External View [A definitive discussion]

[SAB380]

I just got third person view working!

1st Person

Spoiler

3rd Person

Spoiler

Spoiler

I also just realised that I need a haircut!

GAH! Immersion forever destroyed!
Whenever I play I will now know that I once saw the back of your head !

 

[ToadMan]

It's to enjoy the game while seeing their ship - the atmosphere it gives and TBH just getting to watch your beautiful ship fly through space. Do it offline? Really? It's about enjoying that perspective while you play.

That's unfortunate for them. Many other space sims let you do that in all modes. ED doesn't though.

What corners are you planning on peeking around? Comparing combat in Elite to ARMA isn't really apples with apples. Also it's been said force to 1st person for combat.

Corners is an example. Of course ED will have various objects which might be used to conceal a ship but there are other issues.

For example, if you're in 3rd person and you are fired upon, you know immediately where the incoming fire is from, you know you've been tracked and fired upon.

With an external view you can look around while cruising, making an ambush more difficult. The fun of 1st person is your limited knowledge of the environment which leads every player to fly in a defensive way all the time...

As for non-combat I fear that is impossible. What constitutes combat? An effective player will set up the engagement before a shot is fired, as I've mentioned 3rd person will effect the way in which that is done.

What I'm trying to point out here is that other people using 3rd person affects the ability of others to use 1st person. By allowing 3rd person for some, you're effectively forcing others to use it. I'd rather ED stays different to other space sims in this regard.

You are only forced to a 3rd person if it gives you an advantage. You are assuming it will give a competitive advantage and surely it will be possible to do the exact opposite and make it a disadvantage.

I suspect it would give an advantage for the reasons I've mentioned. In order to check that, those wishing to use 1st person only would have to try 3rd person to check what is and isn't possible. So it's still effecting other peoples gameplay just having the mode there.

The disadvantages can be forced.
Your peeking around corners thing is hugely unlikely to often if ever be a problem in space combat and to re-iterate - force to 1st person in combat

Well SP only seems like a suitable disadvantage for mp use.... I'd prefer it not to be there at all because an exploit may make it available in mp and some will complain that they have it in sp and so must have it in mp eroding FD's position on the topic.

To re-iterate - what defines "combat"? I feel in ED that it is a game where one will always be in "combat" because of the pvp element. It is perhaps more akin to dayz in that regard.

I can think of one scenario where being able to peek while out of combat could give an advantage and that's when being hunted and in silent mode, say hiding on an asteroid. Even then, you do not gain much over what your scanner would tell you anyway (or force to 1st person if in such a scenario).

There are more than that one scenario that I can think of, and I'm not normally someone who finds devious uses for things in game. But really, the advantage gained is only part of the problem. The scanner doesn't show laser or gun fire for example whereas 3rd person view will.

The presence of 3rd person view, will force those who don't want to use it to experiment. If there is an advantage to it, it'll even force everyone to use it if they want to survive. That's really my point here - the inclusion of 3rd person means everyone is effectively forced to try it, and that's why I don't want the mode there for anyone.

Toad.

 

[Skulldugg3ry]

This could be immersive and not be game breaking if offered in the form of a camera droid available for purchase to any player. Once launched, you would assume control of it, and all controller input would go to steering the droid (in this way, it couldn't be used for combat).

It could be used to get a look at the damage you just took or to just marvel at the beauty that is your ship. It could even be used as a tactical camera to peek around that asteroid (within a limited range) but you are a sitting duck while using it.

To me, this solution provides immersion (game play remains "in the head" of the pilot - he simply sees thru the camera while piloting it), isn't game breaking (can't be used in combat, can't control ship while in use, is available as an optional purchase to all) and still provides the ability to marvel at the beauty of your ship.

 

[TerranAmbassador]

/me waves arms frantically

Another obligatory "Make it a feature of the groups system" post. It's not an issue if everyone in the instance agreed beforehand that it's okay.

EDIT 2:

Or maybe make it a piece of equipment. We're going to have equipment to take 'photos' for spy missions, right? Make those cameras controllable drones. To be able to use 'third-person' you have to have the requisite equipment already mounted.

It's the same thing as that EVA suggestion in the post above, expect you're using a piece of equipment instead of getting out of your ship. A piece of equipment that is otherwise a part of normal gameplay.

Yet another obligatory "Make it a feature of the groups system" post.

Make it so that 3rd person is available only in solo offline, solo online, and private groups where the owner of the group has allowed it as an option.

There. Possible solution. Discuss.

