bubbles" to develop fully outside the bubble, but not covering the whole galaxy with a fine lace of isolated colonised systems.

Though I defilnitely see the appeal of "my incredible system out in the middle of nowhere" I'd be fine with the above scenario, maybe with CGs to kick off colonisation contacts at remote populated systems, starting with Colonia perhaps.

Interestingly, since we are talking about system colonization, building starports and bases, I wonder why we couldn't become architects of existing systems to develop them further.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Colonies built under this mechanic will interact with the BGS. FD said as much.

Most BGS mechanics are limited to 20Ly.

Therefore, if FD wanted to expand the expansion limits beyond 20Ly, they'll need to work out how that's going to work within the context of the BGS, because BGS interactions are what FD said colonies would do.

I'd be fairly confident that behind the scenes, FD are aware of the limitations that would entail.

And yet, there are already systems more than 20LY from other systems, already disconnected from the wider BGS, so if there were any problems, they are already solved.

 

[Tifu]

Interestingly, since we are talking about system colonization, building starports and bases, I wonder why we couldn't become architects of existing systems to develop them further.

This is a fantastic idea! I would much rather pour into resources to a potentially good but underdeveloped system than go through the BST (Blood, Sweat & Tears) process of colonizing a new one.

 

[K Olley]

Me, I am just chucking ideas into the air in the hope that maybe they may be read by those that have some influence in the game progression.

Though I defilnitely see the appeal of "my incredible system out in the middle of nowhere" I'd be fine with the above scenario, maybe with CGs to kick off colonisation contacts at remote populated systems, starting with Colonia perhaps.

Depending on how much may have changed since I was last out there, the Colonia area could do with a couple of colonies dedicated to Tritium mining.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

But like i said in response to a similar post...FD have said colonies will interact with the BGS.

Yes - though that's possibly just a way of saying that they'll have an NPC population and won't be under complete player micromanagement of the markets, like a FC. Even with 10 LY chaining it should be possible to set up both highly weird and highly boring BGS situations for those who want to try, especially if colonisation is not a pure "permanent expansion" mechanism and a chain could be broken. There are plenty of isolated systems already (even, at a 10 LY range, within the main body of the bubble) which "interact with the BGS" perfectly fine even if the mission boards are blank-to-boring.


I suspect the more likely reason for keeping things very short range and restricted to just building outwards from the bubble itself (i.e. not even any inhabited system) is crime and specifically Detention Centres. Set up a new system a long way from one; set up a bunch more; get a bounty and now you can't access any station services (because you forgot to import any other factions, or didn't give them a station, or they lost it), "hand yourself in" teleports you 15000 LY if you use it, as does getting shot down, and the nearest Interstellar Factor is 3000 LY away.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Depending on how much may have changed since I was last out there, the Colonia area could do with a couple of colonies dedicated to Tritium mining.

Given the level of demand compared with supply, it'd need a couple of hundred extra orbital refinery stations of a decent size to make much difference, maybe more.

 

[K Olley]

You play the game?

If so, you interact with the BGS. It's inextricable.

Occasionally, - Approximate game time: 90W 4D 13H 8M

Some of that time has been in the bubble but most out in the black.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

This is a fantastic idea! I would much rather pour into resources to a potentially good but underdeveloped system than go through the BST (Blood, Sweat & Tears) process of colonizing a new one.

If only I could build a Coriolis station at Planet 1 in our home system rather than having to fly 7-8 thousand LS every time!

 

[Jmanis]

Yes - though that's possibly just a way of saying that they'll have an NPC population and won't be under complete player micromanagement of the markets, like a FC. Even with 10 LY chaining it should be possible to set up both highly weird and highly boring BGS situations for those who want to try, especially if colonisation is not a pure "permanent expansion" mechanism and a chain could be broken. There are plenty of isolated systems already (even, at a 10 LY range, within the main body of the bubble) which "interact with the BGS" perfectly fine even if the mission boards are blank-to-boring.

So, these are exactly my points, I guess.

Does FD really want to let people create "boring" systems? Can you imagine someone who really doesn't look twice at the BGS going "Gee, can't wait to make a colony out in the middle of nowhere, just like the colonies in the bubble and... oh... I can't do much out here. Is this really what all the fuss was about?". Like sure... I'm certain as there are here right now that there's people who are fine with that... but it's not exactly a "killer update" to pitch it like that is it? TBH, I think it's a very dangerous proposal to expand the radius and not head off that situation.

