OP: remember this is Elite where the dev's dare to go where no dev has gone before. They'll certainly take away from a player just as much as give. So be ready. The new changes IMO are bad as they simply trade old grind for new grind, and don't solve the bad parts. But let's wait and see the results next week.
Why are we being robbed of grade 5 in the engineering conversion for no reason?
- Thread starter n13L5
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OP: remember this is Elite where the dev's dare to go where no dev has gone before. They'll certainly take away from a player just as much as give. So be ready. The new changes IMO are bad as they simply trade old grind for new grind, and don't solve the bad parts. But let's wait and see the results next week.
i took my engineered python to the engineer in the beta. i will not be doing the same when it drops. hoping if i leave it as it is, it will stay as my go to battleship. (will we lose existing mods when beyond drops?)
my ship ended up being a shadow of its former self. every module i engineered to the max, ended up weaker than they were. the only thing that i didn't manage to Fup was the jump range. though it only increased jump to 24ly. though it is a heavy beast
bare in mind i only tried it in an existing engineered ship.
so i'm disagreeing with some comments that say the new system is better!
my ship ended up being a shadow of its former self. every module i engineered to the max, ended up weaker than they were. the only thing that i didn't manage to Fup was the jump range. though it only increased jump to 24ly. though it is a heavy beast
bare in mind i only tried it in an existing engineered ship.
so i'm disagreeing with some comments that say the new system is better!
Actually, they do if things like gambling / addictions are brought into the picture.
Because they want to make you use the new system and material traders (which solely to partially offset the grind of the new system-this is what FD considers game "content". All my grd 5 ships will stay where they're at. They're good enuf for pve anyway. Yeah, I might get blowed up by another Cmdr once in a while, but it's not worth the grind to re-enginner 20 ships. But I'm not bitter or anything!
This was all pointed out during the beta... but yes, FDev is effectively robbing us of our G5 modules IF we convert them. I also agree it is an INSULT to the players.
A decent G5 when converted to a topped out G4 will be MUCH WORSE than what you started with... until you spend X number of materials to G5 it again and Y more materials to apply a secondary... all just to get close to the stats BEFORE converting to the new system.
Also, the specials in the beta used NEW materials that are not in the current game. Which means it will be IMPOSSIBLE to re-apply certain specials (I believe Thermal Vent is one of them) until you obtain a supply of the new item.
Speculation on why topped out G4 was chosen: Because it was easy for them to implement.
The problem is, it would have been equally as easy to maintain the SAME grade with the stats set to 70% of the new maximum. At least then we would only have a FEW MORE rolls to top out again.
FDev didn't seem to listen to our concerns on this during the beta... once it goes live... oh boy. It's gonna be quite the show!
Player that doesn't know the details of this: "Oh I guess I need to convert my module...", "Now I'm angry because my ship is now WORSE and I don't have enough materials to get back to what I had before!" (I'm sure the real reaction won't use such kind words.)
My plan for dealing with this is... re-roll all of my modules from scratch, and hopefully replace my existing modules IF the new one is better. (I don't think the new system can beat my existing shield... couldn't in beta)
Only convert expendable modules! Do not convert your good ones!
Another thing to note is that FDev have been making additional changes after the final beta... I hope they do an adequate job getting the new numbers right, but I have my doubts. I guess we will find out next week.
A decent G5 when converted to a topped out G4 will be MUCH WORSE than what you started with... until you spend X number of materials to G5 it again and Y more materials to apply a secondary... all just to get close to the stats BEFORE converting to the new system.
Also, the specials in the beta used NEW materials that are not in the current game. Which means it will be IMPOSSIBLE to re-apply certain specials (I believe Thermal Vent is one of them) until you obtain a supply of the new item.
Speculation on why topped out G4 was chosen: Because it was easy for them to implement.
The problem is, it would have been equally as easy to maintain the SAME grade with the stats set to 70% of the new maximum. At least then we would only have a FEW MORE rolls to top out again.