 

[TheSpackman]

I'll agree to disagree with you Toad and save us both repeating ourselves (to each other anyway)

 

[NeilF]

But as I already stated I am totally against 3rd person view or outside view in arcadeish form with instant camera change because it breaks LOGIC also immersion etc. for many players! (knowing that somebody may use that feature against them in MP break fun for them)

See "Proposed Behaviour" and "Limitations" in OP - [Click here]

See "Common Arguments: It will break immersion" in OP - [Click here]

Sorry to point you back to the OP, but your points/concerns have all be discusssed numerous times before and therefore been covered numerous times before. The whole purpose of this thread is try and address that

In short, if any proposed external view is offered in such a "nerfed" way it infact doesn't of an advantage in combat, but a dis-advantage, what's the issue?

 

[ToadMan]

In short, if any proposed external view is offered in such a "nerfed" way it infact doesn't of an advantage in combat, but a dis-advantage, what's the issue?

What is the definition of "in combat" and specifically how would you programmatically define the beginning and end of this state?

Toad..

 

[NeilF]

What is the definition of "in combat" and specifically how would you programmatically define the beginning and end of this state?

Toad..

Not sure what your question/point is?

I'm (we're) not suggesting any behaviour (logic) based specifially around "combat". The suggestion is to simply provide an external view that offers no advantage in the game; And to most people their biggest concern is an external view offering an advantage during combat, hence me explicitly mentioning it.

If you read the OP you'll see a suggested behaviour and how this (hopefully) overcomes people worries about an external view offering any sort of advantage (and infact it most likely being a disadvantage in key moments like combat).

 

[TheSpackman]

What is the definition of "in combat" and specifically how would you programmatically define the beginning and end of this state?

Toad..

In this context I would define it as the moment one person fires upon another. That would suffice.

I understand prep for combat situations could be seen to confer an advantage to a 3rd person view but if the transition into 1st person is done in such a way that, apart from the dis-orientation due to the context change alone, it ensures any advantage gained with the 3rd person view is more than eliminated by the transition (ie disable controls for a few seconds) and getting caned by an enemy who's in 1st person and way more ready for combat.

At an extreme, just force 1st person when other human players are in scanner range. Sorted. Given how much time, even in All mode, I'd expect to see other people this would be an acceptable (if not preferable nor I think required) compromise to me.

 

[TerranAmbassador]

/me starts feeling like a broken record

Yet another obligatory "Make it a feature of the groups system" post.

 

[[VR] Shadowman]

Not sure what your question/point is?

I'm (we're) not suggesting any behaviour (logic) based specifially around "combat". The suggestion is to simply provide an external view that offers no advantage in the game; And to most people their biggest concern is an external view offering an advantage during combat, hence me explicitly mentioning it.

If you read the OP you'll see a suggested behaviour and how this (hopefully) overcomes people worries about an external view offering any sort of advantage (and infact it most likely being a disadvantage in key moments like combat).

Absolutely, this. I really would love to see an external view, so I can spin around my ship during take-off/departure and admire the views. Non-combat sounds absolutely fine to me.

 

[Patrick_68000]

Absolutely, this. I really would love to see an external view, so I can spin around my ship during take-off/departure and admire the views. Non-combat sounds absolutely fine to me.

Yes during the fight, the external view could be locked. But available for viewing landscapes, space ships, space stations etc ...

 

[Cosmo Bozo]

Actually docking is another area where it could offer an advantage, if you are trying to dock a big ship it would be the equivalent of your passenger getting out to tell you how much room you have when performing a tight maneuver in your car.

 

[Robbie]

This could be immersive and not be game breaking if offered in the form of a camera droid available for purchase to any player. Once launched, you would assume control of it, and all controller input would go to steering the droid (in this way, it couldn't be used for combat).

It could be used to get a look at the damage you just took or to just marvel at the beauty that is your ship. It could even be used as a tactical camera to peek around that asteroid (within a limited range) but you are a sitting duck while using it.

To me, this solution provides immersion (game play remains "in the head" of the pilot - he simply sees thru the camera while piloting it), isn't game breaking (can't be used in combat, can't control ship while in use, is available as an optional purchase to all) and still provides the ability to marvel at the beauty of your ship.

I would further add: have the camera droid be part of a ship's subsystem, that way it could be targeted and shot down by an enemy ship to negate the spying advantage. A mechanic like this would help balance the game better.

This could also be extended to a rear view camera mounted on our ship. Again, the mounted camera would become a sub-system, to be targeted and taken out by an enemy ship while they are flying on our six.

