The Star Citizen Thread v5

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Mr Nowak, if the lack of Squadron 42 footage is because CIG want to "avoid spoilers", yet at the same time the game is just about to come out, then in that case Infinity Ward and Activision should be withholding all gameplay footage and demos of Call Of Duty: Infinite Warfare until about a fortnight before the games' release, not showing footage of playable content of the game for the last 3 or 4 months.

Or am I just another one of those who don't "understand" CIG software development?
 
I think this thread became like a special place for people disappointed by SC to gather with a lot having different reasons why to be disappointed. I might be wrong but I also get the feeling that the people who are disappointed are mainly so due to not getting what they wanted from the game. What I see on the more supportive crowd on the SC part is that they don't mind that the CIG devs are releasing late or not having some features they would want now being implemented later since they do not look at SC as a usual video game. They look at it as a unique project that will not take 5 years release and end. They are looking at this as a 10+ year game that they will invest most of their time in to and that is step by step adding features as they go.
The problem, as I said a few pages back, is that you're treating the backers as one group uniformly in favour of what CIG are doing. The scope has ballooned massively; some backers think this is a good thing since the game will be more complete as a result, others are questioning whether this is a good idea. For some people that's because they are worried about Chris Roberts and his history, for others it's about whether CryEngine (even modified) can actually support this increased vision.

Importantly, though: all of these people have paid CIG money. This is why people keep getting refunds, because the project seems to be a runaway train with ever-increasing scope that has to somehow actually come back down to earth at some point, without showing any meaningful signs of doing so. Some people like that and are willing to be along for the ride, some are not.

On the point of Star Citizen missing dates. This is what they are more criticized for and yes it is partially because of Chris Roberts, the funding of the project and most of all the technological challenges of such a project. However you look at SC it is a huge challenge to accomplish. No engine supports what SC wants to do. No engine is the best fit for SC not even a new one since setting that up takes at least 2-4 years. So either way SC has to overcome much heavy tech development which is what the past two years of recruitment were focused on.
My question would be: do you think they're finished with (the majority of) that tech development? I don't think they are. I think there are plenty more challenges ahead that they haven't even started thinking about how to deal with yet. Meanwhile we have promises of all sorts of exciting gameplay and mo-capped pets - the To Do List is turning into a novel whilst the amount of things being checked off it appears to be going (relatively) at a snail's pace, and the things being checked off are things that many people familiar with game development are saying shouldn't have been near the top of the list in the first place.

They also have bad habits. Like announcing internal hopeful release dates. I think most of you know how it goes in software or game development. Internally it looks like you will get a build out in the next 3 months. When that time comes especially depending on the complexity of what you are working on things can change and will change it will take 5 or even 6 at times depending on scale these can go up to be 1-5 years too. Star Citizen only makes this topic worse. But that ties in to the interesting part of the community. They don't care as long as CIG get's it right eventually.
Agreed, release dates are hard, and for the most part I give them a pass. However, I think Star Marine is one example where they did get it unbelievably wrong. You cannot honestly believe you're two weeks away from release, and then suddenly discover crippling integration issues that cost you a year. That's scary levels of internal miscommunication.

I think SC has a herculian task under their hands. They are simultaneously working on literally 3 different games. Star Marine, 3.0 which has the biggest tech and gameplay changes in Star Citizen ever period and also a huge Singleplayer campaign at the same time. While many here say that this game won't be out until 2025 I think it's because they are not keeping up on the development and they are always setting up release expectations. When you follow the SC development closely they talk and show about what is coming online and then it comes out. It's not like that from the outside though. You don't have much info for months and months and then you hear or see a delay. OR when a portion of the game releases you do not have the information and the development update knowledge that people follow the project do.
The problem isn't that they aren't showing anything, it's that what they are showing is mostly fluff that looks cool. Not any specifics on how gameplay is actually going to work, or activities you're likely to be able to do. (Edit: the Gamescom demo is a decent counterexample, if it's representative of what will actually happen in the game.)
What they could be doing is sharing all the design specifics on how they plan these things to work - open development, remember! Throw the Crime and Punishment plan out to the backers, let them talk about it, see what they think and iterate from that. Things like mining, exploration, all of that. All the current information about this stuff is either ancient or CR translating the magical vision in his head into speech in realtime. (I would be very happy to be wrong and to find out there's detailed info about these things, but I haven't seen any!)

