Dont forget the time needed for visit three different mat/data brookers 
New upgrade System - "Your time is valueable"- is a pure grind and waste of everyones time
The bold part isn't exactly true though is it.
G3 and G4 mats are often just as specific as G5 mats in terms of how to get them, which means more time spent specifically hunting down material types.
G1 and G2 mats are often just left behind without collection - now we'll want to hang around to scoop everything - which means more time spent before we move on.
That. And every upgrade with firmwares in its path to G5 will become a PITA.
Dont forget the time needed for visit three different mat/data brookers
That will be annoying. There's no denying it.
Yes, I do not expect to get every G3-G4 automatically. Some of those will surely require Material Traders or specific grinding (don't know yet which will be easier).
Possibly. There's always PITA somewhere in details.
Possibly. There's always PITA somewhere in details.
You say that like it's fine. Wait till you see the complaints about CIF start.
Enjoy the charge enhanced distributor rolls. CIF needed for G4 and G5. It is totally unacceptable to me to have to waste mats I need for G5 rolls which are super hard to come by, on the pointless leveling up exercise.
Who knows what the recipes will even be after the update, I'm guessing they will have changed them to some degree.
I hope they reconsider the g1-g4 progression per module.
Note to self: Must plan Chieftan modules and get to g5 before new release lol.
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Adding my example here:
The new system is objectively better for the first ship and it's core internals and shields:
Bulkheads, drives, powerplant, fsd, distributer, life support, sensors, shields
Old system = 288 mats
New system = 268.8 mats
That is better.
However, the new system takes more materials, and therefore time, for any subsequent G5 already done, particularly when you take duplicated weapons or modules into account.
Eg For a new player's first Cobra mk III with 4 MCs with special effects and 2 different utilities it's only a little worse:
Old system = 477 (288 + 36 + 36 + 54 + 21 + 21 + 21)
New system = 510.4 (268.8 + 33.6 + 33.6 + 43.6 + 43.6 + 43.6 + 43.6 )
But for each subsequent Cobra mk III (or equivalent):
Old system = 174 (72 + 9 + 9 + 21 + 21 + 21 + 21)
New system = 510.4 (the same as the first ship)
That is, for this example a second ship and beyond (see what I did there ) the new system will require over 3 times the materials of the old system, and that ratio will get worse the more duplicated weapons, utilities, internals are used.
Whilst it will probably give a more reliable outcome it will be far more time consuming for a player's fleet, however you go about getting the materials (mat broker etc)
See the spoiler for the working. (Feel free to say if I've made any mistakes)
My opinion
Pros: I like the more predictive system a LOT. I like the 'buying' of special effects rather than rep. I think everything else in this update from all 3 streams looks great and I'm looking forward to trying it out.
The new system is objectively better for the first ship and it's core internals and shields:
Bulkheads, drives, powerplant, fsd, distributer, life support, sensors, shields
Old system = 288 mats
New system = 268.8 mats
That is better.
However, the new system takes more materials, and therefore time, for any subsequent G5 already done, particularly when you take duplicated weapons or modules into account.
Eg For a new player's first Cobra mk III with 4 MCs with special effects and 2 different utilities it's only a little worse:
Old system = 477 (288 + 36 + 36 + 54 + 21 + 21 + 21)
New system = 510.4 (268.8 + 33.6 + 33.6 + 43.6 + 43.6 + 43.6 + 43.6 )
But for each subsequent Cobra mk III (or equivalent):
Old system = 174 (72 + 9 + 9 + 21 + 21 + 21 + 21)
New system = 510.4 (the same as the first ship)
That is, for this example a second ship and beyond (see what I did there
) the new system will require over 3 times the materials of the old system, and that ratio will get worse the more duplicated weapons, utilities, internals are used.Whilst it will probably give a more reliable outcome it will be far more time consuming for a player's fleet, however you go about getting the materials (mat broker etc)
See the spoiler for the working. (Feel free to say if I've made any mistakes)
Sandro has stated (livestream last year) that under the new system each level will take an average of 2.8 rolls ( I had to laugh when it took them 5 last night )
Old system material use, first ship:
Allowing for 3 grade 5 rolls it will take:
Grade 1: 3x1=3
Grade 2: 3x2=6
Grade 3: 3x3=9
Frade 4: 3x3=9
Grade 5: 3x3=9
A total of 36 mats per module.
Allowing for core internals and shields:
Bulkheads, drives, powerplant, fsd, distributer, life support, sensors, shields
Gives a material cost of for a base ship of 288 mats
Old system, second and subsequent ships:
Grade 5: 3x3=9
Allowing for core internals and shields:
Bulkheads, drives, powerplant, fsd, distributer, life support, sensors, shields
Gives a material cost of for a base ship of 72 mats
New system material use, first AND subsequent ships:
Grade 1: 1x2.8=2.8
Grade 2: 2x2.8=5.6
Grade 3: 3x2.8=8.4
Frade 4: 3x2.8=8.4
Grade 5: 3x2.8=8.4
A total of 33.6 mats per module.
