Beyond 3.0 - C&P and Wing missions

[-VR- Max Factor]

If you have a mission that asks for NanoBreakers I promise you it'll be asking for more than you get as a cargo reward for some *other* mission. You're still going to have to find a place to buy Nanobreakers. It's not a bonus.

Also, did you notice that there aren't any cargo rewards of slaves, low-temp diamonds, palladium, evac shelters, animal meat, etc? For some reason the cargo rewards always consist of weird obscure tech items which, once upon a time, were required in engineering recipes. But I'm sure that's all a coincidence and that cargo rewards are 100% a valid idea all on their own and not at all an artifact of a development dead end.

Yeah I now, but as stated that is the easy one to balance compared to materials.

 

[Kaocraft]

Well this is a good start in any event? Probably late to make big changes to the Q1 update. But if they have measuring metrics on which missions people are actually taking I am sure the preference for these new wing missions, even in solo, will quickly become evident. I am sure FD will take this data into account going forward and do the right thing. Also, us veterans will prefer these wing missions but I can see new players still preferring the smaller and simpler ones as they start out? In any event, this is a huge step forward to the missions system; I cannot wait for the beta!

If they don't do it now they'l never do it. We all know this. If necessary I'd rather they delay the update (or delay this one part of the update) and do it right the first time. Wing missions should have been in 1.2 and are overdue by almost three years. We can wait another six months and actually have something good and real and done properly. "Placeholders" hold their places forever. It's not a good trend.

 

[SpaceScania]

If they don't do it now they'l never do it. We all know this. If necessary I'd rather they delay the update (or delay this one part of the update) and do it right the first time. Wing missions should have been in 1.2 and are overdue by almost three years. We can wait another six months and actually have something good and real and done properly. "Placeholders" hold their places forever. It's not a good trend.

Even though the first few years of the game maybe didn't turn out the way some hoped I see real momentum here. I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and for sure am going to really enjoy these mission changes. They are moving in the right direction!

 

[Lucifera Danzig]

We can wait another six months and actually have something good and real and done properly.

All the stuff that's packed into this one update, and you want to hold it up over commodity awards? Nobody is going to want to wait for six months for anything, let alone that one small thing. The amount of extra work would not be worth the extra outrage and impatience from the rest of the community over such a delay and more doomsayers claiming the delay was due to "lazy devs" or "FDev doesn't care" or other such nonsense.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

You could dump the cargo reward option altogether and increase your balancing productivity by 20%. Nobody wants Nanobreakers.

Sure, because there's no way FD could introduce other type of rare goods rewards besides Engineer goods.

Seriously, think at least few steps further.

 

[wstephenson]

On the topic of porting missions and not taking something away... Adam, please can I highlight the "Founder or Elite" missions that didn't get ported into the new mission system that arrived with Horizons.
Can we have them back please?

Be careful what you wish for, Adam may just decide to use the new functionality to bash out a 'Bring 1000000 tonnes of Jaques Quintenian Still to Jameson Memorial' Friday afternoon special .

 

[Vingtetun]

Planetary combat missions, right now they can be completed in a wing assuming that every wingmate has the same mission but it would be easier if it was a wing mission to start with.

Dominic - I second the above - the base assaults as a wing mission would be fantastic. +++ rated bases have formed a good part of our events shenanigans over the last couple of years - they're a great evening's entertainment for 8-12 commanders with aerial bombing runs using mines, air cover against the inevitable "never miss" railasps and then SRV's to take out turrets and skimmers. Being able to take and share this mission in a wing (ok - so it's only 4 people, but it's a start) would add to the event as there is a reward that's more than just "tooling around having fun" to be had....

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

+1 to base assaults converted to wing missions. Would be a killer feature for ED.

 

[maboleth]

Dominic - I second the above - the base assaults as a wing mission would be fantastic. +++ rated bases have formed a good part of our events shenanigans over the last couple of years - they're a great evening's entertainment for 8-12 commanders with aerial bombing runs using mines, air cover against the inevitable "never miss" railasps and then SRV's to take out turrets and skimmers. Being able to take and share this mission in a wing (ok - so it's only 4 people, but it's a start) would add to the event as there is a reward that's more than just "tooling around having fun" to be had....

+1 from me also. Great idea.

 

[Axle Reese]

Hi there,

I'm not a designer, so it's difficult to really speak to design reasons, but the easy answer is wing-enabled missions are balanced for being completed by multiple people whearas normal missions are not.

Most missions, where you could benefit from multiple people being with you, you can already complete with help from your wing (all the ones which require ship/skimmer kills already take into account whether the "killer" was in a wing with you so you don't get kills stolen by wing members) but we don't duplicate out rewards to everyone because the effort required is expected to be that of a single player.

With wing missions, the effort is increased to expect multiple people to be required (though you can attempt them on your own and I expect some of the super awesome pilots out there to surprise us) and so, I beleive, the rewards are generally intended to be greater and we duplicate them out to each player involved.

