The Star Citizen Thread V2.0

[Helfix]

It doesn't work, and has the exact opposite effect to what I would have wanted. Narrowing the extreme 'deadzone' makes the stick report 100% deflection at the 66% point of movement

Next step now is to try vJoy and see if I can fiddle with that - but I'm not optimistic about it - still, I will attempt it. I feel I must at least have a go at doing something . . .

Their joystick/HOTAS are messed up atm, wont be fixed for another 1-3 weeks.

Being that mouse + keyboard + xbox controller feel much better, it tells you where they spent majority of their time ironing out the controls.

Agnostic my buttocks.

 

[Stormprooter]

I like their flight model.

I think it has a lot of depth especially when it is combined with the operational choices in regards to the ship systems. I can see a very deep skill curve developing here.

Elite: Dangerous has taken a different approach and that is fantastic as we get two very different games, both with depth. Time will tell as to which is more preferable.

I have been enjoying the little I have played of Arena Commander and so far I am not very good.

Practice makes for improvements (not perfect but I can hope).

I think the flight model has potential to be more to my liking, and this is my preference - just slow down the pitch/roll/yaw rates a bit, and the over-corrections and wobbling won't happen. Also the yaw response seems a bit too jerky - but that may well be down to response curves on my X52.

 

[Stormprooter]

Their joystick/HOTAS are messed up atm, wont be fixed for another 1-3 weeks.

Being that mouse + keyboard + xbox controller feel much better, it tells you where they spent majority of their time ironing out the controls.

Agnostic my buttocks.

During the DFM 'progress' video that CIG made back in December (where CR showed us the team and early aspects of the DFM as it was still called then), there was one comment made by one of the developers which did stick in my mind like a thorn.
Chris Roberts was about to demo some gameplay, and he picked up a gamepad (maybe an XBOX controller), and one of the developers shouted out "Oh, don't let them see you using that!". At the time, I thought it was just a bit of office banter, but it has bugged me ever since, and I have never forgotten it.

Now I can see why

 

[drakmaniso]

I think it has a lot of depth especially when it is combined with the operational choices in regards to the ship systems. I can see a very deep skill curve developing here.

Yes, there's a lot of depth and complexity in decision making (at least potentially, when we'll have more access to the ships systems).

The problem is, I don't see any depth in the actual flying skills, i.e., the way you perform the maneuvers. The only thing to learn is how to "ease" your way out of a turn so as to not overshoot. Once you have that, what remains to learn? Switching in and out of decoupled is pretty straightforward. In combat, the only thing you have to do to "fly" your ship is to point in the direction you want to shoot.

There is absolutely no need for roll, since pitch and yaw are a much faster way to achieve the same result. You don't have to control your throttle, since the IFCS does that for you (it reduces your speed to always give you optimal turn rates).

I don't see any manual skills to learn in AC outside of good aiming and reflexes...

 

[Helfix]

During the DFM 'progress' video that CIG made back in December (where CR showed us the team and early aspects of the DFM as it was still called then), there was one comment made by one of the developers which did stick in my mind like a thorn.
Chris Roberts was about to demo some gameplay, and he picked up a gamepad (maybe an XBOX controller), and one of the developers shouted out "Oh, don't let them see you using that!". At the time, I thought it was just a bit of office banter, but it has bugged me ever since, and I have never forgotten it.

Now I can see why

"Hey guys lets make this ultra realistic sim, but lets not focus on the control scheme that would probably be used in one"

Makes sense to me. At least that way you can cater to the masses, because most have m+k and a lot have consoles as well.

 

[forger]

I really try to think about how the current turret in space could be fun. But i still think that WWII dogfight as seen in ED is still the better way to go. But ok, i might be wrong. Time will show.

probably flying connie and bigger ships after you tweak in game your thrusters and add proper upgrades it MIGHT be fun as bigger ships will feel like ships, but the problem is that if you encounter those turrets in space (300i, hornet, aurora, mustang, vanduul etc.) then it will be up to your NPC/PC turrets to kill them, or rely on missiles, because you will never be able to face head to head with those 1 seaters.

i just have very hard to believe that anyone will be able to handle merlin at all.. unless you tweak it's thrusters alot and make it as slow as other 1 seaters and then you loose all advantage.

i can live with current flight model if they add 6DoF, full input customization and give us a way to adjust controller sensitivity, or through HW software or through thruster power distribution, whatever, because currently these are planes and they fly in space like planes and not like ships because thrustes on some of them just are not positioned right to use properly ALL 6 directions.

anyone else noticed that CR definition of turrets in space means "flying ONE vector and shooting in all directions"? funny.

