Hardware & Technical The Joystick discussion thread
Logitech Extreme 3D Pro
I got the Logitech Extreme 3D Pro for £15 off ebay a week ago and have been practicing on Oolite. After many years of only using keys (in fact, not doing much gaming at all) I've struggled a bit but I'm pretty sure that's just my skill level. Joysticks have moved on quite a bit since I last used them!
So far I'm pretty happy with the purchace so for a budget stick it seems pretty good to me. I can't speak for the other sticks at all.
I got the Logitech Extreme 3D Pro for £15 off ebay a week ago and have been practicing on Oolite. After many years of only using keys (in fact, not doing much gaming at all) I've struggled a bit but I'm pretty sure that's just my skill level. Joysticks have moved on quite a bit since I last used them!
So far I'm pretty happy with the purchace so for a budget stick it seems pretty good to me. I can't speak for the other sticks at all.
Good idea for a thread, Alextended!
I only use keyboard and mouse for the PC at the moment and I have to buy a stick quite soon. The sensible part of me thinks a budget stick is a good idea to start out with (although the real me knows he wants a Saitek x52 pro and nothing is going to stop him!).
I look forward to reading other players views about budget sticks.
I only use keyboard and mouse for the PC at the moment and I have to buy a stick quite soon. The sensible part of me thinks a budget stick is a good idea to start out with (although the real me knows he wants a Saitek x52 pro and nothing is going to stop him!).
I look forward to reading other players views about budget sticks.
The best two of the bunch are the TM Hotas X and the Logitech 3D... personally, i would go with the first one because you can detach the throttle and put that on the opposite side of your keyboard, and also get the option to use the rudder both by twisting the stick (which i always disliked) and/or using the lever on the back of the throttle
The logitech however has a better button layout on the stick, and is apparently of better quality overall
The logitech however has a better button layout on the stick, and is apparently of better quality overall
Is your exclusion of the T.16000M due to a lack of experience with it or its build quality really impacting its performance? At this moment (I keep changing mind so it doesn't mean much) I'm tempted with it as it is the only budget stick to utilize hall sensors, supposedly the same type as the very high end Thrustmaster Warthog. If they had been offering a Hotas X version with that technology I'd have probably already jumped on it. Though, if you're speaking from experience, what about some negative reports of the throttle on the Hotas X, that could negate a lot of the advantage of even having it (outside the left hand rudder, which the Black Widow also has mind) over the stand alone joysticks. And what do you mean by the Logitech's better overall quality, is that in terms of build quality, the materials and such, or its actual flight performance in terms of deadzones, precision and sensitivity, which I would think would elevate it above the Hotas X no matter what else as the most important aspect of a joystick.
Edit: apparently there's another hall sensor budget joystick, the Cobra M5. But I can't find that to buy anywhere that ships here, not even Amazon UK, and there are too few impressions of it online. Like I said, the more I read the harder the decision gets. If I had remained ignorant of the potential of hall sensors I'd have probably happily bought the Hotas X already, lol.
Edit: apparently there's another hall sensor budget joystick, the Cobra M5. But I can't find that to buy anywhere that ships here, not even Amazon UK, and there are too few impressions of it online. Like I said, the more I read the harder the decision gets. If I had remained ignorant of the potential of hall sensors I'd have probably happily bought the Hotas X already, lol.
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I don't have direct experience with those, but just as you are doing now, i've made some extensive searching when i decided to replace my trusted Sidewinder Precision Pro last year, and was scrutinizing the exact same models that you posted above.
Regarding the T.16000, the problem with the very low quality buttons was almost unanimous, which is a shame because the sensors were praised...
The logitech is generally seen as durable and reliable, but i had already decided against a "tiny integrated throttle" layout, since it was the only thing i didn't like about my MS one.
So, my first choice was the Hotas X, which seemed good enough for the price, in terms of quality and feature... however, in the end, i bit the bullet and went straight for a higher budget stick (X52 pro) and didn't regret the decision.
Regarding the T.16000, the problem with the very low quality buttons was almost unanimous, which is a shame because the sensors were praised...
The logitech is generally seen as durable and reliable, but i had already decided against a "tiny integrated throttle" layout, since it was the only thing i didn't like about my MS one.
So, my first choice was the Hotas X, which seemed good enough for the price, in terms of quality and feature... however, in the end, i bit the bullet and went straight for a higher budget stick (X52 pro) and didn't regret the decision.
