External View [A definitive discussion]

[Deyn]

Well, I bought into the Premium Beta yesterday. After setting up my Warthog and Rudders I got out of the station and seemingly the 2nd or 3rd thing I wanted to do was a nice look at my beautiful spacecraft floating through space... ***? Maybe not implemented yet?

I don't know how most of you guys felt after that experience, and don't tell my you didn't want to, at least in the Hangar, but for me this was a big disappointment!

There must be a sensible way to get a non-combat external view.

Even a "show-off zone" with weapons blocked (firing disabled) near a station would be ok.
Personally, I like the idea of a drone/whatever that simply delays change of views for 3 seconds and simply no HUD.
Flying DCS World since A-10C, I still love to look at my plane skimming over the terrain in external or fly-by views. It just looks awesome. Would be great to have it in Elite, too! :thumbup:

 

[NeilF]

Well, I bought into the Premium Beta yesterday. After setting up my Warthog and Rudders I got out of the station and seemingly the 2nd or 3rd thing I wanted to do was a nice look at my beautiful spacecraft floating through space... ***? Maybe not implemented yet?

I don't know how most of you guys felt after that experience, and don't tell my you didn't want to, at least in the Hangar, but for me this was a big disappointment!

The whole matter is still very much up in the air I believe. So we're not really any the wise what sort of external view we'll get, in deed if any (worth mentioning).

 

[NeilF]

I tried getting some more info from the "horses mouth" when DB had a chat on "The Register" - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/06/13/live_chat_david_braben

Alas his answer was vague

NeilF:
Is David able to give us a hint if external views will be offered to fully enjoy the Elite universe? And what limitations they will have to ensure they do not give any game play (combat) advantage?

David Braben:
External views can be quite distancing from the experience of being in a cockpit - it also begs the question as to where to display key ship information. It is something we have been looking at, though.

I must admit his answer confused me somewhat, "it also begs the question as to where to display key ship information," when the answer is surely (for more/all)... you don't?

 

[Rog]

Well, I bought into the Premium Beta yesterday. After setting up my Warthog and Rudders I got out of the station and seemingly the 2nd or 3rd thing I wanted to do was a nice look at my beautiful spacecraft floating through space... ***? Maybe not implemented yet?

I don't know how most of you guys felt after that experience, and don't tell my you didn't want to, at least in the Hangar, but for me this was a big disappointment!

There must be a sensible way to get a non-combat external view.

Even a "show-off zone" with weapons blocked (firing disabled) near a station would be ok.
Personally, I like the idea of a drone/whatever that simply delays change of views for 3 seconds and simply no HUD.
Flying DCS World since A-10C, I still love to look at my plane skimming over the terrain in external or fly-by views. It just looks awesome. Would be great to have it in Elite, too! :thumbup:

Hi Deyn, and firstly: welcome to the forums!

Secondly, I completely agree with you, an external view for all the eye-candy would be very welcome, however some are concerned that it'll be used as a third-person arcade view and offer 'advantage' in combat etc.

Hopefully, we will get a suitably nerfed external view (perhaps a limited camera-drone or whatever) that keeps everyone happy.

Thirdly, have a +1 for nailing the correct thread with your first post!

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

I must admit his answer confused me somewhat, "it also begs the question as to where to display key ship information," when the answer is surely (for more/all)... you don't?

I think he means where on the cockpit HUD would key ship information be displayed if there is a screen popup showing you an external view of your ship. There isn't room if you still want full situal awareness outside your canopy.

DB and Frontier have said you will experience the game from the cockpit. If they allow external views I doubt it will be third person akin to how Star Citizen does it - instead I suspect any external view will be displayed via a camera/probe that transmits the view to a screen on your HUD or cockpit instrument panel (there is actually a kind of TV monitor in some cockpits already). That is how I envision this will be implemented since it remains within the overriding final vision of the game - you are a pilot inside a ship, not the ship - and that's the perspective you will always have.

 

[NeilF]

I think he means where on the cockpit HUD would key ship information be displayed if there is a screen popup showing you an external view of your ship. There isn't room.

DB and Frontier have said you will experience the game from the cockpit. If they allow external views I doubt it will be third person akin to how Star Citizen does it - instead I suspect any external view will be displayed via a camera/probe that transmits the view to a screen on your HUD or cockpit instrument panel (there is actually a kind of TV monitor in some cockpits already). That is how I envision this will be implemented since it remains within the overriding final vision of the game - you are a pilot inside a ship, not the ship - and that's the perspective you will always have.

I took his comment literally as, so you see your ship from an external view (by drone or magic), so where/how do you show all the cockpit information? ie: Where/how on the screen.

To most of us I'd imagine the answer would be, for most information, you don't see it! That's the penalty for being in external view. You're not in external view to play the game, but to - for a few moments - better see it. Don't show the scanner and everything else!

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

Yeah I understand that is the perception for those who are advocating "traditional" third person mode. But like I say, Elite isn't going that route. If we get external views they won't be magic eye third person ones, they'll be piped video transmissions from an external probe that transmits video to an in-cockpit monitor. You will see your ship on a screen whilst sat in your pilots seat.