 

[Aleksej]

Yes, there's a lot of depth and complexity in decision making (at least potentially, when we'll have more access to the ships systems).

The problem is, I don't see any depth in the actual flying skills, i.e., the way you perform the maneuvers. The only thing to learn is how to "ease" your way out of a turn so as to not overshoot. Once you have that, what remains to learn? Switching in and out of decoupled is pretty straightforward. In combat, the only thing you have to do to "fly" your ship is to point in the direction you want to shoot.

There is absolutely no need for roll, since pitch and yaw are a much faster way to achieve the same result. You don't have to control your throttle, since the IFCS does that for you (it reduces your speed to always give you optimal turn rates).

I don't see any manual skills to learn in AC outside of good aiming and reflexes...

That is simply because AC is not different from any FPS (yes, there is some inertia in the movements but this does not change anything). There is no difference if you hold the gun, or the gun is attached to your ship. It is all about reflexes and not skills - the one who has more firepower will always win because it is absolutely possible to face the enemy head on all the time. There is no specific difference in maneuvering speeds between the ships, what the difference of one ship can make 180 in 1.5 seconds and the other one in 1.6 seconds?

anyone else noticed that CR definition of turrets in space means "flying ONE vector and shooting in all directions"? funny.

Discussed on the previous page.

 

[forger]

Perhaps they fully intend the game to be played purely by six limbed, basement dwelling insects who are afraid of society?

Edit: OMG - six limbed - basement dwelling insectoids - are these the Thargoids?

know my first thoughts when i saw AC? i need to buy one more stick (i have 1 stick and hotas) and i can then fly with my hands on hotas and both legs on sticks ))))))))))) probably what made me smile will be reality for other players, we already seen people who can use their legs better than most of us can use our hands, so it is just a matter of practice.

this should be SC motto - your legs make all the difference in dog fight

I can only congratulate FD as they are on the right way in creating the BDSSE. Most probably CIG won't be able to create something similar ever.

check the very beginning of 10ftc - CR didn't even call his game BDSSE any more, he called it smth like 'we make best fan interaction with development game'

It doesn't work, and has the exact opposite effect to what I would have wanted. Narrowing the extreme 'deadzone' makes the stick report 100% deflection at the 66% point of movement

Next step now is to try vJoy and see if I can fiddle with that - but I'm not optimistic about it - still, I will attempt it. I feel I must at least have a go at doing something . . .

try ingame thruster power distribution, probably you can reduce overall power and increase some precision, i also guess that some ships will have better thruster placement and you can even influence particular speeds like reduce yaw and increase roll, but probably this all will be ready to play with only in v1++, but CR told you already can do this so..

we need handbrake! if intelligent flight control system doesn't know when we want to stop then we need a damn hand brake!

 

[Aleksej]

check the very beginning of 10ftc - CR didn't even call his game BDSSE any more, he called it smth like 'we make best fan interaction with development game'

Did he refer to FD with design discussion forum with this statement?

 

[Andrew Sayers]

New 10 for C.

That was really interesting, and made me think about two things...

There's a theory of game design called the Mechanics-Dynamics-Aesthetics framework. Essentially it says that developers' primary experience of their game is through its mechanics (how should this ship yaw? How should it react to damage?), while players' primary experience is through its aesthetics (does it feel challenging to shoot down this other ship?). Listening to that episode made me realise they've got so much mechanics, and they've been so deep in it for so long now, that they've lost sight of the aesthetics. I've been in similar situations before - it's a really easy trap to fall into, but quite hard to crawl out of once you've become an expert in the wrong mindset.

Also, a first major release is a difficult thing. You've spent however long hammering away at the mechanics, being mocked and taunted by code that just will not work, thinking you'd beaten it and having that snatched away, and generally being tortured for a living. Then finally it's over - you've slain the beast and it's time to show the world your work - the highest point in the development process, where you can be proud of a job well done. When that moment of elation is followed by the people you worked for booing and jeering - which it usually is - the effect can be heartbreaking. It's extremely tempting in that moment to try and deflect that heartache somehow - they just don't understand, if only we'd had more time, etc.

Comments like "the physics is so accurate the flight model feels bad" make a lot more sense in that context. It's a way of coping with the pain by highlighting players' lack of experience with the thing you have the most experience of. Obviously that's a problem if it becomes a permanent position, but for now it's just a polite holding position while they regain their player's-eye-view of the game. So long as players stream their experiences and narrate their feelings, forum members politely post their views, and the community generally articulates the way they see the world, they should be able to get back to a productive situation easily enough.

