External View [A definitive discussion]

[kfsone]

So, IF you are suggesting that WarThunder works because there are SEPARATE modes and that that is great, and you would like Elite to do the same, with a 3rd person allowable mode, and also a hardcore cockpit only mode and you can choose which one to be locked into at the start.

You're exactly right. Apologies if I was unclear, it's the versatility of multiple, discrete modes, isolated from each other -- like PvP vs PvE realms in WoW.

As for saying those worried about external views are not worth discussing with, well that is vitriolic .

I didn't say not worth discussing, but baseless fears aren't worth pandering to. There is absolutely no negative balance impact of an external camera view in this game. ALL of the arguments I've seen presented in this thread are lifted almost verbatim from past flight-sim/space-sim forums by people, as I suggested, who just have an overstocked spleen.

The closest anyone could come to an actual """balance""" issue is in suggesting that external view will make it easier for some players. But so does the colorblind option, and for not dissimilar reasons. It's not balance, it's simple ergonomics, c.f:

where as 3rd person you are all seeing, all knowing.

WarThunder doesn't have a hologram of the ship or a [fully-functioning] radar in the middle of the cockpit (there is the map view but its limited), so that point is pretty irrelevant. In ED, the cockpit view provides you with all the same information as you're going to obtain from 3rd person. Some people will find it much easier to get that data from a HUD.

What matters is how your brain handles the transient environment mapping of an projected inclusion simulation (first person) vs the visual affirmation of detachment (3rd person).

As I said - 3rd vs 1st person in this game is no more a balance issue than keyboard vs mouse vs keyboard+mouse vs joystick. It's essentially an ergonomic thing.

Most people literally aren't wired to translate a projected simulation. Pilots that can fly modern hud-based aircraft are *not* a dime a dozen for precisely this reason.

(Note: I've done some DoD/DARPA work on simulations, so I'm not speculating here)

In cockpit it is really hard to know when someone is sneaking up on you (and this is a big mechanic in ED, the whole silent running to stay invisible)

That comes close to demonstrating my point about lifting fear mongering from other/past games.

I totally get and expect that the 3rd person view should be constrained by the data available in the cockpit so as not to render the games core mechanics pointless. That disparity would affect balance. But that's only a case for ensuring balance and not actually a case against 3rd person; claiming it to be is as disingenuous as saying "poop comes out of my cat's anus, it must be burned at the stake for witchcraft".

3rd person view does not innately pose a balance risk to this game. If you have concerns of ways that Frontier might balls it up, then by all means point out the aspects that could make it unfair - such as if the cockpit guy can't tell there's a ship 30ft behind him but 3rd person guy can, there we go.

 

[SAB380]

But kfsone, what about the potentially fatal breaks in immersion?

Do you have any idea what it may do to someone who can't help themselves from pushing the 3rd person button but has not yet mentally prepared themselves to see the view change from inside the cockpit to viewing their own ship from the void of space ?

They may unconsciously hold their breath and die.
Or their head may explode.
I think. I've only been able to glean that it is potentially very dangerous.

 

[kfsone]

I think we'll need to disagree there - I do see issues with an external view, as most people do. And where the arguments typically are, is how serious these issues are, and/or how to solve them. Clearly you're an an extreme end of the scale, but it doesn't mean other people don't have some valid concerns IMHO. And to dismiss people's comments (so strongly) IMHO is not wise.

Anyway, personally I feel an external view can sit very happily in the game with just a few simple nerfs. But at the moment my concern is, does FD agree?

I'm not dismissing them, I'm just pointing out how and why they are wrong, and that their arguments are based in games and on objections that just don't apply here.

What you seem to have missed is that I'm also one of the folks that doesn't want 3rd person. Go ahead. Take a moment to re-read these two paragraphs a couple more times.

Ok?

You're behaving as though the 3rd-person decriers are making rational arguments rather than just killing time in the forums by waving old, pointless flags and rattling dull, rusty sabres, because they're afraid if they put their teeth on the bedside table the termites might get 'em.

3rd person view in this game affects balance the way being left handed or right handed does, the way having color blind options does. That is: It doesn't.

There are some things Frontier could do that would screw it up, but the only people they would actually affect are hardcore players in the first place.