Yeah, everyone says the buttons on that suck, but if they work that's fine, the worries come from the reports saying they actually are prone to malfunctions after little use, but there are plenty reports of people who say the stick has lasted them for years (or is still going). Yes it's cheap plastic but for the price range there's not going to be anything without comrpomises, we just need to find those with the compromises in the right areas, rather than those with compromises that defeat their whole point by gimping the quality of the various axis input and your ability to fly and fight with it. The thing is that even if I did decide to spend 3x or 4x the amount of some of these for something like the x52 Pro, there are enough reports of that too leaving a lot to be desired for me to worry and doubt that decision also, even more so given the price tag (and the likelyhood of the cheaper but still pricy non pro version being far worse). But I really can't justify the cost to begin with so that's a moot point. The 2nd hand market is probably too risky for such products also, you never know how much abuse they've taken even if they happen to function at first.
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I wouldn't discount the T16000, it has a good name with quite a few flight-simmers. The bane of any joystick is when axis inputs lose resolution and start to 'spike,' something which can happen quite soon with typical budget sticks; the hall sensors more than compensate for a cheap feel on the buttons IMO.
I wouldn't discount the old Microsoft sidewinder force feedback 2 either. It's out of production so you'd be looking at ebay, but it has really outstanding reputation for build quality, accuracy and durability. This is reflected in the ebay prices, which are compatible to the examples you give above. I wouldn't touch most 2nd hand joysticks, but for this one I'd make an exception.
I wouldn't discount the old Microsoft sidewinder force feedback 2 either. It's out of production so you'd be looking at ebay, but it has really outstanding reputation for build quality, accuracy and durability. This is reflected in the ebay prices, which are compatible to the examples you give above. I wouldn't touch most 2nd hand joysticks, but for this one I'd make an exception.
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I've been using the Thrustmaster T.Flight Hotas X for most of the recent games in Retro lave and can't complain. Of course it's a compromise, but so far I'd say it's a really solid budget joystick.
Do yourself a favour!
Do not buy a second hand stick whatever the make is.
Considering your going to be spending many hours interacting with the game via a Joystick/Hotas/controller, why skimp at this point as surely this is the most important and personal part for each individual and how they get the most out of the game.
The most mentioned stick so far is X52 pro perhaps that's a hint.
Do not buy a second hand stick whatever the make is.
Considering your going to be spending many hours interacting with the game via a Joystick/Hotas/controller, why skimp at this point as surely this is the most important and personal part for each individual and how they get the most out of the game.
The most mentioned stick so far is X52 pro perhaps that's a hint.
Just picked up a Thrustmaster T.Flight Hotas X from amazon. just to test the waters, I'll probably upgrade at some point.
Be sure to post impressions after configuration and playing. Mainly for the stick precision and such.
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I'd just chip in with a little thought. I wouldn't go for the joystick with the slidey button throttle. They're a real pain. Even the little lever on my ancient (but still working on my new Win7 PC!) Sidewinder Pro is a better option than that. Whatever you choose, make sure the throttle is intuitive.
If the rest of the stick is worse having a better (but all things considered nowhere near a separate full size throttle) throttle won't make it the better choice no questions asked, will it? If the throttle is that bad it can be relegated to a few buttons, keys, or other switches, if the actual maneuvering axis are bad they can't really be replaced sufficiently. From the stand alone joysticks only the Logitech Extreme 3D Pro seems to have a mini lever rather than slider, otherwise there are the low end hotas from Thrustmaster and Speedlink or nothing. Edit: the Cyborg F.L.Y 5 too, it apparently even has a switch to separate the throttle in two independent halves. I do kind of love how that looks, not at all low budget, but there are a few too many reports of failures with buttons breaking completely off being the most common issue. My dream low budget stick would be looks and functions of the F.L.Y 5 with the hall sensors of the T.16000M and the build quality of the Logitech, or something, but nothing like that seems to exist, lol.
I should wait to see if manufacturers will get off their butts and make some low end model refreshes (again, like a new T.Flight Hotas X with hall sensors and maybe a hat switch thrown in) if not all new stuff. But there's always the risk of the refreshes being worse rather than better than their predecessors to cash in on the upcoming possible sim craze season and I'm starting to want one too badly to make the wait bearable! Plus, the only known upcoming product is the x55 which is likely high end.
I should wait to see if manufacturers will get off their butts and make some low end model refreshes (again, like a new T.Flight Hotas X with hall sensors and maybe a hat switch thrown in) if not all new stuff. But there's always the risk of the refreshes being worse rather than better than their predecessors to cash in on the upcoming possible sim craze season and I'm starting to want one too badly to make the wait bearable! Plus, the only known upcoming product is the x55 which is likely high end.
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Microsoft Precision Pro make sure you get one that comes bundled with USB adapter. Pretty cheap on fleabay.
From wiki 'The only moving parts were mechanical on the throttle and joystick pivots which gave this joystick virtually unlimited lifetime.'.
From wiki 'The only moving parts were mechanical on the throttle and joystick pivots which gave this joystick virtually unlimited lifetime.'.
I Guess I'm Too Rough With My Stick....