I must say after seeing nothing new with the way Star Citizen does its nonsensical external views, I'm quite happy with this approach (if its the way ED is going), as its innovative and far more realistic.

 

[jabokai]

Yeah I understand that is the perception for those who are advocating "traditional" third person mode. But like I say, Elite isn't going that route. If we get external views they won't be magic eye third person ones, they'll be piped video transmissions from an external probe that transmits video to an in-cockpit monitor. You will see your ship on a screen whilst sat in your pilots seat.

Why not full screen? Makes no odds does it as long as they nerf movement/sensor/combat ability - should keep the ultra-competitives happy, no? We already view the galaxy map full screen so I don't so why we need to "pretend" to see a drone feed on a cockpit screen.

 

[NeilF]

But like I say, Elite isn't going that route. If we get external views they won't be magic eye third person ones, they'll be piped video transmissions from an external probe that transmits video to an in-cockpit monitor. You will see your ship on a screen whilst sat in your pilots seat.

Have you any evidence to suggest this is the case?

I'd have to say, personally, this proposal seems pretty pointless. An external view is there to enjoy the view to its maximum. Why therefore minimize it (lessen it) by reducing it into a hud window? Every other (current) external view in the game is full screen, and so is the galaxy map, so there's no precedent?

It also brings to the table all the combat advantages? You can look around while still having all the benefits of your cockpit? At least a full external view (with no cockpit) you're instantly paying a price!

 

[kfmush]

Have you any evidence to suggest this is the case?

I'd have to say, personally, this proposal seems pretty pointless. An external view is there to enjoy the view to its maximum. Why therefore minimize it (lessen it) by reducing it into a hud window? Every other (current) external view in the game is full screen, and so is the galaxy map, so there's no precedent?

It also brings to the table all the combat advantages? You can look around while still having all the benefits of your cockpit? At least a full external view (with no cockpit) you're instantly paying a price!

Have you noticed the little screen between your legs in the cockpit (of the eagle at least)? It's not currently used for anything. My guess is that screen will be used for various external cameras and other things, like viewing the landing pad when docking.

However, what I imagine happening with drones is that the video feed will initially show up on that screen, the player's view will zoom in so that it encompasses their field of view almost entirely. Or some animation to transition to full screen for drones.

If this is true, I wonder if people with oculus rifts won't be able to see their ships externally in sterioscopic 3D. I might be okay with that, actually.

 

[B1ghubba]

Training

I'd find an external view helpful for flight training.
Seeing the difference of inputs with flight assist on or off would help my small brain get to grips with this aspect of the game.

B1g

 

[NeilF]

Have you noticed the little screen between your legs in the cockpit (of the eagle at least)? It's not currently used for anything. My guess is that screen will be used for various external cameras and other things, like viewing the landing pad when docking.

However, what I imagine happening with drones is that the video feed will initially show up on that screen, the player's view will zoom in so that it encompasses their field of view almost entirely. Or some animation to transition to full screen for drones.

If this is true, I wonder if people with oculus rifts won't be able to see their ships externally in sterioscopic 3D. I might be okay with that, actually.

All sounds fine, just as long as full screen (or nigh on) external views are there

An external view on a small screen/hud is somewhat missing the point IMHO.

 

[Rog]

Why not full screen? Makes no odds does it as long as they nerf movement/sensor/combat ability - should keep the ultra-competitives happy, no? We already view the galaxy map full screen so I don't so why we need to "pretend" to see a drone feed on a cockpit screen.

I quite agree: it's not deemed necessary for accessing station feeds, trading, the galaxy map or outfitting is it?

Simple camera drone that takes say 5 seconds to deploy and stow, no HUD/scanner, limited range from your ship, is 'EM noisy' so lights everybody else's scanner up, etc.

Jeez, how hard can this be?

 

[Memnoch]

All sounds fine, just as long as full screen (or nigh on) external views are there

An external view on a small screen/hud is somewhat missing the point IMHO.

True but that smaller screen would go some way to alleviating the concerns that some have about it being abused in MP.

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

Have you any evidence to suggest this is the case?

Its obviously speculation but its based off various dev quotes that follow the same steadfast theme it seems. The DB quote you posted also seems to be coming from this viewpoint too - at least that's the way I perceived it taking into account FDs continuous stance on how important the cockpit is and integral to FDs vision of the Elite experience.

Half the reason to ensure any 3rd person view can't be used effectively in a combat situation is for unfairness and forcing the path of least resistance on all players undermining all our work in the cockpit.

The second and arguably more important half is that a 3rd person way to play the game runs completely counter to the experience we're trying to sell; that is you, the pilot, experiencing space flight and combat from a first person view, the most immersive way to play the game.

I do not buy for one second that treating your real life monitors as your "cockpit" windows into space is a better way to handle it unless you've actually built yourself a sidewinder cockpit in real life in which to sit within when you play the game, with monitors positioned through the canopy structure and bespoke controls dotted around to interact with.

Secondly any such approach to playing the game requires that we slap on some floaty, gamified UI on top of the view to make sure you can actually play the game in the first place with your monitor into space set up which would also obscure your view in much the same way our 3D cockpits do except it wont look as good.

Thirdly you wouldn't see each ships bespoke cockpit layout and design any more and there would be no point us working hard to make these ships feel and look real when half or more of the player base will just hide them away at the earliest opportunity.

We have the ability to do that (take external screenshots), I don't know if it'll remain for you guys to play with in that form but I'm sure we would offer some form of tool for doing that sort of thing. I strongly doubt you'll be able to fly your ship whilst doing it though.

The experience is the main issue and the reason we did it (first person only). The fact it has implications for multiplayer (those implications being that everything is conveniently fair) is a bonus really.

(emphasis mine).

Bottom line is I doubt you will get a traditional 3rd person view if a way cannot be found to incorporate it into a first person experience. So we may get external views (not necessarily in the third person), just external views that we can look at from the viewpoint of our characters eyes and not some out of body experience. They (FD) seem adamant that they won't go that out of body viewpoint route, and I can't see how the 3rd person view talked about in this thread can work unless you detach it from the pilot/cockpit experience.

Im sure FD want us to be able to see our ships from an external viewpoint. It may even be required at some point when we have EVA and can send probes out to inspect external ship damage etc - or sending it scouting the inside of a derelict ship. But that viewpoint doesn't necessarily mean a 3rd person one. It could be like I said, a piped video feed from an external probe to the cockpit HUD.



On a related note, FD seem keen on promoting ED and Oculus Rift. How would 3rd person fit in with the rift? Would it give you the sense of having a solid holographic image in the palm of your hand? Or something completely different? I'd actually be interested in seeing how 3rd person and OR works and what the experience is like.

 

[NeilF]

True but that smaller screen would go some way to alleviating the concerns that some have about it being abused in MP.

True! Let's make it 10x6 pixels just to be sure then!

 

[NeilF]

Its obviously speculation but its based off various dev quotes that follow the same steadfast theme it seems. The DB quote you posted also seems to be coming from this viewpoint too - at least that's the way I perceived it taking into account FDs continuous stance on how important the cockpit is and integral to FDs vision of the Elite experience.

Spoiler

(emphasis mine).

Bottom line is I doubt you will get a traditional 3rd person view if a way cannot be found to incorporate it into a first person experience. So we may get external views (not necessarily in the third person), just external views that we can look at from the viewpoint of our characters eyes and not some out of body experience. They (FD) seem adamant that they won't go that out of body viewpoint route, and I can't see how the 3rd person view talked about in this thread can work unless you detach it from the pilot/cockpit experience.

Im sure FD want us to be able to see our ships from an external viewpoint. It may even be required at some point when we have EVA and can send probes out to inspect external ship damage etc - or sending it scouting the inside of a derelict ship. But that viewpoint doesn't necessarily mean a 3rd person one. It could be like I said, a piped video feed from an external probe to the cockpit HUD.



On a related note, FD seem keen on promoting ED and Oculus Rift. How would 3rd person fit in with the rift? Would it give you the sense of having a solid holographic image in the palm of your hand? Or something completely different? I'd actually be interested in seeing how 3rd person and OR works and what the experience is like.

This is clearly where we differ on our interpretation of the dev comments, and possibly peoples' interpretation of external view.

IMHO the devs are saying they really do not want people to play the game from an external view.

To me this is a very different argument to being able to at least view the game from an external view.

ie: If you want to do anything of significance, eg: fight, IMHO the cockpit must be the place to be. Any external view should be so impractical it's not worth it unless you're really pee'ing about!

ps: And let's remember we've seen exactly this sort of external (traditional full screen) view demonstrated in FD's own videos.

 

[Memnoch]

ie: If you want to do anything of significance, eg: fight, IMHO the cockpit must be the place to be. Any external view should be so impractical it's not worth it unless you're really pee'ing about!

I don't think anyone would argue against that. But the devil is in the detail, as ever, and it is how you go about designing it to work well for those that want to make machinima or simply view their ships doing cool stuff from the outside while simultaneously ensuring that it cannot be abused in some way to gain advantage over another human player.

 

[Rog]

IMHO the devs are saying they really do not want people to play the game from an external view.

To me this is a very different argument to being able to at least view the game from an external view.

Exactly.

Apart from the odd person here and there, NOBODY wants an external view that is also a feasible way of piloting your ship.

I fully support the devs aims in making the cockpit view the de facto viewpoint for actually piloting the ship, however I fail to see why that excludes a nerfed camera drone type thingy.

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

^^ This is clearly where we differ on our interpretation of the dev comments, and possibly peoples' interpretation of external view.

IMHO the devs are saying they really do not want people to play the game from an external view.

To me this is a very different argument to being able to at least view the game from an external view.

ie: If you want to do anything of significance, eg: fight, IMHO the cockpit must be the place to be. Any external view should be so impractical it's not worth it unless you're really pee'ing about!

Yeah, that's a fair assessment. Personally I think FD don't want us to experience Elite Dangerous from anywhere but the pilots eyes since the pilot is the most important aspect of the whole game - not his ship. And I'm fine with that. It fits in with my vision of what the game is all about - me against the universe.