There's absolutely zero reason for compromise.

So don't.

Put 3rd person in the game and make that available in the default mode. We're already not doing the Eve "single universe for all" thing, so let us 1st person hardcore types play in our own corner with other 1st person hardcore types.

Boom. Successful game that caters to the masses by hard-core dev types like DB so we know there's going to be ongoing, healthy support for grognards like me.

As opposed to an ultra-niche game that requires you to be qualifiable as a fighter pilot IRL and charges a monthly subscription fee of both-********s and 9 pints of blood.

 

[kfsone]

But kfsone, what about the potentially fatal breaks in immersion?

Do you have any idea what it may do to someone who can't help themselves from pushing the 3rd person button but has not yet mentally prepared themselves to see the view change from inside the cockpit to viewing their own ship from the void of space ?

They may unconsciously hold their breath and die.
Or their head may explode.
I think. I've only been able to glean that it is potentially very dangerous.

I'm told that it can cause a male's wee-thingy to fall off. It's how women are made!

 

[Patrick_68000]

External view, could be a commercialized extension ?

 

[NeilF]

External view, could be a commercialized extension ?

Well, all the arguments for/against remain none-the-less. And if it is possible to offer it, it would seem a bit of a below the belt money grab to make peope pay for it IMHO.

 

[CATPAIN KIRK]

The only way I could imagine it being implemented would be as follows:

Players can buy a set of sensor drones and launch them. The drones pick up data and once back at the station, people can edit the material just as they please, free viewing angles, range and all.

Any ad-hoc 3rd person camera I've seen is gamebreaking as it's close to a wall-hack and renders aspects of cockpit construction entirely pointless.

 

[NeilF]

The only way I could imagine it being implemented would be as follows:

Players can buy a set of sensor drones and launch them. The drones pick up data and once back at the station, people can edit the material just as they please, free viewing angles, range and all.

While I'm sure that a lot of people would love such a feature, I also suspect a lot of people want an external view want it simply to better see what's happening now. ie: They're leaving a station and see a group of unusual ships coming in with a beautiful sunrise over a nearby planet. Flick to external view to better view/enjoy it.

Any ad-hoc 3rd person camera I've seen is gamebreaking as it's close to a wall-hack and renders aspects of cockpit construction entirely pointless.

I'd suggest this is not so much of any issue in a space sim. ie: There's no wall's to see around generally. Space is generally... well space. Of course there's arguments along the lines of being able to see around asteroids and the like, but I see these as pretty minor issues myself.


Now add to this an external view could take a few seconds to enter/leave, and lose you all scanner and other systems - So you're probably running at a disadvantage in most ways. ie: A fleet of pirates jump in, and as you can't see you're scanner, you're none-the-wiser.

I'd also suggest anyone with an Oculus or Track-IR would have a far better visual FOV advantage than any external view correctly nerfed would add. IMHO.

 

[CATPAIN KIRK]

.... simply to better see what's happening now. ie: They're leaving a station and see a group of unusual ships coming in with a beautiful sunrise over a nearby planet. Flick to external view to better view/enjoy it.

That's the exploit I was aiming to prevent with my suggestion. 3rd person allows you to see things that you wouldn't see otherwise. If you want to enjoy an interesting view, pop out your sensor drones and watch it later after docking.

I'd suggest this is not so much of any issue in a space sim. ie: There's no wall's to see around generally. Space is generally... well space. Of course there's arguments along the lines of being able to see around asteroids and the like, but I see these as pretty minor issues myself.


Now add to this an external view could take a few seconds to enter/leave, and lose you all scanner and other systems - So you're probably running at a disadvantage in most ways. ie: A fleet of pirates jump in, and as you can't see you're scanner, you're none-the-wiser.

I'd also suggest anyone with an Oculus or Track-IR would have a far better visual FOV advantage than any external view correctly nerfed would add. IMHO.

Well - I use triple screens and TrackIR and of course I have a better FoV. I wouldn't see what's wrong with that - if I only have a bicycle, I can hardly complain that most cars run faster.
However it doesn't allow me to magically gaze around asteroids or through the bottom of my cockpit, which 3rd person does.

