DLC20 Discussion (maybe, but why not?)

Were you able to create a diverse zoo with the base roster of Planet Zoo, or Zoo Tycoon 1 or 2? Frontier needs the game to be profitable. If they bring back all the animals from PZ1 to PZ2 they'd have nothing to sell to casual crowds. We are wayyy past ABC animal territory.
Nope. But I aspire to build and recreate increasingly realistic and complete zoos... Let's say for example that they integrate the new paths system that PC2 has but we won't be able to build bridges or tunnels... because we can't have everything... Nobody assumes this because it's not logical, however with animals, for some reason that I can't understand, it's supposed to be logical to have something new but stop having something we already had...

And yet they continue to release and sell DLCs having passed the ABC animals... Without taking into account that, in a hypothetical PZ2, the sales incentive could be in the new flying birds and aquatic animals that could constitute 70% of the DLCs leaving the rest to animals that the community still wants.
 
My gut feeling for the PZ2 roster is that we'll get a large chunk of the main DLC animals (things like the jaguar, polar bear, a New World monkey or two, baboon), perhaps less direct clones (so maybe only the grizzly bear, not the HBB, and maybe we get the spurred tortoise in the base but not the Aldabra), but they'll still leave a few to resell alongside birds. In this way, for Frontier, it's a middle ground - they give us what they reasonably can in the base game without sacrificing quality, and make the DLC more attractive by giving us something they didn't in PZ1.
 
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Sending for hopes ... :D
 
Intentionally withholding content purely for profit is not going to work.
I also doubt that selling dlcs headlines by coatis and muntjacs is going to work early in a sequel's lifespan with general audiences. So I guess the question is is how in depth are the aviary and aquarium systems, and whether or not they can carry dlcs.

If they go with the JWE2 route and we can only do massive enclosures for the big aquatic animals, but not the intricate indoor aquariums that are more common in zoos worldwide, the potential aquatic roster would be very limited. And if aquariums and aviaries are as limited as the current exhibit system it would reduce their appeal a lot.
 
And yet they continue to release and sell DLCs having passed the ABC animals... Without taking into account that, in a hypothetical PZ2, the sales incentive could be in the new flying birds and aquatic animals that could constitute 70% of the DLCs leaving the rest to animals that the community still wants.
I don't want to delve too much into this discussion because frankly it has become a very black and white situation where I think there ought to be much more grey; but I do want to weigh in on this.

Making aquatic and flying birds be 70% of your DLCs is a very risky choice. Not only are there plenty of people who don't care for birds or aquatic animals; but on top of that, Frontier has already burned themselves on that. It's not as pointed out here as often; but one of the major criticisms PC2 got was that it leaned way too much on the waterpark side of things (the equivalent of birds and aquatics) instead of improving other areas of the game (as a separate critique from not having all the base game themes). I don't see them making that mistake twice, so I don't think that that's a route they're willing to take with their DLCs.

That being said, I also just don't think you can go for the same amount of DLCs with them being 70% fish and aquatics. People will go "clone" just as quickly as they did now, the moment there's more than one vulture you'll have a bunch of people saying it's an eagle clone. I'd personally want more DLCs which in turns means more development time which means more time for feedback on our side; but to me that's just as valid as people wanting all the animals right away.

(Again, don't want to get dragged into the discussion whether either side is right; I understand both sides of the argument and there's things to be said for both)

My gut feeling for the PZ2 roster is that we'll get a large chunk of the main DLC animals (things like the jaguar, polar bear, a New World monkey or two, baboon), perhaps less direct clones (so maybe only the grizzly bear, not the HBB, and maybe we get the spurred tortoise in the base but not the Aldabra), but they'll still leave a few to resell alongside birds. In this way, for Frontier, it's a middle ground - they give us what they reasonably can in the base game without sacrificing quality, and make the DLC more attractive by giving us something they didn't in PZ1.
Yeah, for me the sequel has to be better first and foremost.

To me, that means that unlike last time, the base game roster should have ,proportionally to their popularity in zoos, enough animals per classic region so we can make decent zoos. We shouldn't start with another scenario where you can barely make a South American area, where there's basically only one Oceanian animal in the game, etc. In my opinion, 5 habitat animals for the commonly smaller sections in zoos vs 10 to 15 for the larger sections should at least be there to get started.