 

[Cosmo Bozo]

I'm in favour of the camera drone idea, since it could also be used for recon. and there could be missions to fly a drone into a military base and take pictures, or to find a pirate base in a huge tunnel filled asteroid, or to take wildlife pics without scaring them off with a massive great ship....

And as mentioned, have drone control be a target-able system on your ship, as well as the drone itself being destructible.

 

[NeilF]

*ignore*

 

[Jack Booted Thug]

Actually docking is another area where it could offer an advantage, if you are trying to dock a big ship it would be the equivalent of your passenger getting out to tell you how much room you have when performing a tight maneuver in your car.

It is not simply that it would offer a docking advantage, particularly in the bigger ships. As it stands docking is very easy in first person anyway and due to the Cobra and Sidewinder being relatively small clearance is not a problem.

I would imagine that landing an Anaconda on the pad will take a little more time to get the "feel" for the clearance but this will not really be any different to landing a helicopter in Arma 2 or 3 in a confined area in first person. It takes a little getting used to but once one is comfortable it gives that extra level of excitement.

The concept of a 3rd person view completely undermines Frontier's intent of immersing the player as being "in" their ship. When in third person one is not "in" their ship and this one fact alone throws out the window any concept of a game where your commander is the actual pilot.

If I can fly or look around my ship via a magical third person view then I am no longer the pilot in my ship. I am pretty sure from reading the sentiment at Frontier that they don't want to break that concept via introducing a third person view.

Now this does not mean one cannot introduce a drone or external camera viewable "by the pilot" from inside the cockpit. But to take the view "out of the cockpit" would change the feel of the game considerable.

I for one commend Frontier on the "in cockpit" direction they seem to want which is a very rare game dynamic seen today.

 

[NeilF]

In this context I would define it as the moment one person fires upon another. That would suffice.

I understand prep for combat situations could be seen to confer an advantage to a 3rd person view but if the transition into 1st person is done in such a way that, apart from the dis-orientation due to the context change alone, it ensures any advantage gained with the 3rd person view is more than eliminated by the transition (ie disable controls for a few seconds) and getting caned by an enemy who's in 1st person and way more ready for combat.

At an extreme, just force 1st person when other human players are in scanner range. Sorted. Given how much time, even in All mode, I'd expect to see other people this would be an acceptable (if not preferable nor I think required) compromise to me.

I don't see the need to complicate the issue with the "IF COMBAT" behave one way, "IF NOT COMBAT" behave a different way. It's unuatural and overly complex, and full of ifs/buts/whens.

Just one set of behaviours and rules should apply across the board. And from what I've seen they easy can.

I would further add: have the camera droid be part of a ship's subsystem, that way it could be targeted and shot down by an enemy ship to negate the spying advantage. A mechanic like this would help balance the game better.

This could also be extended to a rear view camera mounted on our ship. Again, the mounted camera would become a sub-system, to be targeted and taken out by an enemy ship while they are flying on our six.

Seems a bit daft - The first thing everyone will have to do is therefore target any opponent's drone, which is just an unnecesary faff IMHO.

Just nerf an external view (drone) in a few subtle ways, and all these contrived behaviours dissappear IMHO. See the original/first post for some suggestions.

 

[psykokow]

I for one commend Frontier on the "in cockpit" direction they seem to want which is a very rare game dynamic seen today.

I would love a hud panel like the landing pad one that pops up when you are over the pad, that has camera feeds from cameras on the rear of the ship so you can see your blind spots or high points...

That would be great and it would keep you looking forward.

 

[Jack Booted Thug]

Those who want to see their ships vents open via a magical third person view (whether locked from combat or flight or not) wish to exchange some extra visual gratification (which the novelty will wear off) for the undermining of "in" cockpit immersion (which is associated with in cockpit limitations).

War Thunder attempted to immerse the player "in" the cockpit in their non-arcade modes and I think it worked pretty well. Unfortunately those modes are not as popular as the arcade mode which includes third person because they are not as "instant action" oriented (arcade mode also allows respawning and reloading in the air).

Frontier have stated that are making "the game they want to play" whilst taking into account the views and ideas of supporters. I think it would be a real shame if those making the most noise were to get their way and get a "magical" third person view which would undermine one of the core dynamics of the Elite: Dangerous experience.

I am not against an external view made available within the confines of the player "in" the cockpit (ie. cockpit accessed external mounted cameras or a drone).

Just imagine an external camera made available to fit a hardpoint which can be used to record with the footage available to be played back later.