Would you people stop trying to impose your selective interpretation of immersion/RP/simulation onto others?

I'll need a source for your 75% of people who left because lack of coorperations and guilds.

And in return I'll remind you a lot of players don't want coorperations and guilds. Not because of irrational fear, but out of dislike of annoying pillocks.

And around that time moderators banned me about 3 times while being a vocal opponent, so you can drop the persecution complex :)

This!! +1, 100% agree

G
 
The vote is in, only 24% of players want the game to be an arcade gamey wasteland.
Or, "about half of the tiny fraction of Elite players who've a) bothered to create a forum account and b) have strong enough opinions to seek out and vote in a poll either want instant ship transfer or transfer with a slight delay, with the caveat that these are knee-jerk reactions and exactly nobody's actually used the feature to see how it does or doesn't change the playing experience."

You know. Po-tay-to, po-tah-to.
 
The vote is in, only 24% of players want the game to be an arcade gamey wasteland. So OP, the reality is that you're the one who is imposing your "selective sense of immersion" on everyone else.

The vote is invalid,i didn't vote and i'm pretty sure i'm not alone.
Reasoned discussion went out the window on that thread.
 
This has been discussed and Discussed and Discussed. ED has lost 75%+ of it's player base because FD refuses to get with the times concerning Social Issues. When ED launched there were tons of people everywhere, then as thread after thread popped up asking FD to give us Corporations, and Guilds, adn we found out FD has some irrational Fear of such (On the seriously psychotic mental level), and the Forum Moderators started chopping threads, banning People from posting, etc....

People left, and Left, And left, and Left. until you have a populations so small, Bubble witch queen on Facebook has more players. (Never heard of it? That's my point). Along with this, the updates to the game became farther, and farther apart, the interaction with the devs and mods became less and less as FD cut staff due to funding issues.

ED is a sinking Ship. It could have Thrashed EvE Online, and Given Star Citizen a run for it's money. But unless FD get their heads out of their Asses, it'll go down in history as nothing but a footnote, while EvE and Star Citizen go Head to head and overshadow everything else.

In today's Gaming Universe, Social interaction is key, if you want your game to succeed you have it, if you want your game to flop (as ED has) you don't.

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Maybe, but they didn't, Did they? They turned out exactly as we predicted, and told you all they would. The sad thing is, most of you all still have your heads in the sand going everything is fine, as ED sinks below the waters. Kind of like the people on the Titanic who stayed in the rooms going "Nothing Can sink this Great Ship!" As water poured into the compartments and the ship sank below the waves.

Source for losing that much of the player base? Because the game seems more packed with people than I've seen it in a long time. Though I do play in open, where, you know, you can run into people.
 
Or, "about half of the tiny fraction of Elite players who've a) bothered to create a forum account and b) have strong enough opinions to seek out and vote in a poll either want instant ship transfer or transfer with a slight delay

Ooookay, stop.

Either you want instant transfer, or you do not. Slight delay =/= instant.

Nobody needs to play and use the feature in order to anticipate the consequences or conceive of how the word "instant" breaks every bit of believability that has been so carefully constructed within Elite thus far.

The vote is invalid,i didn't vote and i'm pretty sure i'm not alone.
Reasoned discussion went out the window on that thread.

"I didn't vote and I didn't read, therefore the megathread with over 2500 voters and 7500 replies is invalid."

Bud, that's not how things work, sorry to burst your bubble. That's your issue and yours alone.
 
Ooookay, stop.

Either you want instant transfer, or you do not. Slight delay =/= instant.

Nobody needs to play and use the feature in order to anticipate the consequences or conceive of how the word "instant" breaks every bit of believability that has been so carefully constructed within Elite thus far.

Look this is not correct, there are loads of things that also follow in the realms of unbelievable, i.e. instant cargo, instant fuel, instant restock, instant weapon outfitting, instant module outfitting, I don't really see any of these getting targeted like the instant ship transfer, I think if FD had just said, "that your ship gets decommissioned at the shipyard where ever it is birthed and rebuilt in the new station where you are currently stationed" would have been probably more acceptable, but in the context of just some of the things I have pointed out, I have no problem with it, but it's not alone.
 