Imho, the desire to watch beautiful sceneries is perfectly valid and could be achieved by the system I mentioned. Watching around asteroids and throgh the cockpits bottom is not.

 

[NeilF]

Imho, the desire to watch beautiful sceneries is perfectly valid and could be achieved by the system I mentioned. Watching around asteroids and throgh the cockpits bottom is not.

Well, now you're moving the goal posts. If you want to take that approach, it's not a huge leap of faith to suggest a single drone would permit you to achieve an external view in any/all directions. So we can't play the "not realistic card" I'm afraid.

So it all surely comes down to game play (balance), which is fair enough:-
1) There's simply the fact (IMHO), lots of people want an external view (IMHO) to enjoy the moment (not play competitively).
2) I still don't believe there's a significant issue of "looking around things". The only example that seems to come up over and over is hiding behind an asteroid and having a greater FOV in external view, to 'see around it'. This of course is entirely true, but it, (a) seems a very niche case, (b) comes at a heavy price - ie: Someone is strolling up behind you, and you don't even notice cos you don't have a scanner shown?
3) Any use of external view could easily come at a cost. As mentioned no hud/scanner. A time delay entering/leaving. A controlled pan speed, so looking from front to back might be slower than from within the cockpit etc.

Personally, I still don't see any real deal breakers with external view. ie: It can be offered with a few simple nerfs, and not give any true combat advantage - Quite the opposite most likely.

 

[CATPAIN KIRK]

2) I still don't believe there's a significant issue of "looking around things". The only example that seems to come up over and over is hiding behind an asteroid and having a greater FOV in external view, to 'see around it'. This of course is entirely true, but it, (a) seems a very niche case, (b) comes at a heavy price - ie: Someone is strolling up behind you, and you don't even notice cos you don't have a scanner shown?

Actually, that is a minor concern althoughg by the looks of it, most combat seems to take place around asteroid fields and structures, where it is an advantage.

My main concern would be cockpit construction and tradeoffs associated with it.

If I want a well armored cockpit, I'll have limited vision which is a tradeoff I'll have to make in order to be well protected.
If I want to see what's underneath, I could go for a ship that has a cockpit with a glass floor instead of one made of titanium, resulting in the pilot ending up far more vulnerable.
Same goes for rear vision: I could go for an elevated full glass bubble canopy like e.g. the P51s, which will allow for good surround vision but will leave me vulnerable to be shot in the back of the head or I could go for something like the Hurricanes, offering better rear protection but impairing my rear vision significantly.

Third person view would negate that entire aspect completely.

Should realtime third person view be implemented, it should have severe drawbacks like: Camera drone taking a minute to launch and dock, having an extremely hot signature, no sensors, no ship controls when it's out, limited speed so the drone can keep up and more...

 

[Titus Balls]

I have an idea - can the client record the network packets? If it can, it could record a game for you - and FD could release the tool they use to make videos - and you can do external views - full control of the camera - of the recordings.

By recording the network packets, it can replay them and also record them to you tube with your camera settings.

I'd love to see a tool like that anyway.

 

[CATPAIN KIRK]

I have an idea - can the client record the network packets? If it can, it could record a game for you - and FD could release the tool they use to make videos - and you can do external views - full control of the camera - of the recordings.

By recording the network packets, it can replay them and also record them to you tube with your camera settings.

I'd love to see a tool like that anyway.

That's what I had in mind with my proposal except mine would be within the game when docked. Your idea sounds good, but a system like that might be vulnerable to third party programs reading the packets and making the data available during flight on a secondary screen.

 

[NeilF]

Third person view would negate that entire aspect completely.

OK... Two comparisons with the suggestion you want to look up above you and down below you.
1) In Cockpit - You look up (instantly). Pitch your craft forwards 90 degrees (taking 1-2 second?) and look. Done.
2) In suggested Exterior View - You enter exterior view, taking 4-5 seconds. Look up and down (taking 2-3 seconds) depending on permitted speed of panning/rotation. Exit exterior view taking 4-5 seconds.

Now, to me, the suggestion exterior view is some uber trump to cockpit FOV doesn't quite stick. We'll not even mention the lack of HUD/scanner (& flight controls) for 8-10 seconds added to the stack of nerfs to exterior view?