FDev didn't seem to listen to our concerns on this during the beta... once it goes live... oh boy. It's gonna be quite the show!
Player that doesn't know the details of this: "Oh I guess I need to convert my module...", "Now I'm angry because my ship is now WORSE and I don't have enough materials to get back to what I had before!" (I'm sure the real reaction won't use such kind words.)
My plan for dealing with this is... re-roll all of my modules from scratch, and hopefully replace my existing modules IF the new one is better. (I don't think the new system can beat my existing shield... couldn't in beta)
Only convert expendable modules! Do not convert your good ones!
Another thing to note is that FDev have been making additional changes after the final beta... I hope they do an adequate job getting the new numbers right, but I have my doubts. I guess we will find out next week.
Oh, please - get over it. You get to keep what you have - nothing is robbed. No one is forcing you.
The system is changing. Keep your old modules or hop on board the new system. Your choice.
"But the new system is better"
So use it. Stop crying and make the four-to-six rolls needed to max it out. Your old G5 isn't compatible with the new G5 - to the point where your old G5 rolls have stats that are not possible to change in the new system. Wan't the new G5 stats? Roll some new G5 stats.
Lordy - if I was FDev posts like this would give me a case of twitchy eye, and I'd likely just flip the table and say, "Fine - tell you what... We're changing the system. Old system is gone. Everyone starts from scratch now to be 'fair'."
The system is changing. Keep your old modules or hop on board the new system. Your choice.
"But the new system is better"
So use it. Stop crying and make the four-to-six rolls needed to max it out. Your old G5 isn't compatible with the new G5 - to the point where your old G5 rolls have stats that are not possible to change in the new system. Wan't the new G5 stats? Roll some new G5 stats.
Lordy - if I was FDev posts like this would give me a case of twitchy eye, and I'd likely just flip the table and say, "Fine - tell you what... We're changing the system. Old system is gone. Everyone starts from scratch now to be 'fair'."
I tested this out in beta. I had a near-god-role grade 5 FSD distance mod. When I converted it to the new system, yes it did drop me to grade 4, but with 8 rolls I had a noticeably improved FSD which got an additional 2 lightyears distance (from 46 to 48, with my current ship configuration). I spent 2 months collecting materials to get my previous mod, which on a stripped AspX got up to 56 lightyears. I didn't strip my ship to determine the final MAX, but with the new system, it's in the range of 58 or 59 lys.
TL;DR: In the beta, I improved on my old G5 FSD near-god-roll, in less than 15 min and 8 rolls. I think the new system is reasonable.
TL;DR: In the beta, I improved on my old G5 FSD near-god-roll, in less than 15 min and 8 rolls. I think the new system is reasonable.
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This is exactly why players who have put considerable amounts of time into the existing Engineering system over the past 2 years are being disenfranchised with the new system. Many players have already put 10 or 20 or even more Grade 5 rolls to get their FSD to the upper end of the current range. Now they're supposed to put another 10 rolls into that same FSD in the new system just to get it to the top of the new range again? They're somehow supposed to do that for every Grade 5 module on every ship that they've already Engineered?
For someone with 10 ships that's another 100 Grade 5 rolls on top of the hundreds of rolls they've already made to get those FSDs to the top of the current Engineering range.
And that's just the FSD. Multiply that for every module on each of their ships.
If FD thinks they can keep forcing players to repeat a grind they've already done instead of actually developing new content then I expect that FD will find their "metrics" show them that many longstanding players will be leaving the game once 3.0 launches.
The Pinnacle??? Nah, FDev have done far worse than this before now!!! On multiple occasions too!
No, they're not supposed to. They can choose to do it, and get their most prized new "top", or keep everything of what they already have exactly as good as it was before, and keep playing with their still perfectly reasonable "top". If a player is a completionist who feel the unstoppable urge to go full OCD on minmaxing everything he/she puts his/her hands on, that's a totally fine way to play and more power to him/her (I've been guilty of the same in many other titles in the past), but every issue that can arise with regards to the things that the game needs to be done to play this way, still comes down to an issue of said player with the game, not issues of the game itself.
