The Star Citizen Thread v5

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All that vision, he sounds quite a lot like Chris Roberts..... the major difference being, David Braben seems to have some kind of handle on reality and what can and can't be delivered within a certain time frame and budget.

Looks like all the SC backers gave their money to the wrong person. Imagine what DB could have done with 120 million bucks.....

Buy an Idr... no that's just mean.
 
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Presumably because they'd want to reach as many customers as possible and because Steam is unparalleled in that regard?

Croberts is, like, totally, you know *hand waving* making a new Digital delivery platform. Buy it.
It's like, uhmm, better than Steam- with 3D graphics and no instance- everything you can see can be bought.
 
But CR always said they were aiming for "about 100" or "50 - 100" so presumably they just have to switch that on with the launch of 3.0 miracle patch - no?

Actually, I am pretty sure he made said a few weeks ago that 'hundreds or thousands' of people would be in one instance, due to 'the cloud'. Some guys here can prolly give the link. Its pretty hilarious, really.
 
Do games have roadmaps if you don't know they exist?
(or refuse to read them when they're pointed out to you)
 
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dsmart

Banned
No, it's just a complete failed analysis because it was based on wishful thinking (and planted rumours by goons that trolled you and keep doing so) instead of facts.
Not by incompetence or stupidity, but with the calculated scheme of trying to spread FUD into a game project at all costs.

Nope, wrong. All of it. You need to try harder than that. For one thing, you speculate (<---- see how that works?) that my info comes from Goons; while ignoring the fact that you have NO evidence of that in any way, shape or form. Notwithstanding the fact that you don't get to define what an analysis is. You either understand what it is, and accept it, or you don't. At the end of the day, nobody cares what you guys think, when, regardless of facts and/or minutia, we're watching an on-going train-wreck unfold. Nothing is going to change that. The project is ; and all backers have done is made a handful of people rich, while giving around 500 people a paycheck for going on five years.

In the reverse, YOU guys care what we Goons think; which is why you have this dying need to follow us everywhere in order to defend your financial life choices. We're just having a laugh. You guys are having a collective aneurysm over a video game.
 
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Actually, I am pretty sure he made said a few weeks ago that 'hundreds or thousands' of people would be in one instance, due to 'the cloud'. Some guys here can prolly give the link. Its pretty hilarious, really.

Yes I remember that but I thought I'd start with the lower numbers first.

One must never underestimate the awesome power of the cloud thingy.
 
An essay on how previously squashed bugs become unsquashed.

We start with basic software version control. As software engineers, we like to be able to keep track of the work that we've done. We like to be able to see what changed between versions of code, and sometimes we prefer to make changes away from the main development because they might be lengthy or experimental and prone to breaking, and it's somewhat unfair if everyone is making changes and constantly breaking the build for everyone else. So we have the concept of branch-and-merge. Depending on your version control software, the ease of use and level of automation will vary.

The terminology for branching comes from that of a tree. The main thrust of development is on what's known as the trunk. If you want to get the latest and greatest you'll be picking up the HEAD revision, which is generally on the trunk (but not always) and generally expected to build (but not always). If you want to make a change away from the trunk -- which is what will often happen with bugfixes -- you take what's effectively a snapshot of the code and 'branch' it off. The work you're doing is now only visible on that branch. Branches can still be shared between developers, so if you're implementing a feature that requires modifications to code, scripts, assets, etc. all stakeholders can do their work on that branch. Branches can be branched. When you're done making your changes, you've tested your branch (hah!) you 'merge' it back into its parent branch (which could be the trunk). This process is hard to automate because while you were making your change, the parent branch has probably moved on. If someone else has done work on code (etc.) that you've touched, your version control software will metaphorically throw its hands up and say "I don't know how to resolve this, because both of you have changed the same thing". This requires manual intervention, so the developer will have to attempt to sew the two sets of changes together by hand. Ugh.

So, software is this big complex thing that lots of teams are working on and trampling all over. But it gets more complex. When, say, Frontier released version 2.1 of Horizons, they will have taken a snapshot of that release and called it a 'release branch'. The main software thrust continues but there's a chance that someone will spot a bug that needs to be fixed in the released version of code. But not only that, the fix will need to be introduced into the mainline code also. So the developer needs to decide first whether to make the change on the release branch and merge that fix into mainline, or to do the work on mainline and merge into the release branch. They'll probably pick the former as mainline might have moved on a lot. In some cases the bugfix may not even apply to mainline due to refactoring (reimplementing something to make it better or cleaner) or the bug may have moved around.

There are many things that can now go wrong, because there's a human involved. They might forget to merge the bugfix that's present on the release branch into the mainline trunk. So when the next release comes, voila! the bug is back. They might merge the fix, but in the meantime someone has copied and pasted the offending code elsewhere, and voila! the bug is back (albeit maybe slightly differently). They might do the fix correctly in both places, but someone else might merge their branch (which still contains the bug) back, encounter a conflict and their manual merge might trample all over the bugfix and voila! the bug is back.

