Engineers: Reality and Human Nature vs. Design Intent - Why the design Creates Tedium

Since you are the one not liking the game, aren't you your own problem?

Mostliekly not, the problem seems to be big enough that FD starts caring about this being a problem, maybe the majority of palyers isn't just happy doint the same midnless taks over and over, not even animals do that unless they have no choice.
So it looks like FD realised that their bland and broing design isn't entertainign enough (there sstill people happy with it) players to make actions necessary with those systems they implemented. And no game dev dos that just "out of a mood".
 
if only they were obainable while playing along, but they aren't. if you would do it on the super rare occasions the yhapopen then you would need month for s simple mod. It's just baldy implemented. also, explain me how soemoen minign comes accross enough of these items to ever find enough stuff for proper G5 upgrades. if only stuff like imperials hielding would drop form imperial ships raider,s then yes could happen wihin mining as well, but doesn't.

*sigh*

For the zillionth time - the intention never was that you'd find everything if you focused on just one activity (eg. mining like you said) but that you'd have to play the rest of the game too.

Can't believe how often we have to go over this.

One of the most basic tenets of engineering is as a mechanism to get people to do more than one or two things repetitively in game.
 
the intention never was that you'd find everything if you focused on just one activity (eg. mining like you said) but that you'd have to play the rest of the game too.

I think the bone of contention on this, is the above does not under any definition of normal, fit the description of "blaze your own trail".

I can understand the wish by the Design Team to encourage Commanders to experience as much of the Universe as possible, however if enforcing a grind lock within a key mechanic is indeed intended, it's exploitative at worst, naive at best.

The comments around "you'll pick up what you need as you fly around naturally" just seem misinformed to me. Or let's say "optimistic" to be fair. Most will absolutely have to hunt for mats, even if the Brokers are their best mates. Which of course, if a Commander wishes to engage in the services of an Engineer, can be considered a fair activity. It's just the sheer amount of that activity required, that could be considered an oversight. If you're limited on time, or indeed the ability to suspend belief...it is a thing.
 
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I'm fine with doing different things. I don't take "blaze that own trail" that literally. However, even if I did do the different things the rare stuff wouldn't drop neither, because there was no way of figuring out where to go to find it but even when there was info if it was just bugged or bad luck or some patch changing it up again.

So why would I bother when it's just time-wasters?
 
I'm fine with doing different things. I don't take "blaze that own trail" that literally. However, even if I did do the different things the rare stuff wouldn't drop neither, because there was no way of figuring out where to go to find it but even when there was info if it was just bugged or bad luck or some patch changing it up again.

So why would I bother when it's just time-wasters?

The sense that needs to be applied when finding some of this stuff is indeed not that common. It's my biggest issue with Engineers. The feedback I left way back when in the FFF about Engineers extended to exactly that. "The system is fine, it's the nonsense that feeds the system that needs to be fixed" etc.

Seems to me they redesigned the bit that did not need it, and just reconfigured the bit that needed to be redesigned. But time will tell.
 
I do agree with the OP, though.

Hey I need a van.. Hey I just purchased a van. But it only has a range of 40 yards.. oh. But to upgrade it, we need to visit Alan Sugar, who will send you on a treasure hunt around London, for no more reason than to amuse him... after amusing him for 6 solid weeks of fetching stuff, he turns around and says.. ahh ok ok i'm bored now.. here... now your van has a range of 400 miles. Bon voyage.

I'm probably just lazy, but i'd always pay a premium and get what I need, not get what i'm given.
 
I'm probably just lazy, but i'd always pay a premium and get what I need, not get what i'm given.

You forgot to mention Alan Sugar would tease you, by pretending to toss a coin on a major decision.

He understands demand that fella.

It's why we're all still using our phones to send emails.
 
Chances of hunting through all the drawers to find batteries, nails and other bits of loot as an inevitable part of the process of shooting down some mutants are pretty slim too.

except that those drawers aren't random spawned with random content, nor are they 5m form eahc other away, they appear plenty with plenty of batteries. and nope, I still can buy batteries at traders in various locations for the most regular currency which I can get from EVERY other available item.

So f you wanna slap in another common example, please include the options it has which ED lacks. I can't mine Crapworthium sell ot for 5Cr and buying materials the metoirdes or datastations would give.
 
*sigh*

For the zillionth time - the intention never was that you'd find everything if you focused on just one activity (eg. mining like you said) but that you'd have to play the rest of the game too.

Can't believe how often we have to go over this.

