External View [A definitive discussion]

[NeilF]

Those who want to see their ships vents open via a magical third person view (whether locked from combat or flight or not) wish to exchange some extra visual gratification (which the novelty will wear off) for the undermining of "in" cockpit immersion (which is associated with in cockpit limitations).

You're maybe overlooking that any/all situations can be enjoyed more fully from an external view. ie: Something unusal is happening, you have the option of flicking to external view to enjoy it more?

Frontier have stated that are making "the game they want to play" whilst taking into account the views and ideas of supporters. I think it would be a real shame if those making the most noise were to get their way and get a "magical" third person view which would undermine one of the core dynamics of the Elite: Dangerous experience.

Let's not get carried away now please.

Your comment, "those making the most noise," comes across poorlysurely if those making "noise" are doing it as constructively as possible?

I am not against an external view made available within the confines of the player "in" the cockpit (ie. cockpit accessed external mounted cameras or a drone).

Just imagine an external camera made available to fit a hardpoint which can be used to record with the footage available to be played back later.

Can you explain why you are seemingly against a fairly traditional, simple external view (As suggested in the OP)?

 

[nats]

Is this argument still going on? God, all they have to do is remove and targeting information from the 3rd person view and that would sort every issue that people have against it right? If it was only useful for looking around your ship and it wouldnt convey any advantage at all in combat what is the argument here? And really, who cares if it gives you a bit of assistance in your docking? I mean, really - so what?

The fact is it is a necessity for a lot of people so see the outside of their ship and look around it, I honestly wouldnt enjoy playing the game half as much if I couldnt.

Several different types of external view (chase, flyby, rotatable) are absolutely crucial for any flight sim/space sim game these days - or else they would become only suitable for the ultra-hardcore audience and that, my friends, would sound the death knell for this game I am sure.

Its a serious issue with flight sims at the moment that they are either overly simple or ultra hardcore, there are none in the middle unlike the 90s when there were loads of brilliant 'light sims' around. I really hope this game doesnt start repeating that trend for the revived space genre as well! That would be terrible.

 

[popuptoaster]

Is this argument still going on? God, all they have to do is remove and targeting information from the 3rd person view and that would sort every issue that people have against it right? If it was only useful for looking around your ship and it wouldnt convey any advantage at all in combat what is the argument here? And really, who cares if it gives you a bit of assistance in your docking? I mean, really - so what?

Not great arguments, even without targeting information you could still park your ship in cover, use third person view and relay information to a friend in another ship and that's just the first thing i thought of.

If players want to see outside views let them wait until they can EVA and get out and have a look, I have no objection if someone wants to get out of their ship and hang onto an asteroid, peeking over the edge to provide tactical information.

I really hope Fd stick to their guns on this one and don't let the more vocal minority spoil it for the rest of us.

 

[Riedquat]

Personally, I find having the option to use external views or fly-by cameras much more immersive than being locked into a cockpit view.

I use these camera views all the time in other simulations (DCS, Silent hunter, Arma, total air war (many moons ago) ).

What would Star wars of been without those glorious fly by shots of the millenium falcon or tie fighters ?, seeing those certainly added to the film for me rather than ruin the immersion.

I think the cockpit only view is thing of the past and is something that should of been left behind with the original.

Its purely for immersion, looking at your ship in all its glory or watching it cruise by slowly as you approach a spacestation can only be a good thing.

Cant wait until it is implemented

Not great arguments, even without targeting information you could still park your ship in cover, use third person view and relay information to a friend in another ship and that's just the first thing i thought of.

this is good by the way, this is exactly what Mr Braben wants people to do, work together.

 

[Rog]

TBH, if FD *couldn't* add a simple camera drone with enough limitations to keep the 'NO' camp (mostly) happy, and still keep within their design aims, I'd be frankly amazed.

There's really nothing here to get heated up about. It's a space game for heaven's sake (pun intended), and I would suspect that a lot of people who buy the game after launch (not necessarily forum people) will be surprised at such an omission.

May as well design it in properly at an early stage rather than have to add it later.

Not great arguments, even without targeting information you could still park your ship in cover, use third person view and relay information to a friend in another ship and that's just the first thing i thought of.