Allowing for core internals and shields:
Bulkheads, drives, powerplant, fsd, distributer, life support, sensors, shields
Gives a material cost of for a base ship of 268.8 mats
(Each weapon would be 33.6+ ~10 mats for a special effect)
The first ship core modules will be faster to engineer to grade 5. Per module it's 36 (old) vs 33.6 mats (new).
For the core internals and shields it will be
Old system = 72 mats
New system = 268.8 mats
For the first module with a special effect at an engineer (eg weapons)
Old system = 54 mats (36 mats for module, +18 for special effect)
New system = ~43.6 (depends on special effect)
For subsequent upgrades with special effects available at the same engineer
Old system = 21 mats.
New system = ~43.6 (new, depends on special effect)
Without special effects modules take:
Old system = 36 mats then 9 for every subsequent module at the same engineer
New system = 33.6 for every module
)Old system material use, first ship:
Allowing for 3 grade 5 rolls it will take:
Grade 1: 3x1=3
Grade 2: 3x2=6
Grade 3: 3x3=9
Frade 4: 3x3=9
Grade 5: 3x3=9
A total of 36 mats per module.
Allowing for core internals and shields:
Bulkheads, drives, powerplant, fsd, distributer, life support, sensors, shields
Gives a material cost of for a base ship of 288 mats
Old system, second and subsequent ships:
Grade 5: 3x3=9
Allowing for core internals and shields:
Bulkheads, drives, powerplant, fsd, distributer, life support, sensors, shields
Gives a material cost of for a base ship of 72 mats
New system material use, first AND subsequent ships:
Grade 1: 1x2.8=2.8
Grade 2: 2x2.8=5.6
Grade 3: 3x2.8=8.4
Frade 4: 3x2.8=8.4
Grade 5: 3x2.8=8.4
A total of 33.6 mats per module.
Allowing for core internals and shields:
Bulkheads, drives, powerplant, fsd, distributer, life support, sensors, shields
Gives a material cost of for a base ship of 268.8 mats
(Each weapon would be 33.6+ ~10 mats for a special effect)
The first ship core modules will be faster to engineer to grade 5. Per module it's 36 (old) vs 33.6 mats (new).
For the core internals and shields it will be
Old system = 72 mats
New system = 268.8 mats
For the first module with a special effect at an engineer (eg weapons)
Old system = 54 mats (36 mats for module, +18 for special effect)
New system = ~43.6 (depends on special effect)
For subsequent upgrades with special effects available at the same engineer
Old system = 21 mats.
New system = ~43.6 (new, depends on special effect)
Without special effects modules take:
Old system = 36 mats then 9 for every subsequent module at the same engineer
New system = 33.6 for every module
My opinion
Pros: I like the more predictive system a LOT. I like the 'buying' of special effects rather than rep. I think everything else in this update from all 3 streams looks great and I'm looking forward to trying it out.
I very much doubt FD will change the blueprints requirements. CIF are going to be a pain.
Tough, maybe going for missions giving MEF's and then downgrading to 9 CIF's might be the least painfull way.
Won't be more grind for me, in fact I think it will remove all grind since I'll not spend a minute engineering anything using this system. I usually collected mats for around 5-8 G5 rolls, which already was a chore I hated but at least it gave me a G5 module. I'm not going through 4 lvls to get to the priveledge to do those 5 rolls.
Frontier stated it wanted more players to engineer because engineering is cool. The new system will see less players engineering because the carrot got smaller and is dangeled from a longer stick.
Edit: can someone at Frontier explain to me how an explorer organically collects ingredients needed for rolls? No they can't. Materials, sure. All the other stuff-> grind.
But Explorers don't show up on FDevs radar. They go honk. FDev only cares about pew.
Frontier stated it wanted more players to engineer because engineering is cool. The new system will see less players engineering because the carrot got smaller and is dangeled from a longer stick.
Edit: can someone at Frontier explain to me how an explorer organically collects ingredients needed for rolls? No they can't. Materials, sure. All the other stuff-> grind.
But Explorers don't show up on FDevs radar. They go honk. FDev only cares about pew.
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You fool! The stick is for beating! Not for dangling the carrot.
![[VR] Frank_G](https://forums-cdn.zaonce.net/data/avatars/m/59/59394.jpg?1553527111){kind=avatar}
Still people seem to think in filled bar graphs and being unable to enjoy a game without numbers at 100%... Not my problem. I really like the new system, the fact that we have contineous progress and the much clearer interface. You could still get all infos and stuff together and run through a module in one visit if one can't stand slower progression.
As said, i like it and looking forward to test.
As said, i like it and looking forward to test.
Yup, spot on. I will do some engineer grinding in the next weeks under the old system, but as mainly a trader and explorer, the amount of G5 mods I need is quite small. FSD, drives, some shields...
After that I'm done with engineering for good.
The new engineering system will ensure that I will never get into the PvP side of the game, because phew, that would be a PITA to engineer under the new system.
