The Star Citizen Thread v5

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Still not sure why it's being continually repeated in this thread that either I've never made a SC donation, or don't play the game, or both.

I mean - really, it's getting weird.
SC donation? Hm, interesting that you should say that. As far as I know, you can only purchase digital or physical goods in their store, by putting packages to buy in your cart, with VAT added where applicable, and if you don't have an RSI account then by registering one and agreeing to the terms of service. Is there a separate interface that I'm not aware of and where you can make actual donations? (Not that I plan on doing that, but I am curious.)
 
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Well in defence to the CIG that video is from december of 2016 just right in time to rise the hype of the 2.6...so it´s not entirely "newish" but yeah I can agree that there is bunch of nonsense and usual marketing tricks all over it.....

Ahh okay...honestly, after the last few misses from CIG/RSI, I haven't really bothered to check on this thread (the last place I was still going for news on SC) but once a week or so. At this point, the thread moves so quickly that I just look for Rolan :p
 
This is the worst way to do such a poll. In a sense that the result should have been clear before the poll even begun

The additional funding continues to expand the scope of the game and make what we’re doing possible… but it’s becoming more and more difficult to quantify that with more stretch goals (and to explain that to the rest of the world, which likes to focus only on how much money we’ve made.)

It's basically "Do you want more awesome stuff like capital ships and procgen?", with a more subtle subtext of letting the community take responsibility for the scope creep if "the rest of the world" questions it.
 

Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
From my little (and far from professional) experience in game development i have learned that polls where you ask a community "DO YOU WANT MORE FEATURES?" will always result a YES for MORE FEATURES. That is why such polls are meaningless. You know the result beforehand. And such a poll could be used as a tool to justify something you had planned all along.
That's why i was curious to find this ominous poll to see how well the downsides of either choice were communicated, if they were balanced and if they still hold true when considering the development time since then. (See below)


I am not sure. I don't see the actual poll there. It might be related however.

Thanks, that seems to be it. Scrolled past it the first time. This is the worst way to do such a poll. In a sense that the result should have been clear before the poll even begun. Not that most people who voted in the poll even would have read that one paragraph in that letter that cares to explain why this poll even exists. But even if someone did, It isn't communicated what either choice would mean for the project:


http://i.imgur.com/nGV0IOA.png
That's the whole thing. I assume it is even watered down now from what it was when it has been considered back then, since you can still add a vote to that poll.

It is a non issue. If someone tries to justify the game scope creep that way he/she is just wrong. The community didnt decide anything. CIG, and Chris Roberts ultimately, is 100% accountable for the direction and management of the development.

For starters that poll happened around the 46 USD MM mark (June 2014), i.e. well past the moment in time where the scope had ALREADY allegedly started increasing (end of 2013) which was at the end of the original 23 USD MM already updated campaign. So the point in time (June 2014) of that poll was already well over half way through the time where the game scope had been growing already with all stretch goals all the way to 46 millions. Remember the stretch goals stopped at 65 millions.

What CIG then did was simply to put up a poll in their forums. Which is not a contractual bind nor a legal commitment by any party of any kind. Especially when forum goers in any game community are just but a fraction of the total population, let alone a decision capable majority of any kind. CIG did that poll just so to maintain some public relations semblant of legitimacy (if that, at 55%) but the fact is the only party here that is 100% responsible for the decision to add more scope and prolong development is only CIG.

A "poll" was neither required nor sufficient to justify any decision on enlarging scope and delay release. First simply CIG decided to increase scope and delay release (or possibly "increased scope" so to be able to justify an inevitable delayed release), and then it updated the ToS to suit that plan.

CIG could have very well tried to deliver all the promised content at the time in 2014 as aimed for originally, and then gradually build upon it more scope from there on. But it didnt. It was all 100% on CIG.

My personal theory is that CIG may have had more issues than expected (technical, resources, scheduling etc) to even deliver the original scope in 2014 and took the opportunity of the ever increasing funding to excuse the eventual delays through increased scope. An example of what, in Spain, we call "fleeing forwards". Thereby entering into a spiral of fidelity and technical debt... the rest is history.
 
