External View [A definitive discussion]

[Jack Booted Thug]

That's an interesting point you raise. Its almost as if FD are determined to leave the old school way of doing things behind (in regards to a players perception) and are embracing new techniques and technologies that actually internalize your perception of the world you're in, immerse and surround you within the game instead of the older traditional done-to-death external views that games for the last two decades have offered.

If we know anything about David Braben its that he likes to do things differently and embrace new ways of doing things. Pushing the boundaries of what's possible.

I'm not saying both can't co-exist, but if I was a betting man I would say FDs priority will be down the internal VR route over the older external 3PV route when it comes to this aspect of the gameworld they're creating and our perception of it.

Exactly.

Often things that are new and innovative are not readily accepted by people who cannot perceive the end result.

If Frontier were to introduce an external view which is disconnected from some kind of cockpit mechanic they would be completely undermining this innovative approach.

David Braben and Ian Bell were criticised in the early days for forgoing the generally accepted approach 3 Lives and 5-10 minutes a game. Many people simply could not conceive of doing something different. I think it is the same with many of the people who are perturbed at the idea of a lack of an external view of their ship.

Instead of embracing Frontier's innovation and thinking outside the box many people want to pull Frontier back into the box.

If people want to view the beauty of space unhindered by a HUD or cockpit then why not think up solutions "outside the box" which do not conflict with Frontier's innovative intent?

We could have a "photojournalistic" role in Elite Dangerous. We could have a special kind of ship for taking photos, a ship designed with a fish bowl style cockpit unobstructed by struts. A ship which can have various cameras deployed on its hardpoints. There are all sorts of solutions which would add to the game without restricting true innovation.

I don't simply want Elite: Dangerous to be a beautifully rendered open sandbox with lots to do. I want Elite: Dangerous to be an experience of extraordinary proportions.

Star Citizen will be a sandbox with lots to do I am sure. I expect it will be beautiful and fun. Yet it certainly is not going to be a "you in your ship" experience as they are just rehashing and refining things within the confines of the old box. I am not trying to run down Star Citizen, it is what it is and I am a backer, it just isn't as innovative as Elite: Dangerous, not even close.

That is just my opinion on these things.

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

Exactly.

Often things that are new and innovative are not readily accepted by people who cannot perceive the end result.

If Frontier were to introduce an external view which is disconnected from some kind of cockpit mechanic they would be completely undermining this innovative approach.

David Braben and Ian Bell were criticised in the early days for forgoing the generally accepted approach 3 Lives and 5-10 minutes a game. Many people simply could not conceive of doing something different. I think it is the same with many of the people who are perturbed at the idea of a lack of an external view of their ship.

Instead of embracing Frontier's innovation and thinking outside the box many people want to pull Frontier back into the box.

Yeah, that's the 'vibe' I got from devs ever since OR support was so enthusiastically announced as they seem quick to talk about OR and almost reluctant to mention anything third person.

I think I remember seeing someone mentioning Elite Dangerous is going to be one of the flagship products that pushes the Oculus Rift experience.

If people want to view the beauty of space unhindered by a HUD or cockpit then why not think up solutions "outside the box" which do not conflict with Frontier's innovative intent?

We could have a "photojournalistic" role in Elite Dangerous. We could have a special kind of ship for taking photos, a ship designed with a fish bowl style cockpit unobstructed by struts. A ship which can have various cameras deployed on its hardpoints. There are all sorts of solutions which would add to the game without restricting true innovation.

Nice suggestion - and it marries the core concept of the game (you the pilot, not you the ship) to a way of getting those external visuals some crave without breaking from that core concept.

 

[CaptainSodom]

Exactly.

Often things that are new and innovative are not readily accepted by people who cannot perceive the end result.

If Frontier were to introduce an external view which is disconnected from some kind of cockpit mechanic they would be completely undermining this innovative approach.

David Braben and Ian Bell were criticised in the early days for forgoing the generally accepted approach 3 Lives and 5-10 minutes a game. Many people simply could not conceive of doing something different. I think it is the same with many of the people who are perturbed at the idea of a lack of an external view of their ship.

Instead of embracing Frontier's innovation and thinking outside the box many people want to pull Frontier back into the box.

How is lack of external view innovative? We've had FPSs since early 90s, and numerous space sim games without external views. We've had 3rd person shooters and numerous space shooters with external views. The above is not an argument against external view. We have games which mix both.

Once again, you and some others are constructing an alternate future which ignores 21st century technology and developments made in the following centuries, and more relevantly, limits the fun for the people who want to enjoy the view unobstructed by cockpit or who want to take screenshots with their ship in them to show off the graphics. Judging by this very thread it is a sizeable portion of the player base.

Most importantly, if you don't like external view, don't use it. You're not losing anything by having an external view; you can enjoy your game the way you want it, while others will get to enjoy theirs the way they want it.

 

[Robert Maynard]

21st century technology

As an aside, these look like they will fall foul of the new FAA rules on camera drones, if there can be a realtime view from the vehicle to the pilot....

 

[CaptainSodom]

As an aside, these look like they will fall foul of the new FAA rules on camera drones, if there can be a realtime view from the vehicle to the pilot....

FAA? Don't care, I don't live in the US.

 

[Robert Maynard]

FAA? Don't care, I don't live in the US.

For some, the EU is worse with respect to regulation.... Who knows what the EU view on camera drones is.

 

[Slone]

What I would love more than an external view in real time, is the possibility to record your movement and actions and be able to play those back under any angle you wish, like what racing games offers. You wouldn't be able to use any external view during flight, but you could watch those recordings when docked for instance or maybe out of the game itself.

 

[mojonaut]

For some, the EU is worse with respect to regulation.... Who knows what the EU view on camera drones is.

The CAA does, http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=6204

I will continue to fly mine with FPV as long as I have a spotter

 

[Valkyrie]

The only exception would be some Arma 2 and 3 hardcore mods/servers which disable third person view entirely to create a truly immersive experience.

Or a truly annoying experience.

Third person existing and being optional (in ArmA), also not to be mistaken for external view (which is what this is about).

Instead of embracing Frontier's innovation and thinking outside the box many people want to pull Frontier back into the box.

If people want to view the beauty of space unhindered by a HUD or cockpit then why not think up solutions "outside the box" which do not conflict with Frontier's innovative intent?

I feel that buzzwords and fallacies are being overused here.. First person is not innovative or thinking outside the box. Many things are being reused from previous iterations of the franchise, I see no good reason not to reemploy external view option. If you don't want to use such a feature, you do not have to, and therefore wont ruin your desired experience.

 

[MrVibrating]

Or a truly annoying experience.

Third person existing and being optional (in ArmA), also not to be mistaken for external view (which is what this is about).



I feel that buzzwords and fallacies are being overused here.. First person is not innovative or thinking outside the box. Many things are being reused from previous iterations of the franchise, I see no good reason not to reemploy external view option. If you don't want to use such a feature, you do not have to, and therefore wont ruin your desired experience.

Exactly.. JBT's being a little disengenuous framing the issue in terms of "the beauty of space unhindered by a HUD or cockpit" - internal camera views could offer this. External view is necessary because your ship looks way cool, and against a stunning backdrop looks even cooler. Add in some memorable battle scars, damage and various customisations and it'll be awsome to drool over. Drooling is a natural bodily function and nothing to be ashamed of. VR should cater to our base desires not deny them - we've got RL for that..

 

[CATPAIN KIRK]

Most importantly, if you don't like external view, don't use it. You're not losing anything by having an external view; you can enjoy your game the way you want it, while others will get to enjoy theirs the way they want it.

Whilst I would completely agree with this if this was pure singleplayer game, there actually is a thing you lose if you don't like third person and don't use it as a result: Fights against almost anyone using it.

This has been stated over and over again, but I understand it's a bit much to ask to go through hundreds of posts, so once more:

It allows people to look beyond objects you couldn't look beyond from the cockpits perspective. Depending on the implementation (locked/unlocked third person camera and zoom), it allows people to see what's behind their ship, allows people to see what's underneath them which would be obscured by the cockpit floor if it's not made of glass, rendering the entire aspect of cockipt construction and associated damage models completely pointless etc...etc...

Multiplayer games enabling both either have different game modes (e.g. warthunder) or different servers types (e.g. the Arma Series), completely separating third person from first person players. Otherwise, 3rd person offers too much of an unrealistic advantage over 1st to leave the latter viable.

People suggested nerfs to realtime third person (timers, no sensors etc...etc..) but imho it would still be heavily abused.

A positional recording system you can later use to watch events and edit videos after having docked would be a nice thing to have, though.

 

[CaptainSodom]

People suggested nerfs to realtime third person (timers, no sensors etc...etc..) but imho it would still be heavily abused.

We can't and shouldn't eliminate popular features just because some people will abuse them. Every single feature in a game will be abused if at all possible, so removing every such feature altogether is a terrible way to design games. A better approach is to disable access to sensors or whatnot, so that external view is balanced between the fun of being able to admire the visuals and the un-fun of a few people abusing it for nefarious purposes.

 

[SAB380]

"Its a design decision so should not be questioned"

......no, I disagree. Design decisions can be questioned.
That is the entire point of the DDF and the alpha and beta testing.
To say that a design decision should not be question is just simply....wrong.



I still say my compromise doesn't break anyones immersion and doesn't offer any gameplay advantage.

 

[Dante80]

"Its a design decision so should not be questioned"

......no, I disagree. Design decisions can be questioned.
That is the entire point of the DDF and the alpha and beta testing.
To say that a design decision should not be question is just simply....wrong.

I still say my compromise doesn't break anyones immersion and doesn't offer any gameplay advantage.

Generally speaking, a design decision means that whether you like it or not, the guys actually making the game have made a decision and are going for it. Of course you can question it all you like, but its not going to change. So you either adapt or leave, there is no other option. This game is not made by a committee...

Now for the external view feature set specifically, FDEV have said to us that it will probably come in a form that they are content with (like a different screen inside the cockpit so that it does not break 1pv, camera drones etc).

 

[SAB380]

Generally speaking, a design decision means that whether you like it or not, the guys actually making the game have made a decision and are going for it. Of course you can question it all you like, but its not going to change. So you either adapt or leave, there is no other option. This game is not made by a committee...

Generally speaking, the DDF, the alpha and beta phases and a discussion forum mean that whether you like it or not, people playing the game will give feedback and suggestions on things they'd like to see. Of course you can question why people would do so and claim that nothing is going to change, but that just makes you someone that contributes nothing. So you can either adapt or leave, there is no other option, since this forum is a discussion committee...

 

[Hewster]

Only just been made aware of this thread, and havn't got the time to read all the replies !

All I want to say to the dev team is please think about VR when you implement this 3rd person camera.

We don't want to be suddenly pulled from our cockpit into an external view of our ship, that would be very unsettling !!

If I could have a vote, I would say keep 1st person at all times, but an in cockpit screen would be cool, with selectable external cameras could be useful.

 

[CaptainSodom]

Here's an excellent reason why we need an external view.

 

[CATPAIN KIRK]

We can't and shouldn't eliminate popular features just because some people will abuse them. Every single feature in a game will be abused if at all possible, so removing every such feature altogether is a terrible way to design games. A better approach is to disable access to sensors or whatnot, so that external view is balanced between the fun of being able to admire the visuals and the un-fun of a few people abusing it for nefarious purposes.

It's not just some people abusing them, it's the complete lack of viability in first person as soon as magical out of body experiences are offered in realtime.

I fully understand the fun in watching the sights and I would want the option myself - after the action is over and I'm docked.



Lack of a HUD is not an issue - people will memorize the shortcuts they need or macro them.

Lack of a croshair isn't a problem either - I've played Skyrim survival mods for 760 hours, never used a crosshair and almost exclusively played as a ranged character in 3dvision surround (the crosshair is irritating in 3d).

It's no problem at all - you don't need a crosshair as long as you're sober enough to know where the middle of the screen is and can track where your shots go.

 

[CaptainSodom]

It's not just some people abusing them, it's the complete lack of viability in first person as soon as magical out of body experiences are offered in realtime.

For the nth time, if external view bothers you, don't use it.

I fully understand the fun in watching the sights and I would want the option myself - after the action is over and I'm docked.

Can't watch the stars and planets in the station. And there are no stations in deep space, where I'm going.

Lack of a croshair isn't a problem either - I've played Skyrim survival mods for 760 hours, never used a crosshair and almost exclusively played as a ranged character in 3dvision surround (the crosshair is irritating in 3d).

It's no problem at all - you don't need a crosshair as long as you're sober enough to know where the middle of the screen is and can track where your shots go.

Or just put a tiny tape dot on your screen, like all the cool kids quickscoping in CoD Wait, I don't play CoD

 

[CATPAIN KIRK]

For the nth time, if external view bothers you, don't use it.

Sorry - you misunderstood - not using it is not a solution. Read again.

I'm fine with an arcade mode, as long as characters and economics are completely separated from online play.

Can't watch the stars and planets in the station. And there are no stations in deep space, where I'm going.

Make that "after logging off"...

Or just put a tiny tape dot on your screen, like all the cool kids quickscoping in CoD Wait, I don't play CoD

I don't eat codfish or any fish categorically, nor do I play with them. Care to mention what you refer to?


[edit]: On a side note, there are better things than herrings or codfish to keep willy fed - some day you'll understand .