It's quiet the complex topic running for the past 5 years now but I think many people predicted that SC won't be here in the past years. That they won't have their mini pu or the planetside. Many still claim that it is a failed project. But I think CIG and SC will be here for many many years to come. With what they have shown and the amount of real passion which I personally can vouch for since I met a couple of them are real and are the main drivers of the project. With each year Star Citizen is looking more likely to advance to be better (less buggy and more content) and increase it's player base.
I absolutely believe that the people "on the ground" at CIG are passionate and want to make a great game. I just still remain to be convinced that mismanagement hasn't already cost them the best chance of doing so. I'd dearly like to be wrong - I have two ships and would love to fly them around a completed 'verse - but to me it still looks like they have far too much to do and nowhere near enough time to do it.

For what it's worth, though, I'm very glad you're back and posting, glad to see you back. :)
 
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Mr Nowak, that's a large wall of text, but i completely agree with you on everything.
Some people seem to think SC is like a Call of Duty game, something you can develop in a year or two... Of course those people are going to be disappointed.
Some also don't seem to understand that we are not playing any kind of MVP, the updates we are getting are for testing and finding bugs. People complain that the alphas are buggy... well, that's the exact purpose of the alphas.
3.0 will allow us to test a lot of new mechanics. Remember guys that it is for testing for finding bugs, it's not a MVP. Complaining about "lack of content" or about it being "buggy" makes no sense.

CR is to blame partly, since CR gives unrealistic release dates, AAA game dev time can be up 10 years:

http://i.imgur.com/vdOpS8r.jpg

so if SC started at 2012 actual release date could be 2022 ;)

till that we will have lot of Alfas and Betas divided in small modules...

About COD they just reuse old assets thats why they can release "new" title so fast..
 
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Mr Nowak, if the lack of Squadron 42 footage is because CIG want to "avoid spoilers", yet at the same time the game is just about to come out, then in that case Infinity Ward and Activision should be withholding all gameplay footage and demos of Call Of Duty: Infinite Warfare until about a fortnight before the games' release, not showing footage of playable content of the game for the last 3 or 4 months.

Or am I just another one of those who don't "understand" CIG software development?

Actually, this very long text wall only shows that CIG can't project manage the project, and that it failed on so many fronts it's just mind boggling.

You don't need to be a genius to see that, however some of the faithful want to believe and facts are turned into magic formulas to convolute the reality.
 
Ok so then let me understand it. Then, the problem is that the features are not implemented instantly, right? Your complaint is that development takes time and it should be instantaneous, am i right?

Confusing Instant with 'five years' would Have been even funnier in the ship transfer topic!
 
I want to see this, anyone have a link?
It's part of their mocap “behind the scenes” footage — not very precise, I know, but I just can't make myself wade through that misery any more. It wasn't Serkis, though, if I remember correctly. It was one of the lesser known vandals.

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Mr Nowak, if the lack of Squadron 42 footage is because CIG want to "avoid spoilers", yet at the same time the game is just about to come out, then in that case Infinity Ward and Activision should be withholding all gameplay footage and demos of Call Of Duty: Infinite Warfare until about a fortnight before the games' release, not showing footage of playable content of the game for the last 3 or 4 months.

Or am I just another one of those who don't "understand" CIG software development?
To be fair, there's a pretty huge gap between actual software development and CIG software development. Knowledge of one does not readily translate into knowledge of the other.
 
I am trying to set up a new Lave Radio episode where we talk about Star Citizen. Have to thank Allen Stroud for helping out. We can take some topics discussed here to the radio show. Will let you guys know when we get a green light.

Hey, good to see you back around here again. However long that is...
 
CR is to blame partly, since CR gives unrealistic release dates, AAA game dev time can be up 10 years:

http://i.imgur.com/vdOpS8r.jpg
I so dearly love that chart. Not only is it not up to date, but almost every single line contains at least one error. :D
But it also very clearly demonstrate that development time is one of gaming's greatest enemies — the longer the higher the odds that the end the result will be terrible.
 