One of the most basic tenets of engineering is as a mechanism to get people to do more than one or two things repetitively in game.

you DO NOT come accross these thinsg on yoru journey, you for most of them have to directly seek them out. and this is not how comign across them works. even less the "blaze your own trail" this game is still an FD "blaze on our rails" definition.
You cannot even reach some g5 mods WITHOUT supporting a specific faction. And this baiscally violates some primary "blaze your own trail" idea.
For avarious trails, like pirates or other major faction aligned commanders it would have been vital to add multiple engineers so that every playstyle can achieve them. But nope, heres your "sirius corporation rail", want those G5's follow exactly this path.
 
except that those drawers aren't random spawned with random content, nor are they 5m form eahc other away, they appear plenty with plenty of batteries. and nope, I still can buy batteries at traders in various locations for the most regular currency which I can get from EVERY other available item.

So f you wanna slap in another common example, please include the options it has which ED lacks. I can't mine Crapworthium sell ot for 5Cr and buying materials the metoirdes or datastations would give.

Yes! Let's go for realism, since people never complain about traveling times, ship delivery times, dark sides of planets being too dark... You know that Elite compromises a lot with realistic concepts in favor of gameplay, right? And now, since game mechanics are not in your favor you play the "realism" card? I'd love to buy all the nice materials as well, because that would be realistic, but would just ruin the engineering system, which is created to be a bit by bit improvement thing, not a "I buy a better ship" thing.
So if realism is a good thing in this game now, I want superdark dark sides of planets and a realistic flight model and since we're at it, we all turn to paste when boosting... :D
 
you DO NOT come accross these thinsg on yoru journey, you for most of them have to directly seek them out. and this is not how comign across them works. even less the "blaze your own trail" this game is still an FD "blaze on our rails" definition.
You cannot even reach some g5 mods WITHOUT supporting a specific faction. And this baiscally violates some primary "blaze your own trail" idea.
For avarious trails, like pirates or other major faction aligned commanders it would have been vital to add multiple engineers so that every playstyle can achieve them. But nope, heres your "sirius corporation rail", want those G5's follow exactly this path.

So much bitterness.

You appear to be another one who thinks "blaze your own trail" translates as "do whatever you want and everything will come to you."

Sometimes "blazing your own trail" might mean you don't get to see everything in the game. This is fine and entirely satisfies "blaze your own trail."

Wanna just mine? That's fine, but accept you'll not get the things you get by doing other activities.

Wanna just explore? That's fine, but accept you'll not get combat elite etc.

What's next Lily? Demanding that via stunts in SRVs you should be able to get powerplay weapons? C'mon. This is just silly.
 
OP nailed it. This is transaction coercing mobile game theory being applied totally out of context.

I had just reinstalled and gotten some kind of good(good enough) G5 rolls from a few of the engineers.... saw the Beta changes and stopped playing.

Hilarious to see the old guard of try hard die hards are still shooting down any criticisms of their glorious dev overlords.
 
saw the Beta changes and stopped playing.

Laughing at this kind of petty stuff is different from thinking they do no wrong. I'd much rather we didn't have these changes, I'm laughing my head off at the farcical 16,000+ inventory we now have etc - warned them there is never a big enough bag - they do all sorts of silly things.

But it's all topped by the pettiness of some of the playerbase.
 
Laughing at this kind of petty stuff is different from thinking they do no wrong. I'd much rather we didn't have these changes, I'm laughing my head off at the farcical 16,000+ inventory we now have etc - warned them there is never a big enough bag - they do all sorts of silly things.

But it's all topped by the pettiness of some of the playerbase.

when all you can do is cherry pick out of context, you probably don't have a point.

The design choices they're making have more in common with a pay to win mobile game then with an pre-paid MMO. You may be happy with mediocrity, many are not.
 
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when all you can do is cherry pick out of context, you probably don't have a point.

The design choices they're making have more in common with a pay to win mobile game then with an pre-paid MMO. You may be happy with mediocrity, many are not.

It's about defining normal in a fanatical frame of reference.

Mediocrity is usually the outcome, when nothing is considered substandard.
 
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Yes! Let's go for realism, since people never complain about traveling times, ship delivery times, dark sides of planets being too dark... You know that Elite compromises a lot with realistic concepts in favor of gameplay, right? And now, since game mechanics are not in your favor you play the "realism" card? I'd love to buy all the nice materials as well, because that would be realistic, but would just ruin the engineering system, which is created to be a bit by bit improvement thing, not a "I buy a better ship" thing.
So if realism is a good thing in this game now, I want superdark dark sides of planets and a realistic flight model and since we're at it, we all turn to paste when boosting... :D


I didn't play any realism cards, there isn't even realism in Elite. So what would be wrong with buying Engineering related things? it wouldn't ruin engineers. It would only ruin them if buy costs would be too cheap. But yes given how missions are imbalanced we shouldn't expect FD to create them balanced. I would simply buy those I don't wanna grind and can collect those not beeing that boring. Or even if FD weren't too lazy with excuses, would give us player trading we could trade materials for materials. But delivering boring side currencies (and thats all materials are) is the lazy MMO's devolpers answer to a badly implemented economy, where they lost control about the value and scale of their primary currency.