Just a personal extremely simplified recap to be sure I got the facts about this "mostly" straight, please anyone correct and forgive me if I got it wrong, I'm usually more interested in playing the game in the few hours I have available than in following all the stats meta around it:
Basically up to now there were people who got to grind "1000+" amounts of materials to get top-of-the-grade "100" stuff. Now there will be a new system that brings top-of-the-grade to "110". People who got their "100" stuff may choose to keep that at "100", or convert it to the new system obtaining "90" in the process, thus having to grind an additional "300-400+" amount of materials to get it to "110", or else start with a new stuff from scratch getting the same end results but again with the "1000+" grind. With the added (marginal?) benefits that now we can carry a far larger number of materials, and the unneeded ones can be exchanged with the required ones for any given roll.
Did I get it (approximately) right?
Not really.
They're supposed to hang onto any mod's that they've worked hard for and think are worth keeping.
It isn't exactly rocket-science to take, for example, a fairly average G5 FSD to an engineer, get it modded using the new system then stick it on your exploration ship and compare it with the FSD you previously had fitted to see which one is better.
If the new one is better, yay for the new system.
If the old one is better, you've got yourself a legendary module.
Win/win.
Sorry, but that's nonsense. Their "top end" modules are no longer competitive, it isn't even close. It's not "perfectly reasonable" to spend 2 years doing a massive Engineering grind, only to have the goalposts moved to the point that all of that work isn't even a decent Grade 5 result in the new system.
Did you even look at the new values in 3.0 beta 2? They're ridiculously better than anything that players were obtaining in the current system. For the vast majority of players none of their Grade 5 rolls are "worth keeping" compared to what is achievable in the new system. Only a roll that was maybe 1 in 10,000 would have been anywhere close to the new ranges, otherwise you're going to be at least 5-10% below the new top end Grade 5 ranges.
You could always start a Private group for all the people who are holding their breath and stomping their feet because they don't want to upgrade. You could name it "Legacy" and only allow pre 3.0 mods in it. That'll keep the playing field where it is now without having to grind any more.
Or, since I play exclusively in Open, I could contribute to threads like this one where I point out that FD's plans for "improving" the Engineering system shouldn't invalidate 2 years of Engineering grind by longstanding players.
You know, since the entire point of 3.0 was to "improve core gameplay features" and this shouldn't involve making our current Grade 5 mods obsolete and adding more grind. There is absolutely no reason why FD couldn't provide an appropriate conversion process for our existing Grade 5 mods so this is clearly a deliberate decision to force us into repeating a grind we already did over the past 2 years.
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Blackcompany
Banned
And in a year, we they still haven't figured out how to create compelling game play loops, they'll do this all again, moving the goalposts, in a desperate attempt to keep people grinding.
Time for new design direction. Whatever that takes.
Tiny_Rick
Banned
Or just stop playing. There's that option. It's just a game after all.
The problem that FD doesn't seem to understand is that this is their last chance to give us game mechanics that don't rely on a mindless grind. We already done every conceivable form of grind for the past three years since the game launched and it's not even meme-worthy any longer. It's just a sad substitute for actual gameplay. Beyond was supposed to be FD's opportunity to add depth and functionality to the current bare-bones, minimum viable product game mechanics that the game has had since launch. Instead they're just applying a different type of RNG to the Engineering grind and thinking that players will do a massive grind all over again because they chosen to invalidate our prior work.
Bob Lighthouse
Banned
FD is deliberately choosing to invalidate a massive grind that they have no need to invalidate. It's a deliberate choice because they want us to repeat 2 years of work that we've already done. They clearly have no plans to develop actual content or to make the game worth playing with properly developed gameplay, so instead they're "encouraging" everyone to repeat a massive Engineering grind again to remain competitive.
It's nothing like buying a car or a computer. How is that not clear?