External View [A definitive discussion]

[Jack Booted Thug]

I suspect maybe people who have voted against it, have:-
1) Believed the proposition is full gameplay in external view. Yuk!
2) Based their decision on images like the one you've posted without maybe considering the simple ways of addressing it?

If the poll instead asked, "If an external view can be offered without any tactical advantage (and possibly a dis-advantage) would you want it?" What do you think most (rational) people would vote?

The root issue actually has nothing to do with tactical advantage and therefore to present the "debate" within a paradigm of "tactical advantage vs no tactical advantage" is quite dishonest in my opinion. That is the same tactic 'talking heads' use to steer and limit debate. Let's not do it here.

Doesn't the clearly stated methodology of Frontier for their decision count for something? They have clearly stated that the fundamental reason for not wanting to implement a third person view has nothing to do with a tactical advantage fundamental but rather an immersion fundamental.

The reason Frontier does not want to implement a third person view is because it undermines the perspective of a player being IN their ship.

I think is was Sandro Sumomarkoiforgethisnamerightnow who addressed this on these forums.

If one can switch to a view where they are placed outside their ship it utterly destroys the fundamental objective of Frontier wanting players to be in their ship. Now if one can utilise a ship system from within the cockpit to gain access to an external view that is different but such a system should not be full screen unless the pilot puts one some kind of visual headset.

 

[Memnoch]

Alternatively, someone might want to watch their avatar running around.

Obligatory "Make it a feature of the groups system" post.

Citing the image posted above by popuptoaster where you can see behind a wall without looking over it as a reason why we shouldn't have it.

 

[ToadMan]

Not sure what your question/point is?

I'm (we're) not suggesting any behaviour (logic) based specifially around "combat". The suggestion is to simply provide an external view that offers no advantage in the game; And to most people their biggest concern is an external view offering an advantage during combat, hence me explicitly mentioning it.

If you read the OP you'll see a suggested behaviour and how this (hopefully) overcomes people worries about an external view offering any sort of advantage (and infact it most likely being a disadvantage in key moments like combat).

What is combat to you? You mention here "no advantage in key moments like combat" - when is "combat" and how is it measured to control the use of 3rd person?

The problem is that combat as far as I'm concerned starts with Elite as soon as I enter an instance (much like a WW2 engagement - the initial maneuovering is key). At that time I don't want any 3rd person view. A shot may never get fired, but the possibility of engagement exists and a 3rd person view will mean everyone spends time sweeping the area around their ship. In order to be safe, everyone will be forced to do that same thing. Thus assenting to your request to have a 3rd person view means I am forced to use it...

So, you can see the definition of "combat" is very important if that is how you propose to limit the 3rd person use.

My only solution is to make the 3rd person view so disabling as to make any pilot a sitting duck while using it. To that end, a 3rd person view where the shields are dropped, the craft is bought to a halt and is uncontrollable to the player, the view moves randomly around the ship, there is no HUD and there is a 10 second timer to get both in and out of it would probably be enough to make it worthless for anything other than picture taking. Something like that would be OK.

Any controllability from 3rd person view is very undesirable in my opinion.

Toad.

 

[TerranAmbassador]

Citing the image posted above by popuptoaster where you can see behind a wall without looking over it as a reason why we shouldn't have it.

Following this train of thought for a moment, the perspective can't be used against you if you're not in the instance to get shot at.

EDIT:

And anyone who gets dependent on it, and then moves back to all online is SOL when they're stuck with first-person only.

The idea is to cater to the thirds without affecting the firsts. Hence, no third-person in the all online group.

 

[NeilF]

It has been pointed out again an again that,

1. Even a non combat view could and will be used to gain a combat advantage even if the devs attempt ways to stop it, just look at how fast some players worked out how to fly an Anaconda in the alpha test despite it not even being finished yet so see ingenuity at work.

How is it an advantage? Give an example please.

And if we're getting into those realms of "hacking", then an external view will be hacked in so let's give an official one

2. You will be able to EVA so you can watch any sight you choose to watch simply by getting out of your ship and there is no problem if you choose to risk your puny human body in a combat environment, in fact it could add considerable gameplay options that flying cameras do not add.

Three problems with this:-
1) You will NOT be able to EVA, until/unless they offer it. If they don't ever offer it, you'll never get.
2) I suspect an EVA will be a right faff? Will people want to spend a minute doing stuff to see the event unfolding outside their ship better? That fleet of Anacondas would have flown off by then!
3) If it instead offers a quick an easy means of getting an external view great! But then how will it not be used for the very advantages you are concerned about?