I personally then don't care that much about whether a specific animal is in or not. If we have a better base game roster for South American animals for instance with things like coati, saki, capybara, giant anteater, macaws, etc. then I'm not going to be mad about the capuchin not making it in in the base game. Because then the sequel has a better starting point to me than the original had, and with all the potential other upgrades I'm going to be able to make a better zoo than I was able to do in the first game.
 
Games are not made to be art, they are made to be profitable.
Video games are objectively an art form, anyone who says otherwise doesn't know the definition of art. And of course, art is a product that can be bought and sold. This point is kind of moot.
The gaming industry in general, and Frontier specifically, are in a bad situation currently. How do you think they can make a profitable game in the current industry if they don't carve out spaces for DLCs like they did in PZ1 with leaving many ABC animals (and animals for the first game in the sequel) out of the base roster?
They don't have to be in the roster at launch, they just have to not be re-sold. If Frontier cannot exist without doing this, maybe they shouldn't exist. I will hold no sympathy for obvious greed.
How is that financial model supposed to work? And unlike JWE where they can just "invent" cool models because dinosaurs don't have a real life definite model, they can't do it with animals. They can't invent new animals to have demand.
If PZ2's big mechanics are aviaries and aquaria, then those should be what's used to make more money. No only is it less greedy, it also expands on the selling points of why a sequel exists in the first place. Hell, aquaria fish would probably be cheaper to develop than megafauna since they aren't as animated.
 
My gut feeling for the PZ2 roster is that we'll get a large chunk of the main DLC animals (things like the jaguar, polar bear, a New World monkey or two, baboon), perhaps less direct clones (so maybe only the grizzly bear, not the HBB, and maybe we get the spurred tortoise in the base but not the Aldabra), but they'll still leave a few to resell alongside birds. In this way, for Frontier, it's a middle ground - they give us what they reasonably can in the base game without sacrificing quality, and make the DLC more attractive by giving us something they didn't in PZ1.
I know this is what’ll end up happening, and again I will still buy the game. But it still feels very scummy to your loyal and dedicated base who has been there from the beginning. That is all that I’m saying.
another wolf is a nightmare. But the lions smirk in that picture is funny 😂
 
That said, this thread has got incredibly off topic, debating jurassic park movies and planet zoo sequels. In an effort to get back on track: what's everyone's choice, if you could lock in one species for the upcoming DLC? Personally, I know it's controversial, but I've gotta take the Asiatic Lion
If the theme is India, my personal fav from what is not on the keyart would be Nilgai. I love their weird proportions with their small head, haha. Otherwise I would love the Great White Pelican, but I do not have much hope for them.

Look at that small head compared to the rest of the body.
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They don't have to be in the roster at launch, they just have to not be re-sold. If Frontier cannot exist without doing this, maybe they shouldn't exist. I will hold no sympathy for obvious greed.
I don't like this definition of "greed" being a medium game company trying to make profit. We are not talking about Amazon employing children in sweatshops in third world countries to cut costs, but about a mid-sized game company in the EU trying to be profitable.

Just because they have at one point created an asset for one game does not make them greedy for not giving it for free in a different game. We are not entitled to the labour of the devs just because we bought it in one game. Also, do you feel they are being greedy for nor giving you easy animals right now? We are likely a few hours of dev work away from some "reskinned" animals like the guanaco, various gazelles and several monkeys. Should we boycot until we get the easy reskins because these are assets Frontier already has and does not give us for free?
 
Honestly, I'm curious how many of us would pay for PZ2 with, let's say, 80 species and a few updates like paths, birds.... Because if even a significant percentage of this community which is mostly made up of hardcore fans wouldn't buy it, then I can already predict the outcome.
If those 80 animals have more interactions which each other, maybe another growth stage, good sound work, fur variants, maybe individual character, other additional features or improvements I can't think of right now: Yes. Absolutely.
If they are just ported over from PZ1 with no major feature changes I would take a step back and at the very least consider waiting for a sale.
To me, that means that unlike last time, the base game roster should have ,proportionally to their popularity in zoos, enough animals per classic region so we can make decent zoos. We shouldn't start with another scenario where you can barely make a South American area, where there's basically only one Oceanian animal in the game, etc. In my opinion, 5 habitat animals for the commonly smaller sections in zoos vs 10 to 15 for the larger sections should at least be there to get started.
I like that take and think that would actually be a brilliant move from Frontier.