Well you wouldn't be hidden if your external camera drone showed up automatically on everyone's scanners would you. You'd be making yourself more of a target.

 

[TerranAmbassador]

Yoohoo!!!!

Obligatory "Make it a feature of the groups system" post.

It's not an issue if no one in the instance has a problem with it.

You could even have a traditional 'god-view' third-person view without gimmicks, the taking away of functionality, or the loss of choice.

Is this perhaps something that should be discussed? I think it is.



EDIT: Discussion, yay! Volume turned down.

 

[NeilF]

Not great arguments, even without targeting information you could still park your ship in cover, use third person view and relay information to a friend in another ship and that's just the first thing i thought of.

Why would you need external view to achieve that. You could do that from cockpit view. Just the first thing I though of

If players want to see outside views let them wait until they can EVA and get out and have a look, I have no objection if someone wants to get out of their ship and hang onto an asteroid, peeking over the edge to provide tactical information.

See OP - "Purpose": [Click here]

I really hope Fd stick to their guns on this one and don't let the more vocal minority spoil it for the rest of us.

Personally I hope FD make an intelligent and informed decision... ie: If external view can be offered at no cost to fair gameplay... what's the problem.

Why not comment on what you consider the issues are with the proposal in the OP for example?


ps: The fact you throw in rhetoric like "minority" and "spoil" isn't constructive, and actually damages your argument IMHO.

 

[NeilF]

Obligatory "Make it a feature of the groups system" post.

It's not an issue if no one in the instance has a problem with it.

You could even have a traditional 'god-view' third-person view without gimmicks, the taking away of functionality, or the loss of choice.

Is this perhaps something that should be discussed? I think it is.

Because, I suspect:-
1) Most people don't want combat via external view. Frontier certainly don't.
2) People don't want to be limited to not having an external view by one random person nearby with an opposite setting. eg: You see an amazing sight coming out of a space station, and cannot enjoy the view using an external view because some random person has a contrary setting.


There is a fairly simple list of "behaviour" & "limitations" in the OP which I feel is pretty close to a solution IMHO. If anyone can point out a problem or improvement, great!

 

[popuptoaster]

Why would you need external view to achieve that. You could do that from cockpit view. Just the first thing I though of

Because you can't look round an asteroid without exposing your ship from the cockpit view but you could from third person view.

Here is a clear example of seeing what you should not be able to see because of third person and would totally undermine anyone using stealth to stay off the scanner.

See OP - "Purpose": [Click here]

Personally I hope FD make an intelligent and informed decision... ie: If external view can be offered at no cost to fair gameplay... what's the problem.

Why not comment on what you consider the issues are with the proposal in the OP for example?

I have done, further back in the thread, but as the thread is still going on then obviously people are taking no notice of the reasons the majority don't want this.

ps: The fact you throw in rhetoric like "minority" and "spoil" isn't constructive, and actually damages your argument IMHO.

Add up the no votes in the poll and you will see third person fans are in the minority, thus getting third person view WOULD spoil the game for the majority that dont want it by giving an advantage to those who do.

 

[CoSm1c gAm3r]

See "Proposed Behaviour" and "Limitations" in OP - [Click here]

See "Common Arguments: It will break immersion" in OP - [Click here]

Sorry to point you back to the OP, but your points/concerns have all be discusssed numerous times before and therefore been covered numerous times before. The whole purpose of this thread is try and address that

In short, if any proposed external view is offered in such a "nerfed" way it infact doesn't of an advantage in combat, but a dis-advantage, what's the issue?

I don't understand nothing from that reply.
You maybe use weird for me combination of words. Note that english is my second language not main.

I would further add: have the camera droid be part of a ship's subsystem, that way it could be targeted and shot down by an enemy ship to negate the spying advantage. A mechanic like this would help balance the game better.

This could also be extended to a rear view camera mounted on our ship. Again, the mounted camera would become a sub-system, to be targeted and taken out by an enemy ship while they are flying on our six.

Not long ago I already described that

 

[TerranAmbassador]

1) Most people don't want combat via external view. Frontier certainly don't.

Fair point. But that was just to try to help illustrate the point the that I'm trying to make, not a specific suggestion.