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I mean really, if all you want is instant pew-pew right now and want to tear down absolutely anything that could possibly get in the way of it, Star Conflict is probably a better pick to sate your desire for "War Thunder in space".
 
The vote is in, only 24% of players want the game to be an arcade gamey wasteland. So OP, the reality is that you're the one who is imposing your "selective sense of immersion" on everyone else.

Your interpretation has the astounding lack of facts not in evidence.

You ASSUME the critical mistakes of:
1. this poll was representative +/- reasonable degree (e.g. gallup poll) of the ED player population.
-people who visit game forums, much less those that actually post/reply are the large minority of any game population.

-you assume the most invested and active minority that we represent on this FD forum, which obviously includes me as I'm posting here too, is representative of the entire player base. We are clearly not, given forum population vs. overall ED base.

This alone invalidates any interpretation of '24% of players want..." assumption.

2. You can poll whether people would prefer cats or dogs as pets, and get only 24% of respondents to say cats - then leap to conclusion 76% of people support only dogs.

This would be both flawed polling and interpretation. It could very well be a large majority would get neither as pets - in fact don't want a pet at all, but if they had to pick one as a pet, they'd pick the dog.

A poll that doesn't ask how much someone cares about the selection they gave is meaningless. A more in depth poll would ask how much they prefer cats vs dogs, and would you even make either selection as make-or-break issue re: any kind of pet selection. It's entirely possible that a large portion of people who selected 'I prefer dogs' would be just fine with a cat if one strayed and stayed as a pet.

The polls here simply asked which mode of ship xfer we preferred, not how much we cared about the answer given. The 76% majority you are assuming as representative of the entire player base, could have large portions of that constituency that care a lot, or very little, re: their selection. We'll never know until a better poll is asked AND the poll includes more than just us - the hyper invested into the game, tiny minority compared to entire base of players.

3. Finally - the only people who impose their selective sense of immersion on anyone is FD. Good or bad, agree or disagree, that's the only fact that matters.

Otherwise, it would be equally bizarre, yet make sense in your logic world, to say YOU were the one imposing the equally selective sense of immersion re: instant eject and travel 1k+ light years pod, instant hull repair from 1% in 1 second, etc on everyone else --> were completely fine with being the overlords imposing this on rest of us --> yet went bonkers over application of exact same non-one-to-one correlation of in game time to real life for ship transfer.

So lets take your twisted logic here and sum up shall we?

You clearly don't understand polls nor polling methods, had no issue imposing your sense of immersion regarding all other game actions before, yet now flip the table and say it is the 24% respondents who are now imposing their immersion sense on you? To be clear, I don't think anyone is imposing on anyone other than FD. But we're using your logic right?
 
Your interpretation has the astounding lack of facts not in evidence.

You ASSUME the critical mistakes of:
1. this poll was representative +/- reasonable degree (e.g. gallup poll) of the ED player population.
-people who visit game forums, much less those that actually post/reply are the large minority of any game population.

-you assume the most invested and active minority that we represent on this FD forum, which obviously includes me as I'm posting here too, is representative of the entire player base. We are clearly not, given forum population vs. overall ED base.

This alone invalidates any interpretation of '24% of players want..." assumption.

2. You can poll whether people would prefer cats or dogs as pets, and get only 24% of respondents to say cats - then leap to conclusion 76% of people support only dogs.

This would be both flawed polling and interpretation. It could very well be a large majority would get neither as pets - in fact don't want a pet at all, but if they had to pick one as a pet, they'd pick the dog.

A poll that doesn't ask how much someone cares about the selection they gave is meaningless. A more in depth poll would ask how much they prefer cats vs dogs, and would you even make either selection as make-or-break issue re: any kind of pet selection. It's entirely possible that a large portion of people who selected 'I prefer dogs' would be just fine with a cat if one strayed and stayed as a pet.

