"Beyond" free for Horizon owners - LEP musings

[Juniper]

QFT. The worst thing about Elite is the unfulfilled potential.

Would that not always be the case though, no matter what?

If every person on this forum wrote and released an Elite game, we'd have thousands of vastly different games on the market.

Sooner or later there comes a point when you either accept what E: D is and isn't, or you go and play something else.

 

[popuptoaster]

But what's your criteria for deciding whether you've had your money's worth? Is it purely emotional? I'm not sure that translates to financial transactions that well. At least, not for me.

I'll base it on my experiences with other games, not against going to the pub or cinema which are different experiences, I have been gaming since my dad walked in the front door with a Binatone console that had about 5 different versions of "Pong" on it back in the late '70's so i have enough experience with games to know when i feel i got a decent deal.

However, when i backed I was not expecting to get £200s worth or fun out of the game, i just wanted the game made in the first place and anything else would be a bonus, that feeling is going away though as the DDF becomes a distant memory and FD put more and more effort into other things the stuff we really wanted is slipping away with no clue from FD if any of it is ever goiung to be put in game.

 

[WR3ND]

First of all, LEP worries aren't really about LEP let's be honest, but about will FD complete their mission with ED and "make it whole" - space legs, atmospheric planets, and all.

...

In general, and maybe to an extent in this thread. That isn't really what I'd consider to be the main concerns raised in this thread though.

I don't consider myself to be a backer or investor in particular, just someone who bought the expansions in advance. So far this has proven to be a bad decision since after two years I still have nothing to show for the substantial extra money I paid (3 to 4 times the cost of Horizons at initial full release value), but of course we'll wait and see how things turn out.

My advice in general for everyone here would be to speak for themselves instead of others.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

That's rubbish, i have my monies worth when I feel that I've had my monies worth, I have way more hours in Skyrim for far less cost and even those games that i may have put a comparable amount of money in to have kept me happy for far longer, i have been playing World of Tanks since it first went live (back in what 2012 maybe?) and despite it's flaws it keeps me playing it.

The unfortunate thing is that i don't hate this game, i am just very disappointed that the original vision for it, as pitched to backers has become diluted and/or delayed so much that many of the original backers are becoming disillusioned, remember we are the guys who were doing stuff like sending FD pizzas while they worked late on beta changes and stuff, we don't hate FD or hate the game, we are feeling this way because we love what it COULD be.

We stopped to send pizzas because they kinda asked stop doing that.

I also don't believe it has been diluted or delayed for many players. Many people just want more, that's understandable, but to make ED more, it will take time.

No game will provide this from get go. It is not technically possible.

 

[Steve50]

The unfortunate thing is that i don't hate this game, i am just very disappointed that the original vision for it, as pitched to backers has become diluted and/or delayed so much that many of the original backers are becoming disillusioned, remember we are the guys who were doing stuff like sending FD pizzas while they worked late on beta changes and stuff, we don't hate FD or hate the game, we are feeling this way because we love what it COULD be.

I utterly agree! ED now is nothing like us kickstarters were promised back in 2012.

quite frankly if you had shown me back then how the game plays/feels today, there is NO WAY I would have bust a gut to raise the £200 I paid into it back then. no way, whatsoever. I'm sorry, sure ED is a fun game but it does not feel like Elite or even play like Elite and what, 4+ years of development and upgrades and to this day Frontier:Elite 2 is actually better than ED and more fun to play. that says a lot really.

 

[Juniper]

I'll base it on my experiences with other games, not against going to the pub or cinema which are different experiences, I have been gaming since my dad walked in the front door with a Binatone console that had about 5 different versions of "Pong" on it back in the late '70's so i have enough experience with games to know when i feel i got a decent deal.

However, when i backed I was not expecting to get £200s worth or fun out of the game, i just wanted the game made in the first place and anything else would be a bonus, that feeling is going away though as the DDF becomes a distant memory and FD put more and more effort into other things the stuff we really wanted is slipping away with no clue from FD if any of it is ever goiung to be put in game.

I had the same Binatone console "TV game". The football / hockey was awesome.

You judge them as different experiences, even though pubs and cinema come under the category of "entertainment" to me in terms of the household budget. That's fine. I just find it easier to judge things that way, as it makes me feel better about how much I put down on this game.