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I just felt a disturbance in the force when I was looking up if the lovely twitter legend Peter Molydeux hat posted something about Star Citizen so far. But hey, Peter Molyneux and Chris Roberts actually had kind of a dialogue about merging (!) Godus and Star Citizen three years ago. I totally for starting a petition to bring this idea on the table again. Think about it: The two legends of revolutionary game design, the godfather of open-world godgames and the godfather of space operas make a mindblowing game together. Check it out, it is min 2:15 in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9wExn706uQ

Ok now I watched this, and oh my god, they are both so nuts. Watching CR suggestion and then PM enthusiastic response I cannot but faceplam.
 
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SC donation? Hm, interesting that you should say that. As far as I know, you can only purchase digital or physical goods in their store, by putting packages to buy in your cart, with VAT added where applicable, and if you don't have an RSI account then by registering one and agreeing to the terms of service. Is there a separate interface that I'm not aware of and where you can make actual donations? (Not that I plan on doing that, but I am curious.)

No, thats just a mental shield SC fans use to defend themselves against the obvious "You did what?! You spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on non-existing spaceship in a non-existing game?! Are you insane!".

"No good Sir, I am just making a donation. When I found that JPEG I was most surprised, I didnt even know there was an Idris attached to my donation."
 
I swear, if this forum didn't have a cursing filter, I'd be lighting up this post filled with them. So just imagine the stream of adult words I'm wishing I could type.

When some people say they bought the game, they get criticized by others saying "You didn't buy anything. You supported it with a donation on Kickstarter." When I say I donated, I'm being told it's some mental safespace, and that I bought it.

Use whatever word you want to describe "I have a Star Citizen account and I can play in the Public Universe. This was the result of a bank transaction between RSI and myself."

...
 
When some people say they bought the game, they get criticized by others saying "You didn't buy anything. You supported it with a donation on Kickstarter."

I can't say I've ever seen anyone say that other than on r/sc or on RSI as part of the standard toolset to hurl abuse at people who have the audacity to suggest that maybe CIG should be held accountable for what they've sold to people…
 
I swear, if this forum didn't have a cursing filter, I'd be lighting up this post filled with them. So just imagine the stream of adult words I'm wishing I could type.

When some people say they bought the game, they get criticized by others saying "You didn't buy anything. You supported it with a donation on Kickstarter." When I say I donated, I'm being told it's some mental safespace, and that I bought it.

Use whatever word you want to describe "I have a Star Citizen account and I can play in the Public Universe. This was the result of a bank transaction between RSI and myself."

...

Read again, carefully. Stay calm, dont swear, just think.

1) You didnt buy the game. There is no game. Its in Alpha, as you are fond of saying. You are entitled to get the game, so its a pre-order.
2) You dont donate, because its technically and legally simply not a donation.
3) You do spend money on stuff you dont have, and that with every passing day seems less and less likely to ever be delivered in any shape resembling the promises.

Thats it. So you never donated nor bought a game, you pre-ordered, which is you threw money in a hole hoping someday your non-existent ship will materialise in your non-existent game. Thats what it is. And while there is nothing wrong with a pre-order, it gets funny when people spend a huge amount of money to pre-order a hugely unlikely promise made by a dude famous for not keeping his promises. Thats what people ridicule, and thats why people dress it up like 'I just bought a game' and 'Oh, I just donated to x'. :)
 
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Dunno I pre ordered SC and so far I like what I have played though I am waiting till its more complete to do more than testing. Guess what I am getting at is that perhaps it's good that some of us are able to throw cash in the hopes of getting a good game we will like...

I mean just imagine how ED may never have happened if some of us hadn't thrown money at Frontier "pre order" like even after Frontier didn't *gasp* do a whole bunch of what they were suppose to... like offline mode etc etc.

Something to think of before anyone ridicules others for hoping something good will come of it.
 
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Still not sure why it's being continually repeated in this thread that either I've never made a SC donation, or don't play the game, or both.

I mean - really, it's getting weird.

I also thought you were a grey market trader who didn't play at all, I checked my post history thinking we'd already argued about it and found I'd mixed you up with another poster called SlickReed. I think I'm not the only one who has done this.