Regarding the water park vs. theme park discussion: The argument I heard after release a lot was: "This is Planet Coaster 1.5 and the waterparks could have been a DLC." Which I totally agreed on at that time, it must be said. For me, even pathes and scaling did not justify the sequel enough.
Now, with some stuff they bring out with the updates now and some probably upcomming changes (dark ride functions etc.) I think it would definately move from 1.5 to 2 down the line. So with PZ2, I'd say Frontiers steps forward just need to be a little bigger at release and not feel like so much backwards. (Leaving out old themes, security guards and resturants and gift shops where maybe one of the biggest let downs, it felt like really starting from scratch).
 
I don't like this definition of "greed" being a medium game company trying to make profit. We are not talking about Amazon employing children in sweatshops in third world countries to cut costs, but about a mid-sized game company in the EU trying to be profitable.
Red herring. The existence of worse greed doesn't invalidate lesser greed. Anyone can be greedy, it's not a trait exclusive to the top 1%.
Just because they have at one point created an asset for one game does not make them greedy for not giving it for free in a different game. We are not entitled to the labour of the devs just because we bought it in one game.
We bought it for one game, I would strongly argue that re-used models for a game in the same engine should not have a additional cost because there is nothing provided that justifies an additional purchase. It's literally buying something you already owned. I don't see how that's anything but greed.
Also, do you feel they are being greedy for nor giving you easy animals right now? We are likely a few hours of dev work away from some "reskinned" animals like the guanaco, various gazelles and several monkeys. Should we boycot until we get the easy reskins because these are assets Frontier already has and does not give us for free?
That is labour that has not yet existed, a completely separate point from labour that's already being done but is being charged at full price twice. I'm entitled to the llama model I already bought, I'm not entitled to a guanaco model that has yet to exist.
 
In an effort to get back on track: what's everyone's choice, if you could lock in one species for the upcoming DLC? Personally, I know it's controversial, but I've gotta take the Asiatic Lion
Coconut crab!

I realize that's unlikely, but I gotta mention it when I can
Otherwise, I really want the King Cobra (preferably as a habitat animal but I realize that's a lot to ask) or some other species unique from the current roster.
 
In an effort to get back on track: what's everyone's choice, if you could lock in one species for the upcoming DLC? Personally, I know it's controversial, but I've gotta take the Asiatic Lion
Mine's even more controversial...
It is Golden Jackal
I'd love this roster. We don't have a hot desert Grey wolf subspecies unless you count the Dingo... LOL
 
The act of saving some animals for DLCs and recharging for assets they've made in a sequel game doesn't seem greedy to me. Demanding stuff for free is greedy. If they put too many animals in DLCs and overcharge for them, I might not want to buy them, or I wouldn't feel good about spending a lot of money on re-used assets if I don't see work put in to make them better. That's business.

I'm more concerned about the sequel seeming 'complete' at launch. It seemed crazy that there were no moose, kangaroo, African rhino, South American monkey, jaguar, anteater, capybara, penguin, pinniped, or tundra animals close to launch, with not even a roadmap to say when they would be coming. I want all of the basics ready to go for the base game or quickly after. As others have said, I want the full roster of PZ1 in PZ2, even if that means getting a few of the animals in DLCs. Of the 200+ animals, there are only a handful I don't care for or want swapped, and I'd rather pay more for all of them than lose some of my favorites with the updated features. A complete roster, or at least an eventual guarantee of one, is what I'm hoping for.
 
In an effort to get back on track: what's everyone's choice, if you could lock in one species for the upcoming DLC? Personally, I know it's controversial, but I've gotta take the Asiatic Lion

Bengal slow loris for me! I've been craving a loris since Twilight.

But I'm with you on the lion and I think it's a likely pick. An opportunity to provide a more beautiful and accurate lion without redoing old work. I'm hyped about the (possible) elephant for the same reason, but am also just an elephant fan so delighted to be getting another one. If it's the Sri Lankan subspecies I hope it has a variety of pink colour morphs and fuzzy heads (they are quite fluffy up close!)
 
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