And the DDF was a waste, sadly. I've always said that the game we helped design back then was brilliant - I really wish someone would develop that one day. What a game that would be!

 

[popuptoaster]

We stopped to send pizzas because they kinda asked stop doing that.

I also don't believe it has been diluted or delayed for many players. Many people just want more, that's understandable, but to make ED more, it will take time.

No game will provide this from get go. It is not technically possible.

Agreed, we knew we wouldn't get everything straight away, but FD could easily have worked through a list generated from what was pitched on the Kickstarter and what was discussed in the Design and Discussion Forum and informed people what was going into the game, what was not and what was undecided and then worked their way through that list with their updates.

Instead we hear almost nothing about future plans for months and then they pop up with something no one had mentioned such as CQC for instance!

You have to understand that backers gave them money based on what we were told the game was going to be, yes it takes time, but at least get the promised stuff in the game and get it all working right before you start adding in ambitious things like Thargiods that i bet something like 90% of the players have never even seen!

 

[bitstorm]

The number of people that own an LEP are moot to whether FD should honour the agreement with them - FD sold a product license, money changed hands, now FD are bound to honour that license - to do otherwise would be a breach of contract of sale.

[???]

Where have I said they wouldn't.

I am literally just asking if anyone has an idea of how many LEP owners there might be.

 

[Juniper]

You have to understand that backers gave them money based on what we were told the game was going to be, yes it takes time, but at least get the promised stuff in the game and get it all working right before you start adding in ambitious things like Thargiods that i bet something like 90% of the players have never even seen!

I dunno, Obsidian Ant just surpassed 100K subscribers...

 

[popuptoaster]

Kind of says it all really that I'm sat here in front of 2 grands worth of PC, a HOTAS and an Oculus rift and I'm on the forum arguing rather than kicking back in my 'Conda.

 

[bitstorm]

I don't know how many LEP owners there are, but if I'm reading the financial report correctly (and I'm no expert so please feel free to check it yourself), the deferred income from LEP sales was valued at over one million pounds for the fiscal year ending May 31, 2017.

Page 45 of FD's latest annual report:

https://frontier-drupal.s3-eu-west-...eleases/financial/FrontierAR17-FullReport.pdf

So the 8,000 estimate seems like it may be in the ballpark.

 

[Javert]

So the 8,000 estimate seems like it may be in the ballpark.

No - the real number will be larger than 8000.

The deferred income is, to keep it fairly simple under accounting rules, the amount of money that FD have kept aside in case they have to issue a refund to LEP buyers for non delivery. It is money that they have not yet counted as true sales revenue.

Therefore it is not the total value of all LEP sold. It is the amount at risk if they fail to deliver any more paid content.

They already delivered one paid expansion to all LEP buyers from the first release period (original ED game). They didn’t deliver any further expansion to anyone who bought the LEP during the Horizons sale period, but presumably they would still only have to refund the difference between the full price Horizons game at that time, and the LEP.

Point being, you can’t just divide $1m by the LEP price to get the number of LEP owners.

If I remember correctly, there are some notes in one of their previous financial reports about how they are calculating deferred income on LEPs, but I don’t have time to go searching for it right now. It could be that they are releasing LEP money to the P&L purely based on passing of time, but this might be risky given that they are now almost 2 years since they released any LEP eligible paid content.

Anyway, previous FD posts here indicate that they will release further paid content in 2018 other than the “Beyond” updates.

 

[Montague]

No - the real number will be larger than 8000.

The deferred income is, to keep it fairly simple under accounting rules, the amount of money that FD have kept aside in case they have to issue a refund to LEP buyers for non delivery. It is money that they have not yet counted as true sales revenue.

Therefore it is not the total value of all LEP sold. It is the amount at risk if they fail to deliver any more paid content.

They already delivered one paid expansion to all LEP buyers from the first release period (original ED game). They didn’t deliver any further expansion to anyone who bought the LEP during the Horizons sale period, but presumably they would still only have to refund the difference between the full price Horizons game at that time, and the LEP.

Point being, you can’t just divide $1m by the LEP price to get the number of LEP owners.

If I remember correctly, there are some notes in one of their previous financial reports about how they are calculating deferred income on LEPs, but I don’t have time to go searching for it right now. It could be that they are releasing LEP money to the P&L purely based on passing of time, but this might be risky given that they are now almost 2 years since they released any LEP eligible paid content.

Anyway, previous FD posts here indicate that they will release further paid content in 2018 other than the “Beyond” updates.

I'm not an accountant, so please be gentle if I totally get this wrong, but a good guesstimate might be in the neighborhood of 50,000 LEP holders.

Can't find it now, but I remember reading that money from the LEPs would be released annually over time to pay for ongoing development of the expansions we'd be getting. The official plan goes through 2022, so call that a 6 year development plan.

Let's round down the deferred income for the latest fiscal year to 1,000,000 pounds. Divide that by 120 pounds charged for a LEP and you get 8,333. Multiply that by 6 and that would be 49,998 LEPs. Because the LEP money is being released one sixth at a time.

Extremely rough numbers, though, and I may very well be conceptualizing this wrong. Also, that's just accounting for the LEPs sold two years ago; I understand LEPs were also dispensed in the Kickstarter and that would also affect the guesstimate.

---CORRECTION---

I got a private message showing how I got this all wrong, so never mind. As I said, I'm no accountant.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I had the same Binatone console "TV game". The football / hockey was awesome.

You judge them as different experiences, even though pubs and cinema come under the category of "entertainment" to me in terms of the household budget. That's fine. I just find it easier to judge things that way, as it makes me feel better about how much I put down on this game.

And the DDF was a waste, sadly. I've always said that the game we helped design back then was brilliant - I really wish someone would develop that one day. What a game that would be!

I had a binatone too. The beauty of it was it had a squash game you could play single player....(even then the Devs saw the importance of providing for the lone wolf

As for the DDF I wish either FD would officially come out and say they are going to go back to the DDF and make best efforts to bring more featured out or officially come out and say it is no longer relevant.
Every time I see a thread with suggestions about features (often already covered in DDF) and sometimes see posts from FD that make it sound like they have never even seen the DDF it makes me

FD does not need to listen to ideas from us. They already have a treasure trove

 

[amigacooke]

As for the DDF I wish either FD would officially come out and say they are going to go back to the DDF and make best efforts to bring more featured out or officially come out and say it is no longer relevant.
Every time I see a thread with suggestions about features (often already covered in DDF) and sometimes see posts from FD that make it sound like they have never even seen the DDF it makes me

FD does not need to listen to ideas from us. They already have a treasure trove

It may be that FDev recognise that they have a radically different player base now to that which existed when the DDF was in operation.

 

[Eymerich]

It may be that FDev recognise that they have a radically different player base now to that which existed when the DDF was in operation.

And at the beginning?

No, it looks to me the DDf was a bright idea just to.... get our moneys...

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I dunno, Obsidian Ant just surpassed 100K subscribers...

Up until recently OA was vocal about the direction of the game as well. Of course it could easily be his fears were allayed when FD took him, kerrash and some others behind the veil ... But OTOH with all the best will in the world it is harder to remain objective when you become friendly with the folk you are critiquing

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

It may be that FDev recognise that they have a radically different player base now to that which existed when the DDF was in operation.

That it pretty cynical.... But you could be right.
Milk one cow dry with one game then bait and switch to get money from others who want a different game.
I hope not .

Remember that notion about using KSer to make sure there was interest in the specific game they pitched, one which a major publisher would not let go and would want to add in all the generic bumpf where as DB wanted to make the game HE wanted (which one would think was the design decisions they made)

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

It may be that FDev recognise that they have a radically different player base now to that which existed when the DDF was in operation.

About ideas not being shown up in DDF but appearing in the game - I remember quite clearly FD saying they won't ask input on everyhing.

As for DDF not sure I follow...they have done lots of bits and pieces from it. It does not always appear to be so, but NPC characters and lot of work around them seem to be picked up from DDF discussion. Passengers are also quite close to first iteration of DDF.

So I don't know...I think DDF is still considered a source from FD. Somethings things obviously got overruled and we pushed back. That's why we do feedback on betas.

So call me naive or optimistic, but I think lot of core things in DDF will continue to influence design.

 

[Steve50]

And at the beginning?

No, it looks to me the DDf was a bright idea just to.... get our moneys...

Ain't that the damn truth. Talk about "bait and switch".
Man, I still feel dumb for believing Braben in all those kickstarter videos. (it did teach me a lesson though and to this day I've not backed another kickstarter even though I saw several I wanted to)