His approach to the thread is extremely similar to yours, and neither of you stand out from other past pro-sc posters. Pretty much everything discussed has been done to death already, it gets very samey after a while and the same old arguments and posters all blur into one.

You need a gimmick like always posting in green italics, saying lulzbuckets a lot or even a really cool picture of space 1999 as your sig.

Damn, I mixed you up with him too, sorry!
 
Dunno I pre ordered SC and so far I like what I have played though I am waiting till its more complete to do more than testing. Guess what I am getting at is that perhaps it's good that some of us are able to throw cash in the hopes of getting a good game we will like...

I mean just imagine how ED may never have happened if some of us hadn't thrown money at Frontier "pre order" like even after Frontier didn't *gasp* do a whole bunch of what they were suppose to... like offline mode etc etc.

Something to think of before anyone ridicules others for hoping something good will come of it.

It's not really the same I pre-ordered ED at gamma when the demo was great with a fantastic flight model, and the test universe was 50 or 150 systems (I forget which) and actively expanding all the time. SC is still massively behind the level of quality where I'd consider a pre-order (and years overdue, and pay to win, and hideously broken).

ED and SC had exactly the same opportunity but ED delivered SC failed.
 
It's not really the same I pre-ordered ED at gamma when the demo was great with a fantastic flight model, and the test universe was 50 or 150 systems (I forget which) and actively expanding all the time. SC is still massively behind the level of quality where I'd consider a pre-order (and years overdue, and pay to win, and hideously broken).

ED and SC had exactly the same opportunity but ED delivered SC failed.

I disagree, sure SC went way way over it's scope with feature creep but it's still in development (alpha) while ED isn't. ED had to cut out quite a bit to be able to keep to its deadline and actually go "live".

ED was hideously broken to at times and they even cut lots of stuff out instead of fixing it.

No ED took a different approach which allowed it to go live but essentially it's bare-bones, I am not impressed with the BGS which I feel is still "hideously broken".

In essence ED cut stuff to go live earlier while SC has added lots of stuff but pushed back on live.

You can't say ED delivered as it cut some stuff to go live and then say SC failed when it still being developed.

The "SC failed" will only happen when they stop developing it or it goes lives and perchance tanks.

It's like ED, I am very not happy with some stuff and the direction it has taken but I couldn't say it "failed" and that from someone that was most keen for offline.

Likewise SC has gone some direction I really don't like but to say its p2w or failed is frankly premature.

OH on the p2w.. I assume you mean the purchase of ships...well you can earn then in game and if there's no change only starter packs will be purchasable once it goes live which kind of kills the p2w claim IMO

Think of it this way I could claim ED is p2w because I didn't buy horizons which clearly gives an advantage to those who did and I can't even earn those advantages in game like you can the ships in SC..hmmm
 
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I disagree, sure SC went way way over it's scope with feature creep but it's still in development (alpha) while ED isn't. ED had to cut out quite a bit to be able to keep to its deadline and actually go "live".

Part of the problem lies in the timescale. The development is in its' sixth year, and SC still doesn't have more than 5% of the planned features. Sure, you can't know with perfect conviction that those features won't be finished, but in general past behaviour can be used to predict the future to some degree of accuracy. Notable releases in 2016 have contained: their largest ship to date, Starfarer (one hundred meters, apparently very taxing on the server, and still pretty much 5% of the length of their largest promised ship), tha ability to store cash balance and what clothes is your character wearing, some clothes and gun shops, some improvements to the UI (the node system or whatever-it's-called), removal of headbob, one more station in the system, and few more small missions. Do you think they will go anywhere in the next five years with that kind of development pace?
 
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I disagree, sure SC went way way over it's scope with feature creep but it's still in development (alpha) while ED isn't. ED had to cut out quite a bit to be able to keep to its deadline and actually go "live".

Star Citizen isn't in alpha yet and it was due out in 2014, ED was delayed by a few weeks maybe a month at the most (it didn't effect me I was already playing) and the only thing that was dropped was offline. When we all had dial-up connecting to the net could be an issue, everyone's online all the time now.