3. If you really MUST watch yourself doing some amazing stunt that means you HAVE to be at the controls of your ship, then you could get someone else to video your stunt and post it on youtube in the same way as happens with current FPS games.

See "Purpose" in the OP. I suspect most people want to see what's happening to them better, at that precise moment. They want to enjoy the event(s) unfolding infront of the eyes, better!

4. The game is going to feature pilots that can get out of the ship and wander around, again third person could easily give advantages in those situations.

See answer to you no.2.

5. Many of the games design choices have been driven by DBs desire to not have the game feel like you are just a floating camera and you guys seem to want to add in a floating camera!

He's talked about drones...?

6. Game feels just fine as it is, you can see your ship while outfitting it, and the view works really well while flying.

I suspect there will be q a real demand to see things better at times. Indeed almost every screenshot released implies an external view is available.

In short people will want to see the game to its full glory.

7. A lot of contrived restrictions on when and where you can use an external view would also not fit in with the games style when it is using as much realism as is possible with a futuristic space game. Remote camera drones may well be possible but if you have them in game how do you explain why you can't use them in combat.

What contrived restriction? Read the OP. There are no restrictions on when you can/can't. In goes down the route of a drone just like you mention.

8. It's just a crappy idea that the majority don't want, you can assume the poll is wrong and that people answered it without reading the original post just because it doesn't agree with your view point if you like, but as it stands it indicates most people don't want third person.

How is it a crappy idea? If it can be offered at no expense to gameplay, and allow people to fully enjoy the visuals/experience in the game? How is that "crappy"?

How do you know the majority don't want it? Can I see your servey results?

I suspect when this game goes on sale to the general public, and they realise as certain times they cannot view the game to its best, using the exact types of view shown in example images from FD, they'll be somewhat agrieved.

 

[Elite Addict]

every professional flight simulator has an external view.
it'd be really 'low' if i couldn't watch my ship from the outside via freelook.
it's also good for doing some real cool screenshots.
i hope this is going to be a feature for singleplayer at least.
we had an outside view in frontier: elite 2

i'm playing some flight sims online and the outside view doesn't really give me an advantage. when it comes to dogfights i prefer cockpit view.
but it's just nice looking at your aircraft from the outside if it's quiet in the skies.

edit: just another reason i hate multiplayer. no atmosphere. just people being afraid they could have a disadvantage.

 

[ToadMan]

In this context I would define it as the moment one person fires upon another. That would suffice.

I don't want to sound deliberately obtuse or anything - I'm not trying to be argumentative for the sake of it, however, "one person fires on another"...

What does that mean? If I'm in an instance and anyone fires at another person should that remove everyone's 3rd person view in the instance - how long should 3rd person view be disabled for? What if I move from one instance to another? What if I fire my laser but miss? What if I hit someone I didn't intend to hit? etc etc

Your definition of combat is not programmatically enforceable because the computer cannot know the intent of the human(s) involved.

My other thought is that in many cases by the time a shot is fired a significant portion of the "combat" - the maneuvering into position - has already taken place. Someone using a 3rd person view during this initial maneuvering phase will have an advantage I would say. That means I've got to use 3rd person to neutralise that advantage....

Toad.

 

[Memnoch]

every professional flight simulator has an external view.
it'd be really 'low' if i couldn't watch my ship from the outside via freelook.

By the same logic it is really "low" that those other professional flight sims. you mention don't allow me to fly backwards at 300m/s. Or use hyper drive, or any number of other things because this isn't a flight simulator, it's a space sim.

 

[Elite Addict]

By the same logic it is really "low" that those other professional flight sims. you mention don't allow me to fly backwards at 300m/s. Or use hyper drive, or any number of other things because this isn't a flight simulator, it's a space sim.

ok, replace flight simulator with simulator.

 

[TerranAmbassador]

ok, replace flight simulator with simulator.

To be fair, "This other thing has feature X, so you should too" isn't a strong argument.

 

[Theodrid]

Can you suggest a gameplay scenario where you feel where (given the suggested behaviour and limitation) where an external view will give any sort of practical advantage?

If we consider the common argument that you can see around things, typically an asteroid, we seem to be in a fairly contrived unrealistic situation don't we? We're parked next to an asteroid (moving?) and keeping behind it, and using external view to gain a few tens of degrees of view angle advantage? While all the time, being vunerable to missing the obvious ships around us because we have no scanner? Surely the cons outweigh any possible advantage(s)?