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Easier to find materials (from Orbit)
Easier to trade materials (too and from)
And being able to finish your grade5 roll anywhere in the galaxy if you pinned it.
AND you get to keep your Experimental Effect per roll, anywhere in the galaxy.
15-25 rolls better than your god roll
Is accused as being too much grind by people who are used to a a system that demanded that you had
1 to 1000+ rolls (even though i'm already at level 5, give or take skipped minimum 20 rolls already to acquire a grade 5)
to get the equivalent Full upgrade AND random experimental effect.
/sarcasm, yeah the new system is totally unfair by being consistently, static, barely any RNG.
But as usual the proof is in the tasting the pudding.
You do NOT know until you play.
And when the mining love and exploration love kicks in,
these could be some of you most treasured gameloops that keeps you hooked.
Easier to trade materials (too and from)
And being able to finish your grade5 roll anywhere in the galaxy if you pinned it.
AND you get to keep your Experimental Effect per roll, anywhere in the galaxy.
15-25 rolls better than your god roll
Is accused as being too much grind by people who are used to a a system that demanded that you had
1 to 1000+ rolls (even though i'm already at level 5, give or take skipped minimum 20 rolls already to acquire a grade 5)
to get the equivalent Full upgrade AND random experimental effect.
/sarcasm, yeah the new system is totally unfair by being consistently, static, barely any RNG.
But as usual the proof is in the tasting the pudding.
You do NOT know until you play.
And when the mining love and exploration love kicks in,
these could be some of you most treasured gameloops that keeps you hooked.
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As one who has more than 30 ships in his fleet, I am very concerned about what this new level of effort will mean if I wanted to upgrade a number of internals on several ships, or if I wanted to further upgrade any or all of my 160 or so weapons spread throughout my ships and module storage?
Am I misunderstanding, or does each individual module have it's own upgrade path from 1-5, requiring each to be started from level 1, then upgraded? Pardon, I haven't watched the stream. If that's the case, it sounds like something I'll only realistically be willing to do for maybe 2 or 3 ships, and even then only my personal favorites. The prospect of doing say...20 engines to G5 "really good rolls" status seems unreasonably high.
But maybe it's the burnout from doing all of this once already for each of my existing fleet of ships talking. I don't know. I just remember how much time commitment it took to gather all those thousands of materials from planet surfaces, from raiding planetary outposts, praying for enough of the right signal source to pop up after flying around for hours, flying around buying engineering mats...
...I just can't imagine having to do it all again, from scratch, per module. This would be a lot of content I'd probably end up skipping. I can just transplant some of my existing G5 parts from any of the 7 or 8 ships that already use the kinds of parts the Chieftan needs right into the Chieftan and call it a day. Those rolls are going to have to be magical to get me to do that again.
For the sake of giving it a fair shake, I'll probably upgrade 1 ship and time it just to see what kind of time commitment we're talking about and decide what to do from there.
Am I misunderstanding, or does each individual module have it's own upgrade path from 1-5, requiring each to be started from level 1, then upgraded? Pardon, I haven't watched the stream. If that's the case, it sounds like something I'll only realistically be willing to do for maybe 2 or 3 ships, and even then only my personal favorites. The prospect of doing say...20 engines to G5 "really good rolls" status seems unreasonably high.
But maybe it's the burnout from doing all of this once already for each of my existing fleet of ships talking. I don't know. I just remember how much time commitment it took to gather all those thousands of materials from planet surfaces, from raiding planetary outposts, praying for enough of the right signal source to pop up after flying around for hours, flying around buying engineering mats...
...I just can't imagine having to do it all again, from scratch, per module. This would be a lot of content I'd probably end up skipping. I can just transplant some of my existing G5 parts from any of the 7 or 8 ships that already use the kinds of parts the Chieftan needs right into the Chieftan and call it a day. Those rolls are going to have to be magical to get me to do that again.
For the sake of giving it a fair shake, I'll probably upgrade 1 ship and time it just to see what kind of time commitment we're talking about and decide what to do from there.
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I agree...
Guys please at least wait for the beta, we don’t even know if the mats requirements will be the same !
I think i’ll actually like these changes. We now have to wait and see
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The uninformed is quick to dismiss.
I've never engineered seriously. Never even made a grade 2 mod. I don't need that. I don't want that activity. Still I end up with AI ships I can't beat in sane amounts of time and effort, now that they spawn frequently.
It's not that the engineers are unfun, clunky, inaccessible, disregard time spent, badly designed and whatnot - the base game itself has become unfun by forcing bulletsponged enemies into my unmodded gameplay.
How much negative feedback will it require from the players before the devs understand that the forced G1 to G5 progression for every module is a huge waste of everyones time? If they didn't understand it from the focused feedback, then I doubt anything we can say during Beta will make a single shred of difference...
The devs have their mind set on this. I foolishly allowed myself to believe they would move away from the grind = fun design choices of the past. Shame on me...
The devs have their mind set on this. I foolishly allowed myself to believe they would move away from the grind = fun design choices of the past. Shame on me...