Because, I suspect:-
2) People don't want to be limited to not having an external view by one random person nearby with an opposite setting. eg: You see an amazing sight coming out of a space station, and cannot enjoy the view using an external view because some random person has a contrary setting.

I don't quite understand what you're saying here. Maybe I should explain.

Private groups are going to be invitation only, correct? You cannot get in unless the person who created and owns the group permits it.

What I'm envisioning is, upon the creation of a private group, one of the options available is "Allow external view (Y/N)". If checked yes, everyone in the group has access to an external view (probably something similar to what you're suggesting, though something like EVE's camera wouldn't be bad), but is not required to use it. Basically, anyone who joins is essentially saying "Yeah, I'm okay with other people having a third-person view".

You do not join this group if you have a problem with it allowing third-person. This could even have a confirmation pop-up like:

Warning - The owner of this private group has
allowed the use of external views.

Are you sure you want to continue?​

Of course, if you have an issue with other people using a third-person view, you wouldn't seek to join it anyway, nor would I imagine that you would much associate with those that do use it.

My other point is that limitations such as those describe in your OP are not necessarily needed; if no one in the instance has an issue with the feature, there's little to no need to compromise; i.e. there's not necessarily a need to have ships run hot or impose a delay in the activation.

The idea behind the suggestion is to allow those to whom third-person adds to their enjoyment of the game be catered to, while not affecting those who either dislike it, or simply don't care. Like with the expansions, all you need to do is just not use it, either by not joining a group that allows it or not initiating it yourself.

It would do this by restricting the use of third-person to solo-online, solo-offline, and private groups. That last one allows for the possibility of the use of external views in activities such as machinimas (the "Star Wars" shots, if you will) involving more than one actor or participant. The first two should be self-evident since it doesn't really matter in those.

 

[NeilF]

Because you can't look round an asteroid without exposing your ship from the cockpit view but you could from third person view.

Indeed you could, at least to some degree, and it's a very good point of discussion.

Can I ask though, rather than comparing this situation to a soldier 1ft from a wall, if we actually compare it to a ship a certain distance away from a huge possible moving/spinning lump of rock, how well would the sitution play out? And how would it be any different from doing the same but from (the better/safer position of in) your cockpit, running "cold"? Remember, one of the suggested limitation of running in external views it that your ship runs hot (obviously not ideal for hiding).

So in this scenario, is external view really such an advantage now? Bearing in mind the suggested behaviour means you don't even have a scanner to see? A ship could be coming up from any direction and you'd be none the wiser unless you happened to catch it with your eyesight. The scanner (in the cockpit) would be far superior surely?

I have done, further back in the thread, but as the thread is still going on then obviously people are taking no notice of the reasons the majority don't want this.

Please state what these reason are so we can discuss them? If there's actual issues/problems it could be we could easily resolve them, or all see a completely valid problem.

IAdd up the no votes in the poll and you will see third person fans are in the minority, thus getting third person view WOULD spoil the game for the majority that dont want it by giving an advantage to those who do.

You're adding up the results of a somewhat poorly put poll that in actuality is nothing to do with original post. People have voted on a poorly set poll.

I suspect maybe people who have voted against it, have:-
1) Believed the proposition is full gameplay in external view. Yuk!
2) Based their decision on images like the one you've posted without maybe considering the simple ways of addressing it?

If the poll instead asked, "If an external view can be offered without any tactical advantage (and possibly a dis-advantage) would you want it?" What do you think most (rational) people would vote?

 

[NeilF]

Private groups are going to be invitation only, correct? You cannot get in unless the person who created and owns the group permits it.

What I'm envisioning is, upon the creation of a private group, one of the options available is "Allow external view (Y/N)". If checked yes, everyone in the group has access to an external view (probably something similar to what you're suggesting, though something like EVE's camera wouldn't be bad), but is not required to use it. Basically, anyone who joins is essentially saying "Yeah, I'm okay with other people having a third-person view".

Oh! I understand! My bad!

The problem with this is, I simply do not see FD ever offering Elite with an external view designed for general gameplay:-
1) Because it's clearly not the way they want to go.
2) It would break the game into two diverse modes of play, one of which they clearly do not endorse.