Thanks,
Dom

I've seen a couple of people already commented on how "Planetary Assault" missions would benefit from being Wing Missions and I agree wholeheartedly. It is extremely difficult to take on a High Security planetary base solo. If these would be offered as a wing mission it would be so much fun. A couple of ships to take on the defense security ships, some one to run into the base in an SRV, another ship to take out the generator and disable defenses... it would be awesome.

There may be some CMDRs that can take on a high security base solo, but my limit is low and occasionally medium, if I can get a friend to volunteer to risk his ship with me for no reward.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I've seen a couple of people already commented on how "Planetary Assault" missions would benefit from being Wing Missions and I agree wholeheartedly. It is extremely difficult to take on a High Security planetary base solo. If these would be offered as a wing mission it would be so much fun. A couple of ships to take on the defense security ships, some one to run into the base in an SRV, another ship to take out the generator and disable defenses... it would be awesome.

There may be some CMDRs that can take on a high security base solo, but my limit is low and occasionally medium, if I can get a friend to volunteer to risk his ship with me for no reward.

Agreed, these would be some great wing missions.

 

[Kaocraft]

All the stuff that's packed into this one update, and you want to hold it up over commodity awards? Nobody is going to want to wait for six months for anything, let alone that one small thing. The amount of extra work would not be worth the extra outrage and impatience from the rest of the community over such a delay and more doomsayers claiming the delay was due to "lazy devs" or "FDev doesn't care" or other such nonsense.

edit: You seem to think I believe a delay is justified to remove commodity rewards. I don't think that. If anything, I was suggesting dumping commodity rewards because, by removing that variable from the mission balance, it would *save* dev time. What I *am* in favor of is a delay to ensure that Wing missions aren't just a bolted-on side project.

We already waited three years. Nobody wanted to wait, but the waiting happened anyway. And people have never not complained about the lack of wing missions, from day 1 of 1.2's release.

If they delay the 3.0 release, or the wing mission feature, by 6 months ( a number I just made up but let's go with it) in order to do the necessary work of fully and properly integrating a new feature into the game; then they get called lazy devs for six more months. If they rush a release and deliver another half-baked non-feature which is walled off from connecting with the rest of the game, they get called lazy devs forever.

We don't need anymore PowerPlays or CQCs or Multicrew style updates, where it's a bolted on "bonus" feature not fully implemented into the core functionality of the game, and then abandoned forever. Beyond was supposed to be about making improvements to the core game. The wing missions as described are not part of the core game. They are an add-on. What I want, and what people have wanted since forever, is not a NEW THING, but instead for two OLD systems (wings and the mission system) to be integrated. This is not integration this is a side-project.

Why is there a megathread called "Frontier Can't Deliver"? It's not because of delays. It's because whenever Frontier gets around to actually delivering an update, they don't really deliver a full implementation of the concept they are proposing. This is a chance to break that cycle and it's also the most important change they could make to the game, if they really are serious about supporting multiplayer.

 

[Kaocraft]

Sure, because there's no way FD could introduce other type of rare goods rewards besides Engineer goods.

Seriously, think at least few steps further.

I'm so far ahead that your conception of "a few steps further" is already in my rearview mirror. It's figuratively literally impossible for them to add new cargo rewards to the mission template structure because Game Development Is Hard. That's why they haven't done anything like that even though they removed engineering cargo requirements a year ago.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

We already waited three years. Nobody wanted to wait, but the waiting happened anyway. And people have never not complained about the lack of wing missions, from day 1 of 1.2's release.

If they delay the 3.0 release, or the wing mission feature, by 6 months ( a number I just made up but let's go with it) in order to do the necessary work of fully and properly integrating a new feature into the game; then they get called lazy devs for six more months. If they rush a release and deliver another half-baked non-feature which is walled off from connecting with the rest of the game, they get called lazy devs forever.

We don't need anymore PowerPlays or CQCs or Multicrew style updates, where it's a bolted on "bonus" feature not fully implemented into the core functionality of the game, and then abandoned forever. Beyond was supposed to be about making improvements to the core game. The wing missions as described are not part of the core game. They are an add-on. What I want, and what people have wanted since forever, is not a NEW THING, but instead for two OLD systems (wings and the mission system) to be integrated. This is not integration this is a side-project.

Why is there a megathread called "Frontier Can't Deliver"? It's not because of delays. It's because whenever Frontier gets around to actually delivering an update, they don't really deliver a full implementation of the concept they are proposing. This is a chance to break that cycle and it's also the most important change they could make to the game, if they really are serious about supporting multiplayer.

As the next to updates are minor updates, I am sure they will be sorting the remainder of the missions for then. I am happy for them to implement most of the missions and get the rest with either patches or with the next minor update.