And this is before even raising the optional limitation that your ship runs hot, making you stand out like a sore thumb while you're trying to hide?

Are there any other scenarios not involving an asteroid?

If you are close enough to be in scanner range of a ship you want to attack, lets say you are into your piracy, and the 'victim' doesn't know your intentions, then any FOV advantage, even a 10, 20 degrees is still a considerable advantage. And given that, a) you may be the only 2 ships in the system, and that b) I don't believe this is an 'unrealistic' scenario the advantage still exists. And if you look like you are minding your own business, mining, prospecting whatever then running 'hot' makes little to no difference. The same applies to large capital type ships, stations and other large structures.

Can you suggest such a scenario/issue? Given to flick in/out of external view is currently suggesting leaving you out of control of your ship for 8-10 seconds (during transition), and scanner less etc too.

As above largely.

What's unrealistic about the suggested behaviour (ignoring option limitations)?

ie: Your view goes (totally) to an external drone. The drone takes X seconds to deploy. The drone takes X second to doc. And if we go with "run hot" limitation, the drone means you stand out like a sore thumb due to data transmission, or it constantly letting off heat or something?

As a comparison, I find the idea if you blow up that you can instantly restart again alive seems the most unrealistic thing about this "game". So for people to get "elitist" about what's realistic or not about an optional external view (they don't even have to use) seems a little contrived IMHO. Especially when it can all be explained far more realistically than other aspects of the game. eg: God like immortality.

The portion of my post that mentions realism or lack of it was a direct reply to your opening post, where your counter is 'well, x, y and z are not realistic so 3rd person is no more/less of an evil. I will counter agian with what I said in my previous post, just because x, y or z is 'unrealistic and in game does not mean we should have a carte blanche for anything and everything imo.

EDIT - And on the combat discussion, first shot is not necessarily the 'start' of combat, a positional advantage can be huge, in an asteroid field, a planets rings whatever, if you have your 'shoot first' and 'escape' plans in place, and you gained that advantage using 3rd person view to some extent then an unfair advantage has been gained.

 

[Elite Addict]

To be fair, "This other thing has feature X, so you should too" isn't a strong argument.

for me it is a strong argument because i love watching my plane, ship, tank...
from the outside.

i'm allowed to have an opinion, right?

 

[TerranAmbassador]

for me it is a strong argument because i love watching my plane, ship, tank...
from the outside.

i'm allowed to have an opinion, right?

"I like this". Better. That an external view adds to your enjoyment of the game IS a strong argument. It's even one I'll strongly agree with.

But saying that ED needs an external view because game X has one is at best a bandwagon fallacy. The presence of an external view in other games has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not it appears in this one.

Whether the presence of an external view adds to a player's experience or takes away from it, however, does.

EDIT: minor spelling

 

[Adept]

Is this argument still going on? God, all they have to do is remove and targeting information from the 3rd person view and that would sort every issue that people have against it right?

No it wouldn't. Elite is a game about being a pilot. A 3rd person view is really distancing. Immediagely you're not in the ship, you're watching some little ship from the outside.

 

[Elite Addict]

"I like this". Better. That an external view adds to your enjoyment of the game IS a strong argument. It's even one I'll strongly agree with.

But saying that ED needs an external view because game X has one is at best a bandwagon fallacy. The presence of an external view in other games has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not it appears in this one.

Whether the presence of an external view add to a player's experience or takes away from it, however, does.

ok, let's keep it that way.

the only reason i post here is because i really really love the elite universe.
played the first one on the amiga 500.
to me elite isn't just a game. it's a piece of art and i want to enjoy it in every aspect. and that's an outside view for me, too.

so i just can't hold back here because this seems really important to me.

 

[popuptoaster]

How is it an advantage? Give an example please.

And if we're getting into those realms of "hacking", then an external view will be hacked in so let's give an official one

Three problems with this:-
1) You will NOT be able to EVA, until/unless they offer it. If they don't ever offer it, you'll never get.
2) I suspect an EVA will be a right faff? Will people want to spend a minute doing stuff to see the event unfolding outside their ship better? That fleet of Anacondas would have flown off by then!
3) If it instead offers a quick an easy means of getting an external view great! But then how will it not be used for the very advantages you are concerned about?

See "Purpose" in the OP. I suspect most people want to see what's happening to them better, at that precise moment. They want to enjoy the event(s) unfolding infront of the eyes, better!


See answer to you no.2.

He's talked about drones...?

I suspect there will be q a real demand to see things better at times. Indeed almost every screenshot released implies an external view is available.