 

[Aleksej]

That was really interesting, and made me think about two things...

There's a theory of game design called the Mechanics-Dynamics-Aesthetics framework. Essentially it says that developers' primary experience of their game is through its mechanics (how should this ship yaw? How should it react to damage?), while players' primary experience is through its aesthetics (does it feel challenging to shoot down this other ship?). Listening to that episode made me realise they've got so much mechanics, and they've been so deep in it for so long now, that they've lost sight of the aesthetics. I've been in similar situations before - it's a really easy trap to fall into, but quite hard to crawl out of once you've become an expert in the wrong mindset.

Also, a first major release is a difficult thing. You've spent however long hammering away at the mechanics, being mocked and taunted by code that just will not work, thinking you'd beaten it and having that snatched away, and generally being tortured for a living. Then finally it's over - you've slain the beast and it's time to show the world your work - the highest point in the development process, where you can be proud of a job well done. When that moment of elation is followed by the people you worked for booing and jeering - which it usually is - the effect can be heartbreaking. It's extremely tempting in that moment to try and deflect that heartache somehow - they just don't understand, if only we'd had more time, etc.

Comments like "the physics is so accurate the flight model feels bad" make a lot more sense in that context. It's a way of coping with the pain by highlighting players' lack of experience with the thing you have the most experience of. Obviously that's a problem if it becomes a permanent position, but for now it's just a polite holding position while they regain their player's-eye-view of the game. So long as players stream their experiences and narrate their feelings, forum members politely post their views, and the community generally articulates the way they see the world, they should be able to get back to a productive situation easily enough.

The problem is caused by the fact that they did not provide intuitive controls at all. How can we feel the flight model if the flight controls are all wrong and you cannot tweak them the way you want. You need to wait for a patch and another patch and hope that CIG will tweak the controls the way you will be able to play.

 

[Neo-ST]

That was really interesting, and made me think about two things...

I think you're correct to some extent.
If so, then they should have focused their development on real simulators, not on a game.
This way, they'll only end up butchering something they've been proud of, for the sake of player's attractiveness.

Anyhow, if any of you writes a good post regarding all this on their forums, please let us know

 

[Aleksej]

I think you're correct to some extent.
If so, then they should have focused their development on real simulators, not on a game.
This way, they'll only end up butchering something they've been proud of, for the sake of player's attractiveness.

Anyhow, if any of you writes a good post regarding all this on their forums, please let us know

The only good thing I can say it that flight model might actually be good. However the heading away from the space sim towards FPS - ruins everything.

 

[Mr.Nowak]

Unless, of course, that every area that we will be going to is a "map" of some sort, and you can't actually go out into space. I don't think it will be that way, but what a slap to the face if there were boundaries like in AC.

There will be a lot of areas filled with stuff so it's not boring and empty without content but there will empty space areas like Elite too. Remember all games use map style things Elite uses them too when you drop out of hyperspace you get dropped in to sort of a map.

Anyway once CIG does the switch to 64 bit they will release PU bits and technically you can have endless space which CR said he will do so you can fly forever

check the very beginning of 10ftc - CR didn't even call his game BDSSE any more, he called it smth like 'we make best fan interaction with development game'

Trust me he still calls Star Citizen BDSSE but on that note he was mentioning the community interaction it has nothing to do with his belief in Star Citizens potential. And imho CIG has the best community interaction ever.

 

[forger]

The problem is caused by the fact that they did not provide intuitive controls at all. How can we feel the flight model if the flight controls are all wrong and you cannot tweak them the way you want. You need to wait for a patch and another patch and hope that CIG will tweak the controls the way you will be able to play.

exactly, most testers now test mouse and gamepad, because sticks are broken, you can live with almost any settings on a gamepad and mouse is intuitive, but if they setup hotas/stick the way we are not used the flying is impossible, we don't test the game - we are trying to familiarise ourselves with the input and ANY such change is frustrating because we are battling not the game but ourselves and not fun at all

in such complex game as SC input customization is a MUST before we can even test it properly.

Did he refer to FD with design discussion forum with this statement?

no he didn't

 

[Aleksej]

There will be a lot of areas filled with stuff so it's not boring and empty without content but there will empty space areas like Elite too. Remember all games use map style things Elite uses them too when you drop out of hyperspace you get dropped in to sort of a map.

Anyway once CIG does the switch to 64 bit they will release PU bits and technically you can have endless space which CR said he will do so you can fly forever



Trust me he still calls Star Citizen BDSSE but on that note he was mentioning the community interaction it has nothing to do with his belief in Star Citizens potential. And imho CIG has the best community interaction ever.