ED was hideously broken to at times and they even cut lots of stuff out instead of fixing it.

Got any examples ?. There's been glitches and regular expansive bug fixes and upgrades, but it's always been a working updated version of elite with a great flight model. Which is all I wanted

No ED took a different approach which allowed it to go live but essentially it's bare-bones, I am not impressed with the BGS which I feel is still "hideously broken".

I like supporting a minor faction via the BGS, you can exert influence but you don't have any direct control. This prevents EVE style problems of "no gurls aloud" signs popping up all over the bubble crippling the game for independent pilots (who are the target audience).

In essence ED cut stuff to go live earlier while SC has added lots of stuff but pushed back on live.

Yes that was always the plan, FD told us all that repeatedly, stuck to it and its worked. SC change like the wind never keep a date (except jpeg sales) and have even changed their tune on the game (now games) being fully funded already. The only thing CIG do consistently is be very inconsistent indeed.

You can't say ED delivered as it cut some stuff to go live and then say SC failed when it still being developed.

Offline mode ?, if that really bothers you you should have refunded a few years ago when it was an issue.

The "SC failed" will only happen when they stop developing it or it goes lives and perchance tanks.

I'm a space-game fan I'm their target audience and they have failed to impress me and failed to interest me to the point where I'd give them money, in fact I advise people to get refunds. That's a pretty big fail. I bought played and enjoyed x-com interceptor that's how much I like space-sims.

It's like ED, I am very not happy with some stuff and the direction it has taken but I couldn't say it "failed" and that from someone that was most keen for offline.

Yeah yeah offline again. Bored of that two years ago, well done you I'm moving on (so should you).

Likewise SC has gone some direction I really don't like but to say its p2w or failed is frankly premature.

It's three years overdue with less than one of the hundred systems it's supposed to have at launch, it's weighed down by engineering debt through ship sales and the flight model is pants, they constantly re-shoot mo-cap and make no actual progress other than refactoring everything in a re-run of what went wrong with freelancer thanks to Chris Roberts. they even missed their own convention (that they sold tickets for) If that doesn't change they will fail.

They sell ships and in game money that's as pay2win as it can be.

OH on the p2w.. I assume you mean the purchase of ships...well you can earn then in game and if there's no change only starter packs will be purchasable once it goes live which kind of kills the p2w claim IMO

No you can't earn them in game there's no economy or trade. CIG have made some promises which if past performance is anything to go by they won't keep or remember making, and if they remember making them they'll probably delete that page from their website.

Selling jpegs is the only thing they do well, they will never stop doing it.

Think of it this way I could claim ED is p2w because I didn't buy horizons which clearly gives an advantage to those who did and I can't even earn those advantages in game like you can the ships in SC..hmmm

Horizons is great, I love trundling about in my moon buggy when I'm not flying my super-fast long range spaceship of cool running doom. I wish I'd bought a lifetime pass.
 
Now the talk is about buying ships and p2w: does anyone else remember some SC dev mentioning that Polaris might cost 20-30 million UEC?
 
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Now the talk is about buying ships and p2w: does anyone else remember some SC dev mentioning that Polaris might cost 20-30 million UEC?

Oh yes - buy stuff NAO because everything will massively increase in price later on - and these ships represent great value at their current crazy discounts ;)

It was a Ben Lenslock segment wasn't it?
 
Star Citizen isn't in alpha yet and it was due out in 2014, ED was delayed by a few weeks maybe a month at the most (it didn't effect me I was already playing) and the only thing that was dropped was offline. When we all had dial-up connecting to the net could be an issue, everyone's online all the time now.

Indeed SC has been delayed due to massive feature creep perhaps you missed me saying this? offline isn't about being connected via dial up or cable etc etc.

Like I said SC and ED went opposite routes. One cut stuff to keep the deadline the other added stuff and pushed the deadline way way further.



Got any examples ?. There's been glitches and regular expansive bug fixes and upgrades, but it's always been a working updated version of elite with a great flight model. Which is all I wanted.