The polls here simply asked which mode of ship xfer we preferred, not how much we cared about the answer given. The 76% majority you are assuming as representative of the entire player base, could have large portions of that constituency that care a lot, or very little, re: their selection. We'll never know until a better poll is asked AND the poll includes more than just us - the hyper invested into the game, tiny minority compared to entire base of players.

3. Finally - the only people who impose their selective sense of immersion on anyone is FD. Good or bad, agree or disagree, that's the only fact that matters.

Otherwise, it would be equally bizarre, yet make sense in your logic world, to say YOU were the one imposing the equally selective sense of immersion re: instant eject and travel 1k+ light years pod, instant hull repair from 1% in 1 second, etc on everyone else --> were completely fine with being the overlords imposing this on rest of us --> yet went bonkers over application of exact same non-one-to-one correlation of in game time to real life for ship transfer.

So lets take your twisted logic here and sum up shall we?

You clearly don't understand polls nor polling methods, had no issue imposing your sense of immersion regarding all other game actions before, yet now flip the table and say it is the 24% respondents who are now imposing their immersion sense on you? To be clear, I don't think anyone is imposing on anyone other than FD. But we're using your logic right?


If we're going to play the Silent Majority game though, then I'm going to have to invoke the first rule of the Silent Majority:

The Silent Majority is always on my side. ;)
 
This has been discussed and Discussed and Discussed. ED has lost 75%+ of it's player base because FD refuses to get with the times concerning Social Issues. When ED launched there were tons of people everywhere, then as thread after thread popped up asking FD to give us Corporations, and Guilds, adn we found out FD has some irrational Fear of such (On the seriously psychotic mental level), and the Forum Moderators started chopping threads, banning People from posting, etc....

People left, and Left, And left, and Left. until you have a populations so small, Bubble witch queen on Facebook has more players. (Never heard of it? That's my point). Along with this, the updates to the game became farther, and farther apart, the interaction with the devs and mods became less and less as FD cut staff due to funding issues.

ED is a sinking Ship. It could have Thrashed EvE Online, and Given Star Citizen a run for it's money. But unless FD get their heads out of their Asses, it'll go down in history as nothing but a footnote, while EvE and Star Citizen go Head to head and overshadow everything else.

In today's Gaming Universe, Social interaction is key, if you want your game to succeed you have it, if you want your game to flop (as ED has) you don't.

Not -entirely- true. A lot of games function quite well without Social Interaction. There is a qualifier to this. Those games are built without aspirations or pretensions of being some kind of connected experience where you can interact with other people. Games which try to pretend there's interactions but fall flat on their face are the ones which end up imploding quite badly, case in point is No Man's Sky, which had possibly maybe multiplayer interactions but like a lot of the game, turned out to be illusory.

Games which operate reliably as Single Player experiences such as 4X games (Stellaris) or exclusively (Deus Ex Mankind Divided) work quite well without needing a massive community around them, they're games which you play by yourself and enjoy by yourself. That's entirely fine as well, they're commercial successes and they work in that regard.

Elite Dangerous sits in the strange middle ground of not being quite a Singleplayer game (even though you'll often feel like it is), and not being a Multiplayer game (though if you play in open or in a big private group, it might feel like one). It has forced online connectivity supposedly for the BGS (which is debatable) and for the Galaxy Sim (which is frankly something that could be proc-genned). However, being in the strange middle ground means that it's stuck being betwixt the two pillars, and as a result it lacks the bespoke content that makes it feel fleshed out AS a single player game might (you get the occasional treasure hunt for thargoid ruins, but that's like, one bit of content that's got to last people *months*) and it lacks the facilities that make it as fleshed out as a multiplayer game would feel like (there's no persistence to your actions AT ALL, none, the BGS is all about flipping bits in a database, the only new stations are ones the devs manually author, ditto CG's, the engineers are a terrible implementation for crafting, powerplay is a terrible implementation of politics, the list goes on).

