A request for FDev; please provide an update regarding Logging/Combat Logging

[Hairy Polo]

Might be off base but feeling like genuine pirates are getting lumped in with the ganker crowd a bit.

When i pirate my only objectives are some player interaction and maybe some cargo if im lucky! Im not looking to spoil anyones game experience just have fun.

I can agree that the gankers are a nuisance for some players and could spoil an evenings fun, but by the same token cloggers are a nuisance and spoil my evenings fun. They have a perfect way to avoid me in game (solo / pg) but I have no way to avoid them. Its not my personal approach for loggers to be KOS but i can fully understand the reasoning for some CMDRs to do so.

Unfortunately the two problems (cloggers and gankers) are linked and the new crime and punishment system has done nothing to fix either.

I think you're right. In game pirates can get put in the same pot as Griefers/Gankers by players that don't agree with piracy. In game pirates are only interested in cargo and not the kill. The problem with Logging/Combat Logging during piracy is this: During pure combat, if a player logs, the player disappears and the player he logged on could take it as a win. Its still cheating, but a win nonetheless. In piracy, if a player logs, we get no cargo, we gain a bounty and it eats in to profits for nothing. Yes, pirates use the threat of destroying their ship, show of speed/power and in my case 'protection' for 24 hours as an incentive to comply, but in the end, if properly equipped, you should still be able to extract cargo anyway (and no 24hr of 'protection'). Logging/Combat Logging is bad for piracy, more so I believe, than pure combat/ganking/griefing.

But as stated on my OP, I'd like FDev to update the current situation on Logging/Combat Logging and what plans, if any, they have on dealing with it.

 

[NewBlacksmurf]

There's a difference.

I hope you're not of the opinion that if someone logs off before you get to kill them, its cheating or wrong.
Meaning, the game has a count down and if they choose to log off using this method, its not wrong or cheating. I understand it may bother you but also understand you are choosing to be a pirate and smuggler



Lets say its a situation where you both are attacking one another and they log off....still if its within the game design its not wrong or cheating.

The only thing that could be wrong or cheating is if you suspect they are triggering a network disconnect when in combat and when not using the countdown to log off.



In the end, I think it hilarious that so many complain about this because here is a point of view I've always had on this.
*IF your position is the game allows PvP so you consider it O K to attack others for whatever reason you have, that doesn't mean they have to play within that. So just as you feel they shouldn't log out, they may feel they shouldn't need to die. Its pretty simple, treat others as you'd like to be treated and for the most part, that isn't what occurring so you have this Combat Log complaint stuff.



My opinion is form what I've read and heard the developers say....its a sensitive topic and the actual solution is a larger decision.
Perhaps the different game modes should allow a PvP on/off feature so that its 100% clear who is open to it and who isn't

That's the real solution and then from there Crime and Punishment needs real strict rules and any role such as pirate, smuggler, etc needs actual UI prompts and interactions with a block on attacking unless the time and UI expire, etc. Reason is because people create this....I do this cause that is what I like and give it a name and then think that is playing the game.......but its not.

You're just online disrupting others and intentionally causing turmoil and distress....that is being a griefer.


As is...the game is a big open garbage can on PvP concerns.
That's just what I've observed

 

[NewBlacksmurf]

Please define ganking and griefing... For the last month I've been doing a blockade in Sol with my Sidewinder, Federation is bad for the humanity... 1/3 of the pilots clog on me, ppl in Condas, Cutters, FAS... What's the point of clogging when you got all your chances to escape once the FSD is rebooted.... I don't really think it's griefing or ganking even if my little ship is full of surprises...
Also why Clog is only linked to Open, how many players are affecting the BGS daily in PG/Solo and are cheating? I'm quite sure there's a high number of player doing that...
And CQC... I already saw ppl clogging in CQC, and you can do CQC and pewpews in Open!

That which is highlighted can easily be considered griefing because it reads as if you are attacking just to attack and prevent or block others form content.
It would be different if you were attacