Elite Without PvP is Half a Game

[VR Murgle]

I prefer to play with people instead of against so as far as I'm concerned PvP is an obstacle to enjoying the full game and I wouldn't shed a single tear if it was removed entirely.

 

[DukeIronHand]

I prefer to play with people instead of against so as far as I'm concerned PvP is an obstacle to enjoying the full game and I wouldn't shed a single tear if it was removed entirely.

It does seem like an inordinate amount of angst, tears, and sweat, is expended for a type of play that, by all accounts, is a small percentage of the player base.

With that said I would like to see all players enjoying the game but perhaps Dev priorities can be reordered a bit under a "more bang for the buck" type of thinking and planning.

Should be a big enough galaxy for everyone to be having fun.

 

[dognosh]

This is a personal assessment.

For nearly a year after receiving the game as a gift, I played Solo, did the grinds, experienced PowerPlay, engineers and various developments.

Since late last year, I transitioned to Open and been there almost exclusively. Also, I accepted a wing membership invitation. This invite had been extended long ago but I didn't act on it, I wanted to "prove" I could reach certain levels so I could be a productive member.

Since joining the wing, the game has opened play and experience to a much wider horizon. I now meet people, talk about life, politics, ships, you know, what persons with a common interests do normally and we laugh. We also play.

The makeup of the wing is cosmopolitan, different levels of tech know-how, languages (I applaud all those countries across the pond on their education systems that routinely teach at least English, apart from their native languages), age levels, education and gaming skills. I have also observed that everyone I've met on my wing is obviously well-educated and intelligent and/or highly self-taught.

Our wing is Open play for the active members, there are some Pvt. Groups as well and I'm sure some are in Solo. However, it is Open I wish to address.

The following recently transpired all in Open as far as I observed.

A "war" developed between our wing another group, the reasons, though part of the conflict, are really not what brought this episode to life.

It was the marshaling of forces, the strategy developed for BGS operations, intelligence gathering, decision making, the actual operations which required effort and commitment, the cat and mouse between the two factions and of course, propaganda (trash talk, et al).

Both sides on patrol, working to wreak BGS havoc and loosen the holds of each others' system factions.

All this led to PvP skirmish at Tavgi yeterday, the sides were brought to battle and noble efforts were made by both sides.

It isn't my intent to crow about winning or cry about losing, here but to point out what the game is really about and the very large part PvP plays in the game.

Without PvP, the game is a cripple and not alive. As a player, you haven't experienced what the game provides if aren't part of a wing playing hide and seek in supercruise and trying to interdict each other.

You have the Fog of War, the missed comms, lost sightings and wake fixes, conning your ship, worrying that you will let your side down if you're not there for them when they need you.

Then there is dropping right into a combat zone, ships flying all around, cannon fire, lasers, fiery plasma balls rocketing past you. You look for a target, lock in and open fire.

You see your hits registering and shields failing, all the time listening for your mates as they call in sit reps, even though it's a game, the adrenaline rush is there.

Today's encounter lasted about 30 minutes from the initial hunt to the skirmish. That is a long time to be on edge. Perfection.

To my wing mates and our opponents, Ave, Vos Saluto!

Players, you have a choice over what you make of the game, but be assured, even with gankers and griefers and the growing pains that the game experiences, you are missing out on the real fun.

Excellent opinion for you, and glad you love it.
In my opinion you are wrong

 

[dfgqsb]

As a former Palcon member, I'm happy to see that there is still someone enjoying pvp in Palcon.
I'm now 100% into pvp and I gotta say, I like it over any other thing in this game now.
Just enjoy the pewpews!

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

all that matters if you enjoy the game, if in open in a PvP wing is what floats your boat then in ED you can have it.

I like to lone wolf it, with the odd bit of PwP thrown in... for the most part i can get that too..

win win right?

FWIW I have been playing 1 elite game or another (inc oolite) since 1984 and never felt i was only playing half a game..... whilst i admit the notion of flying against other players did cross my mind, for me personally, without massive changes it just does not work for me in Elite D... the game would have to be built around PvP balance at its core... and it isnt (and for that i am glad)

but again, to each their own. Fly safe CMDR (or fly dangerous if you prefer )

equally i like playing the GTA games.. but i do not touch to MP side of those either.

 

[VR Murgle]

It does seem like an inordinate amount of angst, tears, and sweat, is expended for a type of play that, by all accounts, is a small percentage of the player base.

With that said I would like to see all players enjoying the game but perhaps Dev priorities can be reordered a bit under a "more bang for the buck" type of thinking and planning.

Should be a big enough galaxy for everyone to be having fun.

OP was presenting his opinion I countered with my own merely to demonstrate his view wasn't universally shared within the community. I'm perfectly fine with PvPers enjoying themselves I just prefer them doing it in a way that does not conflict with the way I like to play the game.

 

[andrak]

To be in open is to be up against the biggest cheaters of engineering exploits and unlimited synthesised ammo.

It used to be a game of skill. Now, no thanks.

Even though FD may have plugged both these exploits I doubt they have the stones to remove exploited modules or punish cheaters. They will still be flying their God roll ships.

 

[DukeIronHand]

OP was presenting his opinion I countered with my own merely to demonstrate his view wasn't universally shared within the community. I'm perfectly fine with PvPers enjoying themselves I just prefer them doing it in a way that does not conflict with the way I like to play the game.

Sorry if my post left that impression with you.
Just adding my two cents to your post that I do not disagree with.

 

[Dirtbird]

What possible motivation is there for me to enter PvP in a ship that can be owned by lesser ships with god-like rolls (and with the exploit that has existed for months to boot)?

This game was a hell of a lot more fun before Engineers came along. At least it was down to pure piloting skills when it came to dog fights. Now its a matter of who wasted the most time grinding (or exploiting) this or that to build a ship that can handle anything in PvP. Personally Im not interested and haven't been in PvP for months. Just isn't worth it, and Im sure as hell not missing out on anything.

I arrived well after Engineers. I have moderately engineered ships. I don't have enough hours in the day to practice "git gud". The most you'll get out of me is "git outta here". Well then again, I might get cross and actually engage. Who knows, it might be fun.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

I might be wrong, but by now I think there must be a connection.

PvP Players are the only ones repeatedly (over and over and over and over again) advertising it with a sledgehammer. Like a broken vinyl record. Almost like insanity.

- BGS was mentioned... very ineffective when time is wasted on meaningless PvP instead of getting the job done. You're doing it wrong, but if the fun detours of PvP was worth it, well that's fine.
- PvP is fun? Good for you, enjoy the trip.

The "PvP logic" mistake? A few guys find it fun - need to tell the whole world (would be okay of course, nothing bad about reading about good experiences others have) - mistake part : false assessment "everyone needs to do it!".

Nope, nice try, you can sit down again.

PS.
I think I've found 30 or maybe even 40 spots of Volcanism so far...
Does it add to my Game? Sure does.
Do I feel the urge to tell everybody "you should do it, too"? Hell no.
Reason : It's definitely not for everybody. It's niche.

See the difference? PvP niche Players will never get it, though. They seem kinda "special" that way.

btw.... PwP for the win! (Player with Player).
Games with good PvP to them : #REF (too many to count). A dime a dozen.
Games with good PwP to them : ...not many

 

[A D]

For me its the whole enchilada. I play little P v P, but I'm glad its part of the game and that some players enjoy it. I want open to be filled with explorers, combatants, criminals, miners, traders... a busy place. Keep P v P, but not so it dominates. My concern is that the antics of some P v P players (and I'm not referring to the OP) seems to be keeping others away from open.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I have been in wings, I have been in groups, and I have played on my own.

They have all been good fun, but just because I play on my own doesn't mean I am missing out when playing in a group.

It is just a different experience and one which I thoroughly enjoy, and something I do not think of as half a game. Please don't push your opinion as a fact, as in a case like this it is all about what you like as an individual.

 

[StiTch]

I might be wrong, but by now I think there must be a connection.

PvP Players are the only ones repeatedly (over and over and over and over again) advertising it with a sledgehammer. Like a broken vinyl record. Almost like insanity.

Well that's interesting.

You wanna go do a tally of the number of "I hate PvP"/"I love PvE only"/"Give me Open PvE!"/"Had some unconsensual PvP, ban it all!" threads making noise, and compare it to the number of "I love PvP" threads?

Notably this one doesn't even have sledghammers...

Looks like the grief0rz have won the war. Salt is officially extractable with zero effort It's like you're queuing for it...

Spoiler

"Out the door, line on the left, one cross each..."

 

[VR Murgle]

Sorry if my post left that impression with you.
Just adding my two cents to your post that I do not disagree with.

I was a little unsure on how to interpret your post although I suspected you were on my "team" but I did feel the need to add a bit of nuance to my previous post.

 

[Rakaposhi]

if you play Solo, there is much left on the table.

That's a very subjective view. I may be reading your posts wrong, but it seems very much to me like you trying to convince those who don't want a PvP experience in their Elite to try Open anyway, because it worked for you. I'm glad you're enjoying yourself, but I know what I like in a game, and the fun you're describing isn't what I find fun. I enjoy PvP in other games. In Elite the death penalties are too severe for me (in terms of time spent to recover), and very often the death penalties are 10-20x more for some players than they are for others. That level of risk imbalance drives specific behaviours.

When I play solo, there's nothing I feel I'm missing.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

Well that's interesting.

You wanna go do a tally of the number of "I hate PvP"/"I love PvE only"/"Give me Open PvE!"/"Had some unconsensual PvP, ban it all!" threads making noise, and compare it to the number of "I love PvP" threads?

Notably this one doesn't even have sledghammers...

Looks like the grief0rz have won the war. Salt is officially extractable with zero effort It's like you're queuing for it...

Spoiler

"Out the door, line on the left, one cross each..."

http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/dvd/sony/MontyPython/MontyPython_4sm.jpg

Nah, nothing like that.

PvP is fine as a Gameplay Element, absolutely nothing wrong with that.
All I'm pointing out is the two (old) observations :
- PvP is the only element that's being frequently advertised as "everyone has to try/do it" (which is just an extremely basic logical fallacy)
- there's more the the Game than PvP, but you hardly ever see Players with focus on these aggressively advertise it over and over

Thus, I'm not against Players having their fun doing PvP of whatever flavor (even all the "troubled" parts of PvP, since they're a product of Frontier's Design Decisions(tm) and not the faults of individual Players).
Did Frontier massively damage their Product by making some extremely poor decisions or letting acklowledged-bad-decisions run rampant for way too long before making adjustments? Hell yes.
That's where they've build their Salt mines and factories. But that's another story already discussed to death elsewhere

PS.
Before I'd run out of Rebuys... Lakon, Gutamaya, Core Dynamics and Faulcon DeLacy would run out of spare parts to build and sell the Ships in their Shipyards.
No salt mining possible from me, not since a long time.
I don't see Players as any real Threat to Gameplay. That position is unreachable & reserved for Frontier itself. Arguably, they're the unchallenged king of the hill in that respect anyway. Them sitting on their Salt Throne and seem to enjoy it xD

If anything, maybe I'm missing the rare and meaningful component of PvP I guess (DB Quote).
Not much unlike I miss not flying over "just another differently colored heightmap when flying over Planets" (DB Quote).

Will I soon buzz another "differently colored heightmap" of a bigger Planet to find Volcanism, although it's "meaningless" in terms of the grand scheme of things just as well? Sure.
But you won't see me advertising it. (It'll be on a Planet I've buzzed countless times before and it'll be tedious. Very, very tedious. Just like PvP, I just do it "because I can" )

 

[Agony_Aunt]

ITT, someone suggests PvP has a high appeal for some Elite players, and that a bunch of others might like it if they really give it a try.

And then a bunch of people the usual suspects come to cry about PvP being too hard or unfun or something.

Nobody said its too hard (although it is grind inducing) and if its unfun for some, then that is normal, not everyone likes the same things.

I've tried to motiviate myself for PvP in ED, and i just can't. There is nothing in ED PvP that i find appealing. The engineering grind, the need to think about meta to compete. And every hour i spend in PvP or flying a PvP ship is an hour away from doing other things that's id rather do. I see no point mining or bounty hunting in a PvP capable ship. You go into a RES in a PvP capable ship, then its no wonder people complain the AI is easy. I love to experiment and try out different things, fly crazy ship builds, gimped ship builds, and that's going to get me killed in a PvP situation.

And one thing that seems to be a mistake in some PvPers heads, is that because some of us don't like PvP in ED, and see fundamental problems with PvP in ED, we don't like PvP. I really enjoy PvP games from time to time.

My first PvP game? Probably Wizard of Wor on the Atari 2600. Hmm... well, unless you want to count pong on the Colecovision I've been PvPing since before many of you young whippersnappers were even a glint in the milkman's eye, and still do. Just not in ED.

To put it another way, i find that PvP in ED sucks big time, and i can't understand those who make it the focus of their game. There are much better PvP games out there.

But for people like rroybes and others, if they enjoy it, fine, kudos to them. As long as its understood that for many, its pants, with a captial P.

 

[StiTch]

To put it another way, i find that PvP in ED sucks big time, and i can't understand those who make it the focus of their game. There are much better PvP games out there.

But for people like rroybes and others, if they enjoy it, fine, kudos to them. As long as its understood that for many, its pants, with a captial P.

Many of the PvP folks think the PvP circumstances suck.

But then again, a visit to the Exploration folks will tell you that many of the explorers are utterly sick of exploration (or the present lack of it). There are pages of well-constructed criticism and ignored suggestions by respected explorers such as Mengy, often with complete reason and explanation of the current inadequacies.

And yet, have you seen any noise or ethical pressure at all telling explorers they shouldn't be doing what they do? As I've just stated elsewhere I find it far more barmy that some people are happy to travel between the same two star systems to watch their credits go up, often without a financial goal to even persue. But I enjoy PvP despite its flaws, just like many explorers, and will work in any way I can to see it improved - like explorers.

 

[MarkAusten]

snip..

Without PvP, the game is a cripple and not alive. As a player, you haven't experienced what the game provides if aren't part of a wing playing hide and seek in supercruise and trying to interdict each other.

Which is fine if you like that kind of thing. If you detest it, as I do, then there would be nothing worse than the situation you describe.

Snip

Players, you have a choice over what you make of the game, but be assured, even with gankers and griefers and the growing pains that the game experiences, you are missing out on the real fun.

No I'm not, I'm playing exactly the game I wish to play and enjoy.

What you have described sounds like hell to me.

That's my personal assessment.

 

[Robert Maynard]

And yet, have you seen any noise or ethical pressure at all telling explorers they shouldn't be doing what they do?

.... probably not - because Explorers can, at most, incur a 10% loss on earnings (by selling data and getting the "First Discovered by" tag before someone else)....