 

[Blackcompany]

Morning all,

I'd like to address two conversations I have seen here:

Firstly the mission choices system will always offer credit heavy packages and then picks randomly from materials, commodities, reputation boosts and influence boosts. These other two reward packages will also come with some credits, essentially the remainder once the commodities, materials etc have been taken into account.

In my mind the commodity option is there for those commanders who feel like they can use the trade system to their advantage. There should be cases where players could sell these reward commodities for more than the system essentially purchased them from. Basically where the player feels they can increase the value of their reward package by taking the time to sell those reward commodities at the right system for the right amount. Of course, this is a procedural system so it's up to the player to work out if it's worth the time and effort. As with everything, the values used in all these calculations will require balancing. HOWEVER, the new system adds a lot of flexibility now as the choice is always in the player's hands.

A quick note on influence boost rewards and wing missions, due to the nature of this reward and the impact on the BGS only the mission owner will be offered this reward type. All players will receive baseline influence increases, but only the owner of the mission can get the increased boosted amount.



In regards to porting all missions over to the wing mission system, I don't want to do that because I want finer control. Someone suggested that low level wing missions spawn with low amounts that are suitable for solo players. However, it would actually need to cover the full range of player skill and then the full range of wing sizes and skill levels. Considering how difficult it is to balance a mission template (rewards, challange, branches etc) for just the skill range of a solo player I decided to split wing missions into their own templates that faces the challange of being balanced for either high level solo players or 2+ wingmates.

Also on a more practical standpoint it's a lot of work to port any mission over to being a wing mission, with a lot of new (and in some cases very difficult) questions needing answers. By making the wing missions new templates we allow ourselves the opportunity to solve these challenges while not impacting any of the normal missions we have in game. That way we add options for our player and don't risk taking away something players might already enjoy.



Ta,
Adam

So...credits are there for people wanting credits.

And commodities are there for people wanting...credits?

That's just bad. It outright demonstrates that commodities should not be mission rewards, outside of perhaps trade missions.

 

[Blackcompany]

As the next to updates are minor updates, I am sure they will be sorting the remainder of the missions for then. I am happy for them to implement most of the missions and get the rest with either patches or with the next minor update.

Just like we were sure they'd be sorting Power Play. And the USS mechanic. And the lack.of game play in Exploration...

As someone else said, placeholders stay placeholders in this Game. It's time for Fdev to do it fully, and right, the FIRST time. If the leadership can't do that, they aren't leading.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Just like we were sure they'd be sorting Power Play. And the USS mechanic. And the lack.of game play in Exploration...

As someone else said, placeholders stay placeholders in this Game. It's time for Fdev to do it fully, and right, the FIRST time. If the leadership can't do that, they aren't leading.

If it was that easy I'm sure they would.

 

[Shadowdancer]

I'd like to mention that I would very much prefer if the wing transport missions didn't (all) end up spawning high-level pursuers necessitating an armed escort and having that as a visible wrinkle in the description like for passengers, since I see a lot of potential for them to give truckers more flavour through territoriality. I very much welcome the cargo depots from a single-player perspective for that reason. (And there's my idea "for later" https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...-trade-quot-personal-CG-quot-on-top-of-depots )

 

[frostypaw]

Just to clarify as a lot of people are saying this exact thing, doing this is a tremendous amount of work. Just look at the delivery mission we showed, adding wings to delivery required the creation of the mission depot and the partial complete functionality. That took a lot of work from multiple departments! The wing delivery mission also has a completely different flow because of these changes(the depot especially) so all the other delivery mission templates would need to be completely re-worked.

Adam

Please don't think we don't understand there's possibly a lot of work involved, just take away that a load of people think this would be absolutely brilliant and provide a lot if not ALL of the multiplayer functionality we've ever wanted out of the game. No demanding it now going on (that's the other crowd) just saying it's great - please sir, can we have some more

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Just like we were sure they'd be sorting Power Play. And the USS mechanic. And the lack.of game play in Exploration...

As someone else said, placeholders stay placeholders in this Game. It's time for Fdev to do it fully, and right, the FIRST time. If the leadership can't do that, they aren't leading.

Really?

USS was random and produced by chance as you flew ship. You didn't know what's in them. You didn't know which one will have your mission objective. They were glitchy.

Now they are spatial. They are generated according to your location, being it ship line or something else. You get blue ss for missions, which you discover by scanning both nav beacon and/or planet nearby.

Nonsense. Just because something get developed slower than others or they don't get full treatment you would want, doesn't mean they are staying placeholders.

Everything has it's own pace and development takes time.

Yes, there have been mechanics which have been unoutched since release, but those will see improvements this year. Indicating, if some things can be improved, they will be improved eventually.

Just like we were sure they'd be sorting Power Play. And the USS mechanic. And the lack.of game play in Exploration...

As someone else said, placeholders stay placeholders in this Game. It's time for Fdev to do it fully, and right, the FIRST time. If the leadership can't do that, they aren't leading.

You have zero understanding how to make actual real game.