The way to catch this happening (because you can't stop it) is to implement a good set of regression tests for bugs. Write a test (preferably automated) that fails if the bug is still present. Unfortunately this is hard, requires a very structured approach to software development -- difficult when you're deadline driven -- and still doesn't cover every contingency, such as the case where a copy-paste proliferates the bug. [Obviously in this case, the developer doing the copy-paste probably ought to have factored that code into a function and so the bug fix would have applied everywhere, but again when working to deadlines sometimes the instinct to do it quickly can override the instinct to do it right.]


All I can say is that bugs happen. They can be esoteric, hard to track down (or really obvious once you've found them) and especially so in software as complex as this. I'm happy to criticise the SC project for its failures, but I *will* sympathise with their developers who are doing a hard job and where their mistakes are seen and mocked by the world.
 
Looks like all the SC backers gave their money to the wrong person. Imagine what DB could have done with 120 million bucks.....

Actually, I doubt it. Game development has strong diminishing returns on increased budgets. Just having 10x more money doesnt increase development speed 10x, initially it will probably even decrease it as all new staff has to be guided into the project. If we all started buying bobbleheads FD couldnt do two seasons in one year all of a sudden, unfortunately: Putting an additional ten people on one paintjob wont make that paintjob appear faster, it will probably never get done at all. At best it allows you to have additional teams working in parallel on different objectives, but that makes integrating everything together an interesting challenge again. Its part of the SC problem: the more people talk about the 120 million, the more pressure there is to do things with that money that realistically cannot be done. Its why GTA5 has WAY smaller ambitions with a larger budget and an experienced team that has worked together for years on similar projects with similar goals.
 
Yes I remember that but I thought I'd start with the lower numbers first.

One must never underestimate the awesome power of the cloud thingy.

Yeah CR said that... but noone really understood what he meant exactly as usual.
There was lots of hand-waving and mind-bending on the SC subreddit with people trying to understand the Lord's tongue.
 
Nope, wrong. All of it. You need to try harder than that. For one thing, you speculate (<---- see how that works?) that my info comes from Goons; while ignoring the fact that you have NO evidence of that in any way, shape or form. Notwithstanding the fact that you don't get to define what an analysis is. You either understand what it is, and accept it, or you don't. At the end of the day, nobody cares what you guys think, when, regardless of facts and/or minutia, we're watching an on-going train-wreck unfold. Nothing is going to change that. The project is ; and all backers have done is made a handful of people rich, while giving around 500 people a paycheck for going on five years.

In the reverse, YOU guys care what we Goons think; which is why you have this dying need to follow us everywhere in order to defend your financial life choices. We're just having a laugh. You guys are having a collective aneurysm over a video game.

The sad thing about all of this, after the NMS trainwreck people happily jumped on the SC train in full motion after that gamescom mediastunt. Gamers dont learn at all. The worst thing they throw money at everything that excites them and dont care how many times they get burned by it.
 
All I can say is that bugs happen. They can be esoteric, hard to track down (or really obvious once you've found them) and especially so in software as complex as this. I'm happy to criticise the SC project for its failures, but I *will* sympathise with their developers who are doing a hard job and where their mistakes are seen and mocked by the world.
Well said, when I laugh at major tom's videos I always feel there should be a little asterisk afterwards with an explanatory note to say I understand the conditions they're working under

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

If we all started buying bobbleheads FD couldnt do two seasons in one year all of a sudden, unfortunately.
Obviously not - fuzzy dice are the answer as I've been trying to get across for some time now. Fuzzy dice, all problems solved.

</tangent>
 
Actually, I doubt it. Game development has strong diminishing returns on increased budgets. Just having 10x more money doesnt increase development speed 10x, initially it will probably even decrease it as all new staff has to be guided into the project. If we all started buying bobbleheads FD couldnt do two seasons in one year all of a sudden, unfortunately: Putting an additional ten people on one paintjob wont make that paintjob appear faster, it will probably never get done at all. At best it allows you to have additional teams working in parallel on different objectives, but that makes integrating everything together an interesting challenge again. Its part of the SC problem: the more people talk about the 120 million, the more pressure there is to do things with that money that realistically cannot be done. Its why GTA5 has WAY smaller ambitions with a larger budget and an experienced team that has worked together for years on similar projects with similar goals.

I doubt much would have changed. Even with that much money, the only difference is they would have been financial more secure about it.
From the kickstarter alone FD knew what they wanted to do and it would take alot of time to do it. They said from the beginning they would sell certain bigtime features as expansion ect.
People can complain about how "empty" it feels or grindy...but the groundwork is really solid in most parts.
 