Furthermore, if we find an external with the behaviour and limitations along the lines of those suggested in the OP work perfectly, and offers no (real) tactical advantage, it would be very annoying not to be able to use it when ever you want, which surely would be the desired goal for many people? (ie: Someone nearby has not joined this group?)

 

[NeilF]

I don't understand nothing from that reply.
You maybe use weird for me combination of words. Note that english is my second language not main.

OK! The point I was trying to make is that the first/original post in this thread is an attempt to simplify the topic down.

Alot of people have raised the same concerns over an external view over and over, and suggestion/answers to these have been raised over and over.

As such the first/original post in this thread (I feel) addressed most/all of your points.

In short, I suspect many people asking for an external view do not want a typical "arcade" game play experience. ie: They do not want to fly around and fight in this view. They simply want it to periodically enjoy the view of the Elite Dangerous universe to a great degree.

If you look through the first/original post hopefully you'll see a summary of what a lot of people asking for an external view would like. And hopefully you'll see the suggested behaviour and limitations are clearly there to not give this view any sort of gameplay (combat) advantage (and quite possibly give it a gameplay/combat disadvantage). But it will allow players to enjoy particular moments in the game with a far better view point.

 

[Theodrid]

I am generally against an external view, though my position is not set in stone, there are very valid reasons on both sides of this argument.

@NeilF

I think the problem with your opening post that you keep referring people to Neil is that it doesn't really cover the concerns that are 'addressed' in the OP.

Just a few examples :-

Common arguments - see around things, the potential advantages of this are not 100% addressed in Limitations 3, in fact, that constitutes a fairly small percentage of the potential 'exploitation' of an external/see around things view.

Common arguments - Greater FOV - just because it will take a few seconds to re-enter cockpit view, you will have no HUD and be running hot does not entirely cover/protect against the FOV issues.

Common arguments - not realistic - just because there are other examples of unrealism it does not automatically equate to 'there should be more' or 'one more wont hurt', in fact the fewer unrealistic things we have in game the more realistic it is, by contrast the more unrealistic things we have the more unrealistic it is.

If this is to be a truly definitive discussion then your opening post should be more balanced in my opinion. I realise you are a great advocate of the 3rd person view, and I respect that, but I think you should adopt a more devils advocate approach in your OP. Make the OP more balanced in its concerns/solutions/potential issues rather than the slightly 'rose tinted pro 3rd person' post that it is now.

 

[TerranAmbassador]

Oh! I understand! My bad!

1) Because it's clearly not the way they want to go.
2) It would break the game into two diverse modes of play, one of which they clearly do not endorse.[/I]

I should have clarified, my bad. What I was talking about in regards to that "like EVE's camera" (though thinking about it, Kerbal Space Program's camera might be a better example) comment was one which could pan and rotate around its own axes, in addition to to zoom and rotation centered on the ship, in order to allow dynamic angles in screenshots and recordings.

Furthermore, if we find an external with the behaviour and limitations along the lines of those suggested in the OP work perfectly, and offers no (real) tactical advantage, it would be very annoying not to be able to use it when ever you want, which surely would be the desired goal for many people? (ie: Someone nearby has not joined this group?)

My understanding of the groups system is that you simply don't get match-made with people outside your group. You just don't see them and they don't see you. You are placed in separated, self-contained instances and don't interact. You're still online, but walled off from anyone in the all online, solo-online, or other private groups.

That's the behavior that my suggestion is intended to take advantage of.

 

[popuptoaster]

OK! The point I was trying to make is that the first/original post in this thread is an attempt to simplify the topic down.

Alot of people have raised the same concerns over an external view over and over, and suggestion/answers to these have been raised over and over.

As such the first/original post in this thread (I feel) addressed most/all of your points.

In short, I suspect many people asking for an external view do not want a typical "arcade" game play experience. ie: They do not want to fly around and fight in this view. They simply want it to periodically enjoy the view of the Elite Dangerous universe to a great degree.