Why does it sit there? Because money. A single player game would be moddable, thus allowing players to create their own versions of their experience, and they could mod in their own paint jobs and the like, which means that Frontier couldn't constantly monetise a game they charged full price for on release (and then charged full price on Horizons for). Equally, a fully multiplayer game would be too expensive to maintain, even though it would provide the full scale of facilities that the game -needs- to fully blossom and become the experience Elite Dangerous deserves, if it's going to continue being an online game. Instead Frontier insists on being cheap, whilst at the same time trying to wring their playerbase out of money.

And then there's this forum. A place where people sit and will quite happily excuse Frontier for some of their most egregious design follies (Engineers in particular), yet they'll create 500 page threadnaughts over instant ship transport, because they have their own very specific idea of what Elite Dangerous should be, and regardless of whether that idea is commercially viable or not, whether that idea even makes SENSE or not, that's the vision they're going to promote and anyone who comes to these forums better fall in line or -else-.

Someone even had the gall to suggest holding Frontier to higher standards. Yeah, that ship sailed long ago. You want to do that, there's a lot of things you'd need to have a long, and meaningful conversation with Frontier about. The game needs a long look at what it's got, and then where it's going, before we hit season three.
 
We all want ship transfer.
Having to wait for your ship in real time is a ridiculous solution.
If i have to wait 20 minutes for my ship to arrive,what am i supposed to do? Read a book? Knock up a risotto? Turn the game off?
People should at least acknowledge this issue,rather than what seems to be a knee jerk reaction of "not in my back yard".
 
Look this is not correct, there are loads of things that also follow in the realms of unbelievable, i.e. instant cargo instant fuel, instant restock, instant weapon outfitting, instant module outfitting,
1. But "Instant cargo" has nothing to do with space travel. It's a sensible gameplay choice to not make the player sit and wait and watch the ship being loaded over time - what, praytell, would the player be doing in the meantime?
2. Same with "Instant fuel" - only if you refuel at stations. Fueling up using stars takes not-inconsiderable amounts of time and effort and preparation and knowledge.
3. Same story with "instant restock" as with cargo. There's no reason for it *not* to be instant, as it has no ties with other parts of the game, unlike ship transfer which has *everything* to do with the core experience of space travel.
4. Weapon outfitting actually does take a (albeit still very short) amount of time while the weapon stows away and is replaced by the new weapon. It's not much, fine, but it's got that *believable* touch to it, and that's what's important.
5. Same goes for module outfitting as with cargo and restock.

None of the things you mentioned have anything to do with space travel except for refueling, and that isn't instant if you don't do it at stations.

I think if FD had just said, "that your ship gets decommissioned at the shipyard where ever it is birthed and rebuilt in the new station where you are currently stationed"

Then that would be completely, reprehensibly unacceptable. Our ships are supposed to be "unique", not 3D-printed clones. That's what paint jobs, decals, loadout choices, engineering modifications, and in the future (one would assume) ship naming, are all about.

Your interpretation has the astounding lack of facts not in evidence.
You ASSUME the critical mistakes of:
1. this poll was representative +/- reasonable degree (e.g. gallup poll) of the ED player population.

Compared to most other major polls that pop up for Elite Dangerous? Yes, it most certainly IS representative of the ED player population.

-people who visit game forums, much less those that actually post/reply are the large minority of any game population.

And on what grounds can you possibly know that forum users aren't an accurate sample size of the whole population of Elite?

2. You can poll whether people would prefer cats or dogs as pets, and get only 24% of respondents to say cats - then leap to conclusion 76% of people support only dogs.

That's not what was being polled. People were not being asked if they liked ship A vs ship B. They were being asked if they wanted taking their pet for a walk to require a believable amount of time, with 3 different options for what amount of time, or if they wanted the pet to just appear at their side instantly at the snap of their fingers.

3. Finally - the only people who impose their selective sense of immersion on anyone is FD. Good or bad, agree or disagree, that's the only fact that matters.

Not really. Frontier happens to have shown, multiple times, they do listen, watch, and care what we think and feel about their game (unlike many other game developers I could mention and grumble about.), which is part of why I'm here on this forum while I'm playing this game instead of, well, pretty much anything else I could be doing with my time.

instant eject and travel 1k+ light years pod

Something Fdev have mentioned they want to try and change things about, so that it's not so exploitable.

instant hull repair from 1% in 1 second

See above about cargo/restock/etc. Station services have nothing at all to do with the act of moving something through space.