The weird edge-cases you get which cause Robigo/Massacre stacking, and the impact on isolated colonies are, in my opinion, actually examples of the BGS not functioning correctly. It's true that you could say the BGS works "perfectly fine"... but as an analogy... if you lend me your car and I ask "Is it working fine?" and you say "Yes", and I arrive to find I can't drive your car because it's got no petrol in it... well... it's not working fine. It's out of petrol. I'm sure the car itself is entirely functional... but can I drive it? No... it's just sitting there doing nothing.. it's a redundant example of the car working. Your car certainly isn't broken, but it sure isn't working either.... "Task Failed Successfully" sort of stuff.

Much like the BGS, i wouldn't really call it working considering it's role is to simulate "the living, breathing galaxy" if, thanks to a system's isolation, it doesn't really do much because of an equivalent case of "there's no petrol in the tank", being that there's no other systems within 20Ly. There's a lot that could feasibly still occur (and I feel, should) without other populated systems nearby.

Spoiler: Stuff

This would include (all flavours of) Massacres, Assassinations, Surface Salvage, Hijack, Source, Surface Scan, Surface Skimmer Hits, which could happily occur in empty systems (where relevant, just sink the "destination" effect if substituted out with a generic "pirate" faction just like for Odyssey missions)... probably more that I'm not thinking of too.

Additionally, many more dependent on destinations such as bulk passenger, delivery, courier and other mission types could occur to domestic ports as well, but don't for whatever reason.

Of course, there's still risk of those weird edge-cases where you end up with an overrun of one mission type; but that could pretty easily be addressed with a hash[1] of common mission parameters per-mission generation, which you'd need to collect anyway.

[1] Non-computed... so massacres would just be [system][targetfaction], for example.

Then there's market influences and such... i mean, sure, there's a risk that if you leaned too hard into things then the extant remote systems, given they're usually extraction or tourist systems, enter permanent states of famine because there's no food around.

But if "how does my new colony get food, because " isn't a specific consideration of how the Colonisation mechanic works... then are we really talking a mechanic that is just "buy beacon, deliver X widgets, get station... pay Y for more stations" and that's it? Location and types of planets in the system/neighbouring economies are meaningless? Sheesh... this is looking like a really thin feature if that's not part of the scope here.

The skinny is... I don't consider the BGS just idling because it can't work out anything to have a system do to be "working".

I think ultimately, regardless of how the BGS currently operates, if expansion can be anywhere in the galaxy beyond that 20Ly range of most BGS mechanics, then we're saying "Nothing matters" when it comes to system selection... which sounds like a pretty bad system for Colonisation.

If stuff does matter like FD is saying, then no-more-than 20Ly is going to make a lot of sense, and those current "very remote" colonies are either A) Fine, because they're already established (as the impact is only during establishment), or B) suddenly going to have a lot of famine and outbreaks (because the impact is enduring).

I suspect the more likely reason for keeping things very short range and restricted to just building outwards from the bubble itself (i.e. not even any inhabited system) is crime and specifically Detention Centres.

Oh that would be a troll and a half XD

FWIW, I've been focused on the missions side of it because "that's what I'm most familiar with"... but I'd also call the crime & punishment system part of the BGS.

Occasionally, - Approximate game time: 90W 4D 13H 8M

Some of that time has been in the bubble but most out in the black.

So you've had first discoveries, be it planets or exobio, and been the first player into a system, ever, right?... and presumably sold that data at some point, whether on your FC or at a port. That's all BGS. It's not just factions...

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Does FD really want to let people create "boring" systems?

Why should they care? If it makes people happy with the feature, why not?

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Does FD really want to let people create "boring" systems? Can you imagine someone who really doesn't look twice at the BGS going "Gee, can't wait to make a colony out in the middle of nowhere, just like the colonies in the bubble and... oh... I can't do much out here. Is this really what all the fuss was about?"

That sort of thing I don't think is the most likely source of "boring" stuff, though, with a long/unlimited range.

"I've put down a colony and a bunch of stations but I'm not getting many missions from them"
"It just needs another system nearby, ask a friend to set one up for you if you're not done building that one. Maybe add a few more factions too."
... sure, it's not ideal, but it's an easy fix that people would figure out and document quickly. Maybe a few systems on the very fringes of the galaxy couldn't do that but they're probably mainly being set up for the view/UC sales/etc rather than any in-system activities where the BGS "matters" anyway.


The most boring systems will probably be the ones created by min-max BGS faction warfare players who know exactly what they're doing and why
- no Horizons settlements, they're just liabilities
- no Odyssey settlements, they're just liabilities
- maybe even deliberately break as many mission types as possible because missions are (well, usually) the main way to boost secondary factions
- one station (though a big one) because multiple stations make it easier for asset ownership to get spread around, increasing maintenance
- pick a location to make passing traffic of any sort unlikely
etc. etc. and a lot of that has nothing to do with where the system is relative to others