External View [A definitive discussion]

[NeilF]

Erh - rubbish. External view has no intrinsic balance value in a game that has an iconic radar display front and center alongside a holographic 3d display that shows you where your shields have been hit for the same reasons that having an Oculus or a joystick or a throttle isn't unbalancing.

There are games where external view does have an effect - but even many of those successfully pull off some limited version of external view, and I don't have a problem with constraints on such a system.

Almost all of the arguments against external view are just plain whiney and primitive.

Free-form unconstrained camera positioning I can conceed, but the ability to view the exterior of your ship, and/or from multiple cameras placed around the ship is nothing but good game design and good player experience, and in this context, entirely consistent with maintaining immersion.

-Oliver

As someone who is very keen to have an external view, I can understand there are clear gameplay/balance issues with the addition of it. That said, I'm sure a few limitations/nerfs can make it good for its designed purpose (looking at the game), and bad for what it's not designed for (combat etc in the game).

That said, David Braben's response to the question of external views (recently) did worry me. His response was along the lines of where do you display the ship information (in external view), when to most people clearly the answer is, you don't display any of it (Or certainly only a small amount which can probably be toggled). At the end of the day external view is a frill and should, if anything, offer a gameplay disadvantage!

I still fail to see why external views cannot be offered... But if we don't see one in the standard beta I'll be very fearful we won't see one! ie: They'd need the feature tested!

 

[spookytooth]

I'd love the ability to be able to take outside views - as many others are. How else can you enjoy the splendour that the Team has developed?

Unless I'm missing something, surely it wouldn't be too difficult for the developers to render weapons in-opperable when in an outside view - just a simple game switch?

And of course no HUD or other information at all. Just a clear, unrestricted view of the fantastic work that's gone/going into ED

 

[NeilF]

Unless I'm missing something, surely it wouldn't be too difficult for the developers to render weapons in-opperable when in an outside view - just a simple game switch?

And of course no HUD or other information at all. Just a clear, unrestricted view of the fantastic work that's gone/going into ED

Not quite as black and white as that maybe:-
1) The concern would be people would simply flick in/out of an external view to get a better FOV, before then ducking back to the cockpit view to shoot etc. IMHO a simple 4-5 second delay going in/out of external view would nerf it enough (eg: a transisition shot).
2) People may actually want to mess about and see their weapons firing from an exterior view

 

[Jacksy]

I hope we do get external views i want to enjoy the beauty of this game

 

[spookytooth]

Not quite as black and white as that maybe:-
1) The concern would be people would simply flick in/out of an external view to get a better FOV, before then ducking back to the cockpit view to shoot etc. IMHO a simple 4-5 second delay going in/out of external view would nerf it enough (eg: a transisition shot).
2) People may actually want to mess about and see their weapons firing from an exterior view

Well, maybe a compromise along the lines of "screenshot mode" for those that want to take an action shot limited to fixed clock positions that would have to be selected by the player when in that mode. Surely no-one in combat would run the risk of losing valuable seconds in having to run a set-up sequence just to try to get a situational awareness advantage?

I like your idea about the 4-5 second delay.

 

[Rog]

If there is to be an external view of some kind then this should not be fullscreen and should be displayed within the console in the form of a video screen or as a semi-opaque partial overlay on the HUD.

The problem with that is it rather defeats the point for those of us that simply want to enjoy the visuals.

I would also point out that the galactic map, outfitting, the commodities market etc. are all shown full-screen and not on a virtual display in the cockpit.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

The problem with that is it rather defeats the point for those of us that simply want to enjoy the visuals.

I would also point out that the galactic map, outfitting, the commodities market etc. are all shown full-screen and not on a virtual display in the cockpit.

I must admit so long as FD can come up with a way of stopping it being used in combat, and put enough of a delay into it, as well as others nerfs so that it could only ever be conceivably used for mucking about and for eye candy, I hope they do put it in (which is a slight move from where I was right at the start of the thread).

regardless of whether I use it or not, this thread shows there are enough people who want it, and so they should have it imo.

for those who want it in combat or without restrictions however imo they are not being fair as that would basically change the entire point of what the game is about.

 

[NeilF]

for those who want it in combat or without restrictions however imo they are not being fair as that would basically change the entire point of what the game is about.

Blakt! I think we know that's never stood a chance thankfully!

 

[kfsone]

-repost-

 

[kfsone]

Blakt! I think we know that's never stood a chance thankfully!