So lets take your twisted logic here and sum up shall we?
You clearly don't understand polls nor polling methods

The irony of this is just too good.
 
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We all want ship transfer.
Having to wait for your ship in real time is a ridiculous solution.
If i have to wait 20 minutes for my ship to arrive,what am i supposed to do? Read a book? Knock up a risotto? Turn the game off?
People should at least acknowledge this issue,rather than what seems to be a knee jerk reaction of "not in my back yard".



We all want ship transfer. NOT INSTANT SHIP TRAVEL

As for what to do .. Instant popcorn is fast !

Pointless even trying to stop the 'slow' progression of 'gimme now thinking', even the old backers of ED are leaving in their droves , depressed the direction the game is going.

ME ( not a backer ) I'm just grinding away , too escape into the black , in a kitted out Conda one day , so nothing will be instant out there , unless someday , someone instantly pops up on my screens , then I'll be gone too.
 
We all want ship transfer. NOT INSTANT SHIP TRAVEL

As for what to do .. Instant popcorn is fast !

Pointless even trying to stop the 'slow' progression of 'gimme now thinking', even the old backers of ED are leaving in their droves , depressed the direction the game is going.

ME ( not a backer ) I'm just grinding away , too escape into the black , in a kitted out Conda one day , so nothing will be instant out there , unless someday , someone instantly pops up on my screens , then I'll be gone too.


So what is the player supposed to do in this game whilst waiting fo their ship to turn up?
This is what you want in a game,what would you do?
 
So what is the player supposed to do in this game whilst waiting fo their ship to turn up?
This is what you want in a game,what would you do?

The same thing the player always did before, only knowing that his ship will arrive in 20 minutes (random number). Isn't that MUCH better than the current situation already?

  • Guilds are not in the spirit of Elite. (Because humans never form any groups of course, certainly not in the 4th millenium...?)
  • Global chat would destroy immersion. (Because all the credit sellers in a game without convenient credit or item transfer would ruin it and talking to people is totally overrated in an MMO...?)
  • CQC is not part of Elite's world. (Because it's not Frontier having the last say on what is canon and not in Elite's universe, business-motivated or not, but us and CQC is a separate CoD kiddy shooter with no relation to Elite...?)
  • Instant ship transfer is not consistent with the game's world. (Because a version of transfer with artificial delay, destroying the "quality" part of that QoL feature is more easy on your selective immersion, while instant pilot transfer and ship rebuy upon ship destruction is totally ok...?)
  • ...



Really?


Even as a non-guild and very casual player, I would love guilds to be formally represented in Elite's game world. Guild logos on ships and people visibly acting and being represented as guilds? Cool in my book. Would add to the believability of an MMO like world, such as no realistically possible AI behaviour and BG sim in this game ever will for me. In the same vein, I would absolutely love global and inter-system (meaning inter-instance!) chat. This is sold as an MMO-like game, so let me communicate with people properly! If I don't want to, I'm playing Solo anyway. I also really don't mind Frontier trying to push CQC (successfully or not) and adding it to the pilot's federation ranks. Instant ship transfer to the station you're currently docked in for an appropriate sum of credits (based on ship value and distance)? Don't know when Frontier learned about non-lifetime-wasting-game-design, but I'll take it. Gladly! And more of that as well, wherever I can get it. We can produce fighters in our ships? Hey Frontier, I'd love if you to apply a bit of that convenience design to bloody heat sinks, limpets and SRVs!

Going by the length of the concerned threads, among all the opposition there might be one, possibly two other people with a similar attitude as I have to those additions. I'm not that alone in my basement, am I? :p The thing that really gets me and that all the people arguing the cases listed at the beginning seem to have in common: They're trying to argue against/prevent certain additions or changes to be made to the game for other people. I don't care which mental gymnastics are employed to argue the individual cases, but at the center of the argument is always a train of thought similar to:


"I don't like it, so please don't add it to the game".