Go look in the archived forums and you'll see all the stuff that was suppose to happen which wont, offline was just the easiest and most obvious. I am happy you got what you wanted, some of us didn't.


I like supporting a minor faction via the BGS, you can exert influence but you don't have any direct control. This prevents EVE style problems of "no gurls aloud" signs popping up all over the bubble crippling the game for independent pilots (who are the target audience).

Great I am again happy you're enjoying the game. For me the BGS is a huge fail, it's bland and not very immersive and has very little to almost zero impact other than a few numbers changing. I am however happy this isn't Eve in cockpits.

Yes that was always the plan, FD told us all that repeatedly, stuck to it and its worked. SC change like the wind never keep a date (except jpeg sales) and have even changed their tune on the game (now games) being fully funded already. The only thing CIG do consistently is be very inconsistent indeed.

Actually ED didn't stick to the plan, again look at offline and what a huge outcry that caused also go read up in the archived post. Indeed like I said SC went a different route pushed backl the date cause lets face it their KS and crowdfunding went way way past what ED achieved and thus they decided to change the scope of the game as sometimes happens with crowdfunded games.

Come to think of it ED had no choice but cut as frankly their budget didn't allow for any less unlike SC.


Offline mode ?, if that really bothers you you should have refunded a few years ago when it was an issue.

Why would I do that? When you support via KS or other types of crowdfunding you should be aware of the risks and that the scope of stuff could change and I don't feel it proper to ask for a refund cause of XYZ. I may not be 100% happy with ED but that doesn't mean I hate it and want it to fail.



I'm a space-game fan I'm their target audience and they have failed to impress me and failed to interest me to the point where I'd give them money, in fact I advise people to get refunds. That's a pretty big fail. I bought played and enjoyed x-com interceptor that's how much I like space-sims.

I'm a space-game fan and I am not impressed with ED beyond the flight model and cockpits. The universe is bland and boring and I really really really need to work hard to remain immersed and motivated to log in.

As a space fan I can never say I advise people to ask for refunds during development cause any true space game fan wants the genre to shine, not fail cause I am in hating mood or feeling whingy.


Yeah yeah offline again. Bored of that two years ago, well done you I'm moving on (so should you).

Yeah yeah p2w and there is no game again. Got bored of that about one year ago, well done you. Maybe you should move on?



It's three years overdue with less than one of the hundred systems it's supposed to have at launch, it's weighed down by engineering debt through ship sales and the flight model is pants, they constantly re-shoot mo-cap and make no actual progress other than refactoring everything in a re-run of what went wrong with freelancer thanks to Chris Roberts. they even missed their own convention (that they sold tickets for) If that doesn't change they will fail.

Yes yes like I said they pushed lots of stuff back due to demand so expecting them to hold to the original KS deadline is beyond ridiculous and rather a disingenuous argument.

They sell ships and in game money that's as pay2win as it can be.

You wont be able to buy these ship once the game goes live, only the starter ones. This is part of crowdfunding process. IF you really see this as p2w then you can't claim ED isn't due to them hiding major powercreep in the seasons (looking at you engineers) they have decided to go with.


No you can't earn them in game there's no economy or trade. CIG have made some promises which if past performance is anything to go by they won't keep or remember making, and if they remember making them they'll probably delete that page from their website.

Selling jpegs is the only thing they do well, they will never stop doing it.

Again your being disingenuous with false information. There will be an economy once it's live and ship sales will stop.



Horizons is great, I love trundling about in my moon buggy when I'm not flying my super-fast long range spaceship of cool running doom. I wish I'd bought a lifetime pass.

I am glad you and others are enjoying horizons and hope the next seasons will bring something that will make me want to buy them and I hope ED does well in the future regardless of my like or dislike of its current state.

A real space game fan doesn't talk as you do. A real space game fan wants space games to flourish.... not hope they fail and actively advise others to ask for refunds in the hopes to "win" a discussion.

Ultimately as a space game fan I want all space game to be a success cause the good ones are few and far in between, I am very much for the live and let live and to each their own mentality.

To bad some people are more interested in hating or knighting, this isn't aimed at you btw but just a general observation about what I see in so many post in so many threads in such threads.
 
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