In short people will want to see the game to its full glory.

What contrived restriction? Read the OP. There are no restrictions on when you can/can't. In goes down the route of a drone just like you mention.

How is it a crappy idea? If it can be offered at no expense to gameplay, and allow people to fully enjoy the visuals/experience in the game? How is that "crappy"?

How do you know the majority don't want it? Can I see your servey results?

I suspect when this game goes on sale to the general public, and they realise as certain times they cannot view the game to its best, using the exact types of view shown in example images from FD, they'll be somewhat agrieved.

, every single point you try to make here I answered already, asking the same questions over and over despite already having been given my answers is a waste of time.

It appears you are one of those irritating people who just keeps on and on and on until you get your way in real life because that way you go away and stop bothering whoever you are are talking at.

 

[Memnoch]

NeilF just wants to keep this thread going, and I am aware that I am helping this so am equally guilty, but if we just stop posting in this thread it will die off.

 

[CoSm1c gAm3r]

Can you explain why you are seemingly against a fairly traditional, simple external view (As suggested in the OP)?

LOL I just cant believe that. Jack Booted Thug already explained everything in his last 2 posts.
Reading his words I agree with him also he is putting almost everything what I wrote in this post but with less words. And you still want explanation.... Just amazing. All I see from your question is something like this "I will never agree with you but please write more so you will be tired of explaining all that logic and stuff and then only those who agree with me will still be here"

In short, I suspect many people asking for an external view do not want a typical "arcade" game play experience. ie: They do not want to fly around and fight in this view. They simply want it to periodically enjoy the view of the Elite Dangerous universe to a great degree.

That is the main problem that is unsolvable because people are to stubborn to understand what other group have against what they want.
Things that you mentioned are explained in many replies here and then over and over again I see comments that ignore those explains and try to cover it with their point of view on that matter. That is why this arguing will never end. Solution is simple.
If there is 2 games, game A and game B. that are similar but in some terms differ, Game A. allow 3rd person view and game B. is cockpit view only then buy game A if you like 3rd person view if you don't like how game B. is made don't buy it.

Imagine people who are against 3rd person view go to forums of games like freelancer and start to demand that this game must be in 1st person view.
That makes no sense. But as I see for people that want external views it somehow have sense. WEIRD!

If you look through the first/original post hopefully you'll see a summary of what a lot of people asking for an external view would like. And hopefully you'll see the suggested behaviour and limitations are clearly there to not give this view any sort of gameplay (combat) advantage (and quite possibly give it a gameplay/combat disadvantage). But it will allow players to enjoy particular moments in the game with a far better view point.

Sad that people who are against 3rd person view and any other view understand what you want but people who want external view completely don't understand why it cannot be in some types of games and then they try to force what they want on everyone else. That is sad and......... annoying after some time of reading and participating in that kind of discussion. I almost lost will to try and explain and argue in this topic. Good that I see here people who are good at discussing and share my point of understanding on what some games are and what they are not. Also my english sucks and I cannot express myself good enough.

Personally, I find having the option to use external views or fly-by cameras much more immersive than being locked into a cockpit view.

WOW you have no idea what immersion is. No wonder why most people here must argue with people that just want magical, god like, popping up view (cannot call it camera in anyway because of what cameras are and what view is)

I use these camera views all the time in other simulations (DCS, Silent hunter, Arma, total air war (many moons ago) ).

As I remember Silent Hunter have options to disable external views for greater immersion and realism (not sure how MP looks like but I bet if in SP is option to disable external views then in MP there are servers set to not allow this)
In ARMA there is option too to disable any 3rd person view in SP and some MP servers have disabled it (to bad that most servers allow 3rd person view that is why I am not playing this game in MP because for me this is total turnoff)

 

[Riedquat]

WOW you have no idea what immersion is. No wonder why most people here must argue with people that just want magical, god like, popping up view (cannot call it camera in anyway because of what cameras are and what view is)

WOW, yes I do, Ive been gaming for over 25 years, I think I know what immersion is.

 

[Riedquat]

As I remember Silent Hunter have options to disable external views for greater immersion and realism (not sure how MP looks like but I bet if in SP is option to disable external views then in MP there are servers set to not allow this)
In ARMA there is option too to disable any 3rd person view in SP and some MP servers have disabled it (to bad that most servers allow 3rd person view that is why I am not playing this game in MP because for me this is total turnoff)

Silent hunter does have that option, in its REALISM settings, doesnt mention immersion anywhere.

Same as Arma3.

Immersion and realism - two seperate things.