Actually, this very long text wall only shows that CIG can't project manage the project, and that it failed on so many fronts it's just mind boggling.

You don't need to be a genius to see that, however some of the faithful want to believe and facts are turned into magic formulas to convolute the reality.

I don't think it has failed. In fact, this is the first time ever we have so much amount of info about the game development. We got videos showing off development, we got to preview a lot of WIP stuff, we can test content since so early stages. Of course, people can mistakenly think that is a fail to deliver a final product, but they dont seem to understand it is not a final product. They are allowing us to test all this WIP stuff and have access to all this information because it was a stretch goal. So they are indeed delivering what they promised. And that is a success, not a fail.

About the so called feature creep, they stopped adding new features to the plan a long time ago. Those who try to imply that CR is constantly changing the scope of the game are plain wrong. Of course, he can take note of ideas for future expansions of the games content, but nothing of that is going to be developed until after the game is done. I think CIG has a clear goal, with a specific scope. Of course, the scope of the game is bigger than we have ever seen in a game, and that's why some people can claim "it can't be done". But it can be done. Yes, development will take longer than the average game, but that's the proper way of doing it. Rushing the game is the worst they could do.
 
About the so called feature creep, they stopped adding new features to the plan a long time ago. Those who try to imply that CR is constantly changing the scope of the game are plain wrong.
…well, aside from his constantly mentioning new things that will apparently be in the game, and without ever mentioning anything about future expansions. If he ever had a clear goal or specific scope, then he does his damnedest not to communicate either of them and instead to suggest the exact opposite.
 
Tie Fighter ? LOL. I hate Star Wars. But more than that I hate pure Battle stuff.
giphy.gif
 
[video=youtube;FanEYdkFQXA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FanEYdkFQXA[/video]
there's the clip, it's not quite what he said but it's still a funny watch

there's quite a few clips of the van'dull in motion, earning their place in the world of original sci-fi aliens by looking rather like people in costumes despite all the CGI
 
…well, aside from his constantly mentioning new things that will apparently be in the game, and without ever mentioning anything about future expansions. If he ever had a clear goal or specific scope, then he does his damnedest not to communicate either of them and instead to suggest the exact opposite.

Of course, that's what it can look like for the uninformed, but if you take a look at all the interviews, the ATV episodes, and the 10 for the chairman videos, you'll see that the games scope is very clear.
 
Of course, that's what it can look like for the uninformed, but if you take a look at all the interviews, the ATV episodes, and the 10 for the chairman videos, you'll see that the games scope is very clear.
Yeah, no. You're talking about several hundred videos, many of which are no longer even available. If all of those are required to clarify your scope, then it means the scope is not clear at all. Doubly so when you consider that those are the sources for all the strange new additions that keep popping up out of nowhere.
 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FanEYdkFQXA
there's the clip, it's not quite what he said but it's still a funny watch

there's quite a few clips of the van'dull in motion, earning their place in the world of original sci-fi aliens by looking rather like people in costumes despite all the CGI

I can't quite see what video that is (connection here too poor for video) but there are a couple of Mocap ones - if I am confused which Vandal is told by CR to turn their key / axe thing in a more "determined" way then my apologies. It's been a while since I saw them.
 
Of course, that's what it can look like for the uninformed, but if you take a look at all the interviews, the ATV episodes, and the 10 for the chairman videos, you'll see that the games scope is very clear.

If that's the case, could you point us to the clear list of things that are going to be in the game at launch (whether the "MVP" or full-fledged release)? Given the size of the community around SC, surely someone must have made something like this if the information's available?
 
Yeah, no. That means it's not clear at all. Doubly so when you consider that those are the sources for all the strange new additions that keep popping up out of nowhere.

Strange new additions? i don't recall them "adding" anything besides what there is already stated in the stretch goals. You have probably misunderstood something.
 
I've been in the hot sun all weekend enjoying 4 stages of music, food, booze and others.

So, naturally, I missed the media dump from the end of last week. Scanning through here I didn't see Rolan post a recap. (could have just missed it, my eyes are still a bit blurry)

Anything of note out of the big show?
 
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