If you look through the first/original post hopefully you'll see a summary of what a lot of people asking for an external view would like. And hopefully you'll see the suggested behaviour and limitations are clearly there to not give this view any sort of gameplay (combat) advantage (and quite possibly give it a gameplay/combat disadvantage). But it will allow players to enjoy particular moments in the game with a far better view point.

It has been pointed out again an again that,

1. Even a non combat view could and will be used to gain a combat advantage even if the devs attempt ways to stop it, just look at how fast some players worked out how to fly an Anaconda in the alpha test despite it not even being finished yet so see ingenuity at work.

2. You will be able to EVA so you can watch any sight you choose to watch simply by getting out of your ship and there is no problem if you choose to risk your puny human body in a combat environment, in fact it could add considerable gameplay options that flying cameras do not add.

3. If you really MUST watch yourself doing some amazing stunt that means you HAVE to be at the controls of your ship, then you could get someone else to video your stunt and post it on youtube in the same way as happens with current FPS games.

4. The game is going to feature pilots that can get out of the ship and wander around, again third person could easily give advantages in those situations.

5. Many of the games design choices have been driven by DBs desire to not have the game feel like you are just a floating camera and you guys seem to want to add in a floating camera!

6. Game feels just fine as it is, you can see your ship while outfitting it, and the view works really well while flying.

7. A lot of contrived restrictions on when and where you can use an external view would also not fit in with the games style when it is using as much realism as is possible with a futuristic space game. Remote camera drones may well be possible but if you have them in game how do you explain why you can't use them in combat.

8. It's just a crappy idea that the majority don't want, you can assume the poll is wrong and that people answered it without reading the original post just because it doesn't agree with your view point if you like, but as it stands it indicates most people don't want third person.

 

[NeilF]

Common arguments - see around things, the potential advantages of this are not 100% addressed in Limitations 3, in fact, that constitutes a fairly small percentage of the potential 'exploitation' of an external/see around things view.

Can you suggest a gameplay scenario where you feel where (given the suggested behaviour and limitation) where an external view will give any sort of practical advantage?

If we consider the common argument that you can see around things, typically an asteroid, we seem to be in a fairly contrived unrealistic situation don't we? We're parked next to an asteroid (moving?) and keeping behind it, and using external view to gain a few tens of degrees of view angle advantage? While all the time, being vunerable to missing the obvious ships around us because we have no scanner? Surely the cons outweigh any possible advantage(s)?

And this is before even raising the optional limitation that your ship runs hot, making you stand out like a sore thumb while you're trying to hide?

Are there any other scenarios not involving an asteroid?

Common arguments - Greater FOV - just because it will take a few seconds to re-enter cockpit view, you will have no HUD and be running hot does not entirely cover/protect against the FOV issues.

Can you suggest such a scenario/issue? Given to flick in/out of external view is currently suggesting leaving you out of control of your ship for 8-10 seconds (during transition), and scanner less etc too.

Common arguments - not realistic - just because there are other examples of unrealism it does not automatically equate to 'there should be more' or 'one more wont hurt', in fact the fewer unrealistic things we have in game the more realistic it is, by contrast the more unrealistic things we have the more unrealistic it is.

What's unrealistic about the suggested behaviour (ignoring option limitations)?

ie: Your view goes (totally) to an external drone. The drone takes X seconds to deploy. The drone takes X second to doc. And if we go with "run hot" limitation, the drone means you stand out like a sore thumb due to data transmission, or it constantly letting off heat or something?

As a comparison, I find the idea if you blow up that you can instantly restart again alive seems the most unrealistic thing about this "game". So for people to get "elitist" about what's realistic or not about an optional external view (they don't even have to use) seems a little contrived IMHO. Especially when it can all be explained far more realistically than other aspects of the game. eg: God like immortality.

 

[Memnoch]

I hope that the reluctant by FD to include a third person view is extended to EVA once it is released. I want to play this game from the first person perspective. "I" want to be that pilot, not someone watching the avatar of my pilot running around.

 

[TerranAmbassador]

I hope that the reluctant by FD to include a third person view is extended to EVA once it is released. I want to play this game from the first person perspective. "I" want to be that pilot, not someone watching the avatar of my pilot running around.

Alternatively, someone might want to watch their avatar running around.

Obligatory "Make it a feature of the groups system" post.