And yes, in it's essence "That's not immersive" is the very same argument, due to the implied "to me" at the end and immersion being associated with "good", but also being highly subjective and very, very selective. Here's the thing: You already got what you wanted. After all, it's not in the game currently. Did it ever occur to you, that there are other people out there (paying customers as well), who bloody well would love any of those features or would simply not mind their addition at all? Why should they not have it, while you on the other hand have to get what you want? Especially if it's about functional additions, e.g. instant ship transfer for ingame credits. Why should they have to play your vision of the Elite universe and Elite's game design, which lacks all of those features or makes them artificially inconvenient, because your feeling of immersion or personal RP/space game simulation fantasy can't cope otherwise?



Here's a suggestion (it's very intentionally polemic):



If feature X is not compatible with your immersion and vision of Elite? More power to you! Open a Group, named "Anti-X", invite everybody who doesn't like X in their Elite and ask them to not use X. Instant ship transfer? Not on your fantasy space sim RP watch! Mandate all the members of your group to not use it and kick anyone if you ever catch them at doing it anyway! Same for hypothetical global chat, guilds, station control, base building, [insert possilby new feature here] if any of it is to ever implemented.



In all seriousness, that seems like more democratic solution, doesn't it? Let Open be what the word implies: "open" and inclusive, while any exclusions to the game world's rules and imposed RP requirements are limited to groups whose members voluntarily commit to them. Let the discussion of new proposed or announced features be concerned more with what's potentially a good and realistic implementation of that feature, actually servicing the needs of players who want those features, rather than be polluted with how much angst you have, that the feature might destroy your immersive fantasy space game simulation RP.


And just so forming such groups is effective and because I perceived the suggestion to fence player guilds in into their own mode as such a particular unconstructive low point in these discussions (although the poster probably tried to be constructive, still it reeks of "naughty, naughty humans, don't want to see you forming group in MY game!" *rollseyes*), here's a constructive suggestion for Frontier:

Add a feature to toggle and configure the "Group" mode, to both in- and exclude certain features where realistic and applyable. Ship-transfers? Toggle-able! Fighter construction in ships? Toggle-able! Hypothetical guild names and decals on stations/ships? Toggle-able! Hypothetcial global/system chats? Toggle-able! CQC pilot rank? Toggle-able! Players damaging player ships? Toggle-able! This is what sub-groups are normally perfect for.

Open?!

Open for all!

I'm more of the roleplay type, but I still like CQC. However, there's no denying it's a fail and not part of the main game- it would have been much more successful if it was implemented as special locations you could go to and enroll. They chose to make a disconnected minigame out of it, with no impact on your character whatsoever - no reputation, no influence, no nothing.

CQC is a fail. I sincerely hope it served well as a demo for people who wouldn't want to pay the basegame - and were brought to it anyway by the good sim feeling. I hope so because as it stands now I can't get a deathmatch 3 times out of 4. ED's audience was the wrong target really. Fail in dev time, fail in implementation.

I'm quite happy they're putting the arena's assets in the main game - it will not have been a total loss this way. If they could just make these areas landable and let us access arena there...
 
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The same thing the player always did before, only knowing that his ship will arrive in 20 minutes (random number). Isn't that MUCH better than the current situation already?

Not really.
Currently i have to fly to my ship,interdiction,side missions,alien encounters.
All gameplay.
Asking the player wait for a pre determined length of time to pass before they can continue playing is madness.
 
Not really.
Currently i have to fly to my ship,interdiction,side missions,alien encounters.
All gameplay.
Asking the player wait for a pre determined length of time to pass before they can continue playing is madness.

assuming you're never left without a ship, you wouldn't have to wait inside the station you want your ship delivered. You could take your current ship/taxi, and do what you can do with it in the neighbouring area. I don't know what else to say really, unless you can only imagine yourself playing with just one specific ship you can't travel with...

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The vote is invalid,i didn't vote and i'm pretty sure i'm not alone.
Reasoned discussion went out the window on that thread.
That's called representative sample. No vote/poll on earth is made with every voice.
 
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