 

[Nomadski]

I wish I had something to make video recording a bit easier! Top of the canopy shooting is alright, but is unneccesarily difficult for precise shots.

Also, and exterior "spinnable and zoomable" view is highly desirable, just for seeing how my ships look against backdrops of space or objects.

Ofc I understand the problems with implementing this and maintaining a forced gameplay focus on interior POV.

I just want an film editor mode ala Driver.

 

[Eleuth]

I'm sorry, 112 pages of posts to read is to much.
So no doubt everything is said

Nevertheless my opinion:
An external view in space is nice but can interfere with the gameplay. So I can understand why people don't want it.

But an external view in stations and on planets I would love to see. The possibility to look freely around in a station would be great.

 

[CATPAIN KIRK]

OK... Two comparisons with the suggestion you want to look up above you and down below you.
1) In Cockpit - You look up (instantly). Pitch your craft forwards 90 degrees (taking 1-2 second?) and look. Done.
2) In suggested Exterior View - You enter exterior view, taking 4-5 seconds. Look up and down (taking 2-3 seconds) depending on permitted speed of panning/rotation. Exit exterior view taking 4-5 seconds.

Now, to me, the suggestion exterior view is some uber trump to cockpit FOV doesn't quite stick. We'll not even mention the lack of HUD/scanner (& flight controls) for 8-10 seconds added to the stack of nerfs to exterior view?

I think You are missing the point.

If I want to look up, I do that by moving my head and I can do that within ~300 ms. If I want to look down, it takes me over twelve times as long on the most agile ship.

If I use 3rd person, I can look above and below my ship as well as peaking beyond any physical object at the same time without any delay and moving my ship.

Actually, your post clarified that there shouldn't be any realtime third person mode available at all.

After action positional data might be great for some videos and analyses though.

 

[Tek]

I am too late too vote and had mixed feelings (mostly against this) at first. But now I want to see what my ship looks like from the outside, so I would absolutely vote to be able to activate an outside view Also it would be cool if it could work when docked.

+1 for 3rd person view.

 

[NeilF]

I think You are missing the point.

If I want to look up, I do that by moving my head and I can do that within ~300 ms. If I want to look down, it takes me over twelve times as long on the most agile ship.

If I use 3rd person, I can look above and below my ship as well as peaking beyond any physical object at the same time without any delay and moving my ship.

Let's explore your scenario - Say you're in battle and want to look up and down to see if there's anything there?

In Cockpit
As per your suggestion - Looking up = 300ms... Looking down, a questionable 3-4 seconds? (Remember you only have to pitch down 90 degrees or roll 180 or less)?

But let's go with your suggestions, so that's job done (we've looked up and down) in under 4 seconds.

External View
With the suggested external view, you press the external view key, and after a 4-5 second transition effect you're in external view, looking forwards. So instantly, we're behind?

Now let's continue... The angle change could be made a sedate speed, so changing up 90 degrees could take 2 seconds for example? So to look up and down will take countless more seconds.

Now we want to lock onto a target and fire? Press the external view key, and after the suggested 4-5 second transition effect we're finally back in the cockpit again.

Time taken? = 14-15 seconds or there abouts?



With your example/scenario, external view seems to offer no real advantage IMHO. And given no scanners/hud as well, I'd suggest the opposite.

 

[Rog]

I know this thread is rather long now, but for those just reading the last posts, and to dispel any wrong impressions, this is what nobody* wants - an arcade mode like these:

We just want a simple external view to enjoy the glorious visuals in the game. We do not want 'advantage in combat'.

The many and varied suggested handicaps/nerfs are to assuage the naysayers, some of whom are so entrenched that apparently nothing will change their mind. They are of course entitled to their view.

On the other hand, the people who would like to enjoy the external visuals seem pretty willing to accept a large number of viewer 'nerfs'.

Can we remember that the game will be exploring, trading, wandering about, whatever... and multiplayer combat. Much of which will be with NPCs.

It isn't Call of Duty in Space.

Have I said we really don't want an arcade God's-eye view like Freelancer?



*Apologies if you are the 0.7% that would like a Freelancer type view. This is never going to happen though.