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The sad thing about all of this, after the NMS trainwreck people happily jumped on the SC train in full motion after that gamescom mediastunt. Gamers dont learn at all. The worst thing they throw money at everything that excites them and dont care how many times they get burned by it.

More annoyingly, media keep hyping things. While gamers tend to be naive and ignorant, media NEED hype to get more clicks. :(
 
https://www.elitedangerous.com/en/seasons/#season2
Alone for horizon we have a general roadmap with headline big updates. Thats all we get until its close for release then they hand out more information what a specific update will entail outside of the headline feature.

Edit:Addition
I remember at the start of this year having a list from FD about what future updates for horizon would bring. Together with a rough estimate for it to be released.

Yes they do. You just didn't look into them. It's the same reason as why you've been wrong on pretty much every detail of ED you've tried to comment on or criticise. Don't worry, I don't take offence to your refusal to do research and decision to never have a solid grasp of the facts. You should, though, and then you should try to fix that problem.


They really aren't, and they pretty much always do — that's kind of the point of having a roadmap. One would suspect that this is also the reason why CIG can't produce one: because they have no idea what will be done when or even in what order.


That was never the question. It's still just a list of stretch goals — one without any detail whatsoever — not a roadmap, schedule, or deliverables plan.

Guys no offense. But thats not a Roadmap.
Its 3 very rough described Features with the line *Soon* written above.

If you call that a Roadmap SC stretch goal list is 10 times as good lol.

All that vision, he sounds quite a lot like Chris Roberts..... the major difference being, David Braben seems to have some kind of handle on reality and what can and can't be delivered within a certain time frame and budget.

Looks like all the SC backers gave their money to the wrong person. Imagine what DB could have done with 120 million bucks.....

Buy an Idr... no that's just mean.

I love that obvious double standard......
 
More annoyingly, media keep hyping things. While gamers tend to be naive and ignorant, media NEED hype to get more clicks. :(

Oh yes, i remember the hype from the press when we got near the NMS release it didnt took a week to soften their tone about NMS to the point where they avoided it entirely. Now they try to stillhave some creditability left by saying how awesome the modding is ect. Great but doesnt change the fact that the media has a big responsibility on that trainwreck too.
 
I never said space legs actually.
This very post here is the first time i utter this word.

And yes. Its being talked about now.
But it was sure as hell not planned.

And even this kickstarter phrase only mentions the possibility of considering such options. Its not like they planned to do it.

Yes, I guess I am lying to fulfill a personal agenda of hatred against Star Citizen or something right? :\ You have a really poor memory dude:

2.
Space Legs are Planned. But FD themselves said it was not Originally Planned.
I could be mean here and say. It was stolen from SC I guess *gg*
But I wont. Cause just like the stuff in SC. it was not Stolen. Its simply something the Community of Space Games has been Demanding for Years everywhere. So it was Adopted.

Yes they planned to do it. I'm going to quote it again, it's been quoted twice already, but you're clearly not taking it in.

Can I leave the space ship?
Yes, but not in the initial release. The core release of the game focusses on the ships and space. We'll then be working to expand the game. This includes exploring your ship and space stations. The potential content for Elite is huge,so we're keeping a sensible strategy to add to the game in stages.

Clearly you don't believe this means walking around, so take a look at this kickstarter video from Dec 14 2012. So you can hear in a video, straight from David Braben's mouth, the actual words YOU WILL BE ABLE TO WALK AROUND

Go to 2:58.



[video=youtube;EM0Gcl7iUM8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM0Gcl7iUM8[/video]



You need to fact check. It seems to be a big problem with many of the posters who come and laud over Star Citizen in this thread. I want facts and I want to discuss facts, not random suppositions that turn out to be complete lies.
 
Guys no offense. But thats not a Roadmap.
Its 3 very rough described Features with the line *Soon* written above.

If you call that a Roadmap SC stretch goal list is 10 times as good lol.



I love that obvious double standard......

You know? The main difference is Frontier has been delivering MORE than they originally promised. Somewhere along the road (over two years of deliveries) they accumulated some delays.
Clocking in at 2 months. Give or take.

That makes whatever they are promising quite likely to happen. As in- not really missed a deadline so far.
Where I come from that's a good record.
 
Guys no offense. But thats not a Roadmap.
Its 3 very rough described Features with the line *Soon* written above.

If you call that a Roadmap SC stretch goal list is 10 times as good lol.



I love that obvious double standard......

Just to quote you again
Mate no Offense.
But none of that stuff you Googled there contains such a list.
Except of course you consider
The text line *Season 2 Horizons* a list :)


And I got a ton of Games :)
But Roadmaps are fairly rare. And heck pretty much never contain ETA or accurate infos.

In that regard SCs stretch goal list is one of the most detailed future feature list i know.


Cant watch videos on cellphone. Will check it when i come home.

Say what again? A rough feature a rough estimate date for coiming horizon updates. You are right SC "feature list" is hardly a roadmap.
 
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