After some frenzied pressing of Button Two (Situated on the end of the stick on the lower left hand side.) on my Saitek Cyborg F.L.Y. 5 PC Flightstick has now broken off. I was hoping it may have just unclicked and could be re-clicked back into place. But on closer inspection I can see the where plastic had actually snapped apart. It's looks like those buttons were pretty weakly implemented and were likey to do this. It's not like I was bashing the stick against he desk. I merely releasing some missiles in Mission Four of the Elite - Dangerous - Game Alpha.
With the careful application of small wad of Blu-Tack, it seems to be fixed for the time being . I just tested it now in the same mission and it still works. Providing I press it more carefully and I will be pressing the other buttons just like it more carefully as well.
I had my doubts about this joystick's design when looking at it's photos, but brought it anyway, because of the Saitek brand name and that it was only $60.00 AUD. Perhaps the Gamesmen who I ordered it from via Ebay early last month may replace it or refund me. As I said, I don't think I abused it in a way it shouldn't have been. If I can find the receipt, perhaps they will.
After some frenzied pressing of Button Two (Situated on the end of the stick on the lower left hand side.) on my Saitek Cyborg F.L.Y. 5 PC Flightstick has now broken off. I was hoping it may have just unclicked and could be re-clicked back into place. But on closer inspection I can see the where plastic had actually snapped apart. It's looks like those buttons were pretty weakly implemented and were likey to do this. It's not like I was bashing the stick against he desk. I merely releasing some missiles in Mission Four of the Elite - Dangerous - Game Alpha.
With the careful application of small wad of Blu-Tack, it seems to be fixed for the time being . I just tested it now in the same mission and it still works. Providing I press it more carefully and I will be pressing the other buttons just like it more carefully as well.
I had my doubts about this joystick's design when looking at it's photos, but brought it anyway, because of the Saitek brand name and that it was only $60.00 AUD. Perhaps the Gamesmen who I ordered it from via Ebay early last month may replace it or refund me. As I said, I don't think I abused it in a way it shouldn't have been. If I can find the receipt, perhaps they will.
After some frenzied pressing of Button Two (Situated on the end of the stick on the lower left hand side.) on my Saitek Cyborg F.L.Y. 5 PC Flightstick has now broken off. I was hoping it may have just unclicked and could be re-clicked back into place. But on closer inspection I can see the where plastic had actually snapped apart. It's looks like those buttons were pretty weakly implemented and were likey to do this. It's not like I was bashing the stick against he desk. I merely releasing some missiles in Mission Four of the Elite - Dangerous - Game Alpha.
With the careful application of small wad of Blu-Tack, it seems to be fixed for the time being . I just tested it now in the same mission and it still works. Providing I press it more carefully and I will be pressing the other buttons just like it more carefully as well.
I had my doubts about this joystick's design when looking at it's photos, but brought it anyway, because of the Saitek brand name and that it was only $60.00 AUD. Perhaps the Gamesmen who I ordered it from via Ebay early last month may replace it or refund me. As I said, I don't think I abused it in a way it shouldn't have been. If I can find the receipt, perhaps they will.
I also purchased a Saitek model identical to yours. Nothing is "broken" on it, but it does feel pretty cheap and plasticky, nowhere near as solid as I would want it to be. The stick itself feels a little bit too loose, and while the positional information translated into coordinates in games and the Windows driver itself is still accurate, the amount of give in the stick before you actually apply force on the actual axes is too much for fine control... And I can't imagine being able to be heavy handed with the stick considering it feels like nothing in my hand when I pick it up by the grip.
It's a shame, because the throttle feels OK (even though the throttle axes appear to have been misaligned somehow).
The next time I decide to purchase a stick it won't be one with the same type of assembly at the base that interfaces with the stick. That appears to be the weak point (the Thrustmaster looks like a huge improvement on this).
That joystick looks like a cross between my old Cyborg Evo and a throttle block.
Nothing wrong with that, but they were designed for light use. Really slamming the thing around didn't help it much. I had days and days
of fun in Lock-On with that stick until some nump stole the wireless dongle
The more expensive sticks are heavier, more springier, more buttons, and just feel better. It's hard to quantify. Try one out, see for yourself
Nothing wrong with that, but they were designed for light use. Really slamming the thing around didn't help it much. I had days and days
of fun in Lock-On with that stick until some nump stole the wireless dongle
The more expensive sticks are heavier, more springier, more buttons, and just feel better. It's hard to quantify. Try one out, see for yourself
Well, I finally caved and ordered a T.16000M. I'll post impressions when it arrives in a few days if all goes well. I've reacquired games to test it with in preparation (Freespace 2, Tachyon: The Fringe, Independence War 2, Oolite, Wing Commander Privateer, Wings of Prey) yet I don't have faith it will last all that long so opinions on all the alternatives are still appreciated.
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