So much bitterness.

You appear to be another one who thinks "blaze your own trail" translates as "do whatever you want and everything will come to you."

Sometimes "blazing your own trail" might mean you don't get to see everything in the game. This is fine and entirely satisfies "blaze your own trail."

Wanna just mine? That's fine, but accept you'll not get the things you get by doing other activities.

Wanna just explore? That's fine, but accept you'll not get combat elite etc.

What's next Lily? Demanding that via stunts in SRVs you should be able to get powerplay weapons? C'mon. This is just silly.

Wheres that bitterness? It is simply fact that if you choose a specific way that 80% of the remaining content is kinda locked, because evertyhing is in it's own rails.

Why can a Miner not make money and buy modules?
Why can a miner not support a major power with his doings and get PP points because mining in a power owned system increases the wealth and powers income from that system should rise, in whichs return he gains points at the power? This makes sense by a proper universe and allows to go off rails without missing all the content because a lot content is accessable in multiple ways now.
So why are these two specific examples pressed into such extremely tight rails? Because FD desigend every part in this game as an own module that never connected to the whole picture or making the game a whole? I haven't said to get evertyhing, but you basically miss most of everything.

Nearly everthing in this game is kinda an own minigame basically just connected that we sit in our ship doing these elements in it, but it happens on these extremely narrow defined pathes.

But yes I would demand that when I run my SRV and scrap alliance bases it should affect powerplay and affect Undermining/reinforcement states. But nope instead delivering nude magazines, ehhm, I mean propaganda matieral is totally the only way in the elite universe how systems get reinforced or undermined.

if you ever played some more complex 4X games you would understand that Elite could have such a better immersive whole universe and it wouldn't bleed FD out, yet grant us so much more freedome to truly do things the way we want. But I bet currently 90% of the players have probably spent 80% of ther time the exact same way just in different places. Thats not the deifnition of "your own" thats the definition of "everyone elses". The remaining 10% are mostly those explorers having enough time at hand running across the universe, those PvP freaks and their hardcore pvp attitude or those playing minor factions for their player made faction. But getting an own minor faction up is a chore of submitting an email hoping to get selected instead of having an ingame way to start one.
 
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I didn't play any realism cards, there isn't even realism in Elite. So what woudl eb wrong with buying Engineering related things? it wouldn't ruin engineers. it would only ruin them if buy costs would be too cheap. But yes given how missiosn are imbalanced we shouldn't ecpect FD to create them balanced. I would simply buy those I don't wanna grind and can collect those not beeing that boring. or even if FD werent# to lazy with excuses would give us palyer trading we could trade materials for materials. but delivering boring side currencies (and thats all materials are) is the lazy MMO's devolpers answer to a badly implemented economy where they lostcontrol about the value and scale of their primary currency.

Wheres that bitterness? it is simply fact that if you choose a specific way that 80% of the remeianign content is kinda locked, because evertyhing is in it's own rails.

Why can a Miner not make money and buy modules?
Why can a miner not support a major power with his doings and get PP points because mining in a power owned system increases the wealth and powers income from that system shoudl rise, in whichs return he gains points at the power? this makes sense by a proper universe and allows to go off rails without missing all the content because a lot content is accessable in multiple ways now.
So why are these two specific examples pressed into such extremely tight rails? Because FD deisgend every part in this game as an own module that never connected to the whole picture or making the game a whole? I haven't said to get evertyhing, but you basically mis most of everything.

Nearly everthing in this game is kinda an own minigame basically just connected that we sit in our ship doing these elements in it, but it happens on these extremely narrow defined pathes.

But yes I would demand that when I run my SRV and scrap alliance bases it should affect pwoerplay and affect Undermining/reinforcement states. But nope instead delivering nude magazines, ehhm, I mean propaganda matieral is totally the only way in the elite universe how systems get reinforced or undermined.

if you ever palyed soem more complex 4X games you would understand that Elite could have such a better immersive whole universe and it wouldn't bled FD out, yet grant us so much more freedome to truly do thing the way we want. But I bet currently 90% of the players have probably spent 80% of ther time the exact same way just in different places. thats not the deifnition of "your own" thats the definition of "everoyne elses". the remainign 10% are mostly those explorers havign enugh time at hand running across the universe, those PvP freaks and their hardcore pvp attitude or those playing minor factions for their palyer mae faction. But gettign an own minor fation up is a chore of submitting an email hoping to get selected isnetad of havign an imgame way to start one.


Repped. Fingers crossed we'll get some decent improvements to all of that this year.
 
We need games to separate from the real world, but then a fresh balance of realism + gamey is ok... When things are just gamey for being gamey, that's when things go Jack and Jill.
 
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