What has also disappointed me that earlier CR stated that you will be able to decrease PVP encounters within the game settings. And now he says that SC is all about PVP.

One of our top priorities for Arena Commander is to allow users to customize their key bindings form inside the game. We are actively working on this and hope to deliver something next month.

This is really bad. So their top priority schedule is - one month or more!

 

[Mr.Nowak]

What has also disappointed me that earlier CR stated that you will be able to decrease PVP encounters within the game settings. And now he says that SC is all about PVP.

You can decrease your PVP counters but you can't avoid them completely. The more you go to lawless player controlled systems you go to the less likely you can avoid players. Again jumping the gun too quickly. He didn't say SC is all about PVP he said SC will feature a significant amount of PVP which it will in certain areas that he pointed out in game design last year but try to PVP in high sec systems between UEE military patrols and Advocacy and see what happens.

This is really bad. So their top priority schedule is - one month or more!

Again engaging panic mode early on. CR mentioned that custom keybinds will come with 1.0 and what he is talking about there is July for the AC 1.0 release. Which i perfectly understand because Cryengine doesn't have proper controller keybinding support and they have been trying to code that in to the engine for a while and Engine coding takes even more time than game development so next month for AC 1.0 looks pretty realistic to me.

But i expect 0.9 next week.

 

[Aleksej]

You can decrease your PVP counters but you can't avoid them completely. The more you go to lawless player controlled systems you go to the less likely you can avoid players. Again jumping the gun too quickly. He didn't say SC is all about PVP he said SC will feature a significant amount of PVP which it will in certain areas that he pointed out in game design last year but try to PVP in high sec systems between UEE military patrols and Advocacy and see what happens.



Again engaging panic mode early on. CR mentioned that custom keybinds will come with 1.0 and what he is talking about there is July for the AC 1.0 release. Which i perfectly understand because Cryengine doesn't have proper controller keybinding support and they have been trying to code that in to the engine for a while and Engine coding takes even more time than game development so next month for AC 1.0 looks pretty realistic to me.

But i expect 0.9 next week.

That's not the panic mode. I cannot play the game until I get proper key bindings and there are a lot of others who cannot play for the same reason either. KB/M are not an option, although the game is optimized for them. Also they had 6 moths to implement this but they simply were too lazy as the top priority couldn't have been implemented within this time frame.

 

[Severian]

Remember all games use map style things Elite uses them too when you drop out of hyperspace you get dropped in to sort of a map.

Not really, you can fly from one end of the galaxy to the other without seeing a loading screen. Assuming you have a few thousand years of course. What your talking about is the pause while syncing and joining someone else instance online.

Even though the endless map concept is mostly psychological, it makes the game feel free and open, that you can go anywhere without ever hitting a barrier. When you know there is a wall, it just feels small.

I want to go to there!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQHMqp5BAfw

 

[Mr.Nowak]

Not really, you can fly from one end of the galaxy to the other without seeing a loading screen. Assuming you have a few thousand years of course. What your talking about is the pause while syncing and joining someone else instance online.

Even though the endless map concept is mostly psychological, it makes the game feel free and open, that you can go anywhere without ever hitting a barrier. When you know there is a wall, it just feels small.

I want to go to there!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQHMqp5BAfw

Technically i don't know if anybody tried this but can you drop out of hyperspace and fly over to a planet and actually get there without hyperspace?

Because in Elite when you drop out of Hyperspace it kind of loads a map from the engine. Most people here don't believe it's a map but it actually is a map because for example you can't see the asteroids on a planets ring unless you fly to it with hyperspace then you have the drop out of the travel map in to the local map with the asteroids in the belt so it is a map switch.

But that's not what is important the important part of it is how you do it. SC will follow a similar principle and they said this from the very beginning that space travel will aim to be as immersive as possible and that you will never feel that.

That's not the panic mode. I cannot play the game until I get proper key bindings and there are a lot of others who cannot play for the same reason either. KB/M are not an option, although the game is optimized for them. Also they had 6 moths to implement this but they simply were too lazy as the top priority couldn't have been implemented within this time frame.

It panic mode mate. In those 6 months many other things happened with Cryengine and other aspects of the game and you are calling them lazy out of your inability to use a certain controller in an alpha of an unreleased game which hasn't even reached 1.0 yet. Be patient as i said engine coding is way more difficult than game development things take time if you are this impatient come back in a few months when AC will have way more features and polish but calling people lazy isn't the way to go about it.