Look, I'm sorry, Neil, but please stop pandering to this idea that there is some balance issue with "an external view". A free-form external camera is one thing, but: there is already an external view in the game.

Even if there wasn't, the people who are crying balance issues are forum trolls and design-vampires who have done sucking previous games dead of any entertainment value and been forced to leave when they shut down and are here to suck the life out of ED.

Take a look at WarThunder "http://warthunder.com/us/registrati...FHwkEFRAeT1lcPkMiwHpX-XKq7SsGEn8h3_DZ8X3w_wcB" from Gaijin. They've done everything the grognards have hated and bitched about since AirWarrior and beyond, and it's a fantastic game.

The default is "arcade" mode - with every last glorious wonderful feature the haters detest: in-flight rearming, multiple lives, health-bars for damageables, external view.

But you also notice there's a full virtual cockpit... Because you can choose not to play arcade mode. They have realism and historical modes, where you only go up against players of the same ilk. Historical doesn't have icons, no rearming, fuel constraints, fuel weight impact, weapon weight and discharge effects, stress limits, cockpit only view (which includes being potentially unable to see anything if the windshield gets oil, blood or smoke on it).

Everything that the earlier flight sims - Air Warrior, WarBirds, the one from VR7, the Microsoft one, none of them could find a balance because they tried to do one or the other, and every inch they gave the hardcore guys drove away a significant percentage of the gamers, as opposed to every inch they gave the gamers lost them a handful of bilefully vocal hardcores.

You know what? All those annoying arcade fliers bring money to the developers table. Despite being a "cesspit of carebear" features (like not requiring a throttle) WarThunder has one of the best, richest, historical modes possible, including customizable mulit-player campaigns that you can basically DM your own WWII recreation. There are some folks who will never play it because there's an arcade mode. I hope those people enjoy playing with their diecast models in mom's basement. The Dev's themselves are hardcore fans, and by dismissing the vociferous nutjobs who demand and scream about balance in absolute terms, they're able to deliver a successful product that caters both ends of the spectrum and will be able to continue to do so without always having to make knee-jerk reactions in order to ensure the next pay check.

I'm a hardcore player myself. I fly historical in WarThunder, in WarBirds I had my squadron form up on the runway for takeoffs. The difference is I don't want my style of gameplay foisted on others at the expense of the lifetime of the game. Every player that comes and plays some version of the game is money in Frontier's pocket that can go towards continual development and expansion and features and if it means that some people play this game and go to bed at night thinking "whee that was fun" instead of crying in their sleep, I'll take that risk. Just return the favor and let me have my universe my way.

It's not hard for the developers to do - and if they're worth their salt they will be using prototyping mechanisms for fleshing out new features, and building them with flexibility like this should just happen. It's only difficult if they're dumb and hardcode values into the game rather than exposing them as configurables for the designers.

Back to external view, though (again, not free-form external camera) it's not hard to do. It can be a projection on the cockpit, it could be done with a post-processing effect to make it like a video feed. We're talking from up-close to the vehicle. It's not going to give away anything that you can't already glean from the cockpit except that you're flying a really beautiful looking spacecraft.

I've read a bunch of the claims in this thread, and they are just false, whiney crap.

I can understand some people don't want to be forced to play in 3rd person, would much rather be the ship. I played WWII Online for 10 years, worked on it for 9 - so I totally get that. But anyone who is actively "anti" external view is basically just not worth including in discussions and should probably apply to the NHS for a position as a tear donor.

 

[kfsone]

There is nothing about an external camera in this game that affects balance, where balance is the set of game parameters that determine the difficulty for [any player] in [configuration X] to kill/defeat/escape [any player] in configuration Y.

If two players engage in combat and one is in external view while the other isn't, the only real difference - here, in this game, as it exists right now - between what the two of them see is that one has his display partially blocked by the cockpit etc but a nice centralized view while the other gets to see his ship coming apart while he flies in his offset view.

But the HUD gives him all the visual cues he needs to figure out which way the enemy went and he can still see engine trails, etc, etc

Some proportion of people will actually find a cockpit only view easier to work with - they will better handle HUD information like direction indicators and working the radar much easier.

Some people will just find the 3rd person more aesthetically pleasing, but for the most part these people have incredibly low SA and it really just doesn't make any bloody difference to them.

Others will absolutely work the external camera to compliment the radar display with visual processing - e.g. by looking backwards if that's available.

But to call that balance breaking is pure desperation. These people are performing and incredibly complex real time translational mapping. They are looking simultaneously at the radar and then translating a 90/180/270 degree rotated, possibly pitched view.

That requires a huge amount of brain power, and it impinges on their spatial and tactical planning.

In a nutshell - it's the same difference as player A playing on a keyboard while player B is using his mouse while player C is using a joystick/throttle.

Some folks' mirror neurons just won't engage the same way when they're seeing a first person simulation, third person helps it kick in for them. At the same time, there are clear and obvious disadvantages to be had playing in 3rd person for the same reasons that some people can't aim a gun for ****, they're viewing the gun as 3rd person and forcing their brain to do complex translations. Those people are generally going to be happier with a cockpit only view.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

But anyone who is actively "anti" external view is basically just not worth including in discussions and should probably apply to the NHS for a position as a tear donor.

wowsers!!!!

I Am not sure if I am not following your posts, or if you are contradicting yourself.

You use WarThunder as an example as to why 3rd person is great in arcade mode, but then you use simulator battles as an example of good in cockpit view (where it is FORCED along with using a stick).

So, IF you are suggesting that WarThunder works because there are SEPARATE modes and that that is great, and you would like Elite to do the same, with a 3rd person allowable mode, and also a hardcore cockpit only mode and you can choose which one to be locked into at the start.

I think that suggestion has merit and is something I would support (as I would with an anything goes in single player OFFLINE)***.

IF you are suggesting that WarThunder arcade is a good example of how all things can work together in the same mode, be it 1st person, 3rd person, stick or Mouse, then sorry but I think that is simply not true

how anyone could possibly think a player on a stick and in cockpit view is even remotely balanced with 3rd person with mouse in arcade mode is beyond me. In cockpit it is really hard to know when someone is sneaking up on you (and this is a big mechanic in ED, the whole silent running to stay invisible)

where as 3rd person you are all seeing, all knowing.

I love WT, its a great game, I love arcade for what it is, and Simulator mode is fantastic (but takes an age to get a game). The latter is not an issue for elite imo FOR ME as I have little interest in PvP*** but 3rd person arcade mode and 1st person simulation mode are 2 very different beasts and Gaijin were right to have the 2 modes separate.

As for saying those worried about external views are not worth discussing with, well that is vitriolic . Even the DEVS are worried about it, so I presume you include DB et al in that pot too?

*** Both my starred issues however could be big turn offs for the PvPers who do not want the human pot watering down.

 

[CaptainSodom]

Look, I'm sorry, Neil, but please stop pandering to this idea that there is some balance issue with "an external view".
...

That was some 1st class ranting, and topical! I agree that there really is no valid defense for categorically rejecting external view.

One thing I disagree is any degradation of outside view quality, by faking it as a 21st century video feed, for example. There are a lot of people who want to take screenshots using an external view, either to avoid distracting cockpit features, or to have their ship in the shot. But as you and others have said, it can be balanced with various features.

Such use of external view is not only a lot of fun for many, but also an excellent PR and marketing tool for the FB generation, bloggers, and Youtubers. And that's good for FD and the game.

Let's not forget that external view is optional and any immersion breaking is avoided by not using it.

 

[NeilF]

Look, I'm sorry, Neil, but please stop pandering to this idea that there is some balance issue with "an external view". A free-form external camera is one thing, but: there is already an external view in the game.

Spoiler

Even if there wasn't, the people who are crying balance issues are forum trolls and design-vampires who have done sucking previous games dead of any entertainment value and been forced to leave when they shut down and are here to suck the life out of ED.

Take a look at WarThunder "http://warthunder.com/us/registrati...FHwkEFRAeT1lcPkMiwHpX-XKq7SsGEn8h3_DZ8X3w_wcB" from Gaijin. They've done everything the grognards have hated and bitched about since AirWarrior and beyond, and it's a fantastic game.

The default is "arcade" mode - with every last glorious wonderful feature the haters detest: in-flight rearming, multiple lives, health-bars for damageables, external view.

But you also notice there's a full virtual cockpit... Because you can choose not to play arcade mode. They have realism and historical modes, where you only go up against players of the same ilk. Historical doesn't have icons, no rearming, fuel constraints, fuel weight impact, weapon weight and discharge effects, stress limits, cockpit only view (which includes being potentially unable to see anything if the windshield gets oil, blood or smoke on it).

Everything that the earlier flight sims - Air Warrior, WarBirds, the one from VR7, the Microsoft one, none of them could find a balance because they tried to do one or the other, and every inch they gave the hardcore guys drove away a significant percentage of the gamers, as opposed to every inch they gave the gamers lost them a handful of bilefully vocal hardcores.

You know what? All those annoying arcade fliers bring money to the developers table. Despite being a "cesspit of carebear" features (like not requiring a throttle) WarThunder has one of the best, richest, historical modes possible, including customizable mulit-player campaigns that you can basically DM your own WWII recreation. There are some folks who will never play it because there's an arcade mode. I hope those people enjoy playing with their diecast models in mom's basement. The Dev's themselves are hardcore fans, and by dismissing the vociferous nutjobs who demand and scream about balance in absolute terms, they're able to deliver a successful product that caters both ends of the spectrum and will be able to continue to do so without always having to make knee-jerk reactions in order to ensure the next pay check.

I'm a hardcore player myself. I fly historical in WarThunder, in WarBirds I had my squadron form up on the runway for takeoffs. The difference is I don't want my style of gameplay foisted on others at the expense of the lifetime of the game. Every player that comes and plays some version of the game is money in Frontier's pocket that can go towards continual development and expansion and features and if it means that some people play this game and go to bed at night thinking "whee that was fun" instead of crying in their sleep, I'll take that risk. Just return the favor and let me have my universe my way.

It's not hard for the developers to do - and if they're worth their salt they will be using prototyping mechanisms for fleshing out new features, and building them with flexibility like this should just happen. It's only difficult if they're dumb and hardcode values into the game rather than exposing them as configurables for the designers.

Back to external view, though (again, not free-form external camera) it's not hard to do. It can be a projection on the cockpit, it could be done with a post-processing effect to make it like a video feed. We're talking from up-close to the vehicle. It's not going to give away anything that you can't already glean from the cockpit except that you're flying a really beautiful looking spacecraft.

I've read a bunch of the claims in this thread, and they are just false, whiney crap.

I can understand some people don't want to be forced to play in 3rd person, would much rather be the ship. I played WWII Online for 10 years, worked on it for 9 - so I totally get that. But anyone who is actively "anti" external view is basically just not worth including in discussions and should probably apply to the NHS for a position as a tear donor.

I think we'll need to disagree there - I do see issues with an external view, as most people do. And where the arguments typically are, is how serious these issues are, and/or how to solve them. Clearly you're an an extreme end of the scale, but it doesn't mean other people don't have some valid concerns IMHO. And to dismiss people's comments (so strongly) IMHO is not wise.

Anyway, personally I feel an external view can sit very happily in the game with just a few simple nerfs. But at the moment my concern is, does FD agree?

 

[jabokai]

The new Orbis video only reinforces the argument for external views just for loving the eye candy. When I watch those videos I just want to see the game like that, unencumbered from the static, screen-filling view of the inside of my ship.

IMHO cockpitless front view would be great also... this is already pre-nerfed as you'd have no HUD, and no way to move the "camera" other than by moving the ship as normal.

 

[NeilF]

Can someone clarify? The screenshot options in the game (including the new 4K) one, do they take shots with/without the cockpit? Surely you'd want the option for both flavours?

 

[NeilF]

IMHO cockpitless front view would be great also... this is already pre-nerfed as you'd have no HUD, and no way to move the "camera" other than by moving the ship as normal.

People could suggest players would flick in/out of this (cockpitless front view) view to increase the FOV to gain an advantage?

 

[Rog]

People could suggest players would flick in/out of this (cockpitless front view) view to increase the FOV to gain an advantage?

They would, but no hud or any other aids would be a big disadvantage, add a time delay in/out to make it even less tactical.

Anyway, it might be best to concentrate on just getting a simple external view in the first place before embellishing the modes.

 

[jabokai]

People could suggest players would flick in/out of this (cockpitless front view) view to increase the FOV to gain an advantage?

People are idiots, it's true.

Honestly, the focus down to the minutest detail of competitiveness for PvP is getting right on my nerves!

 

[Rog]

People are idiots, it's true.

Honestly, the focus down to the minutest detail of competitiveness for PvP is getting right on my nerves!

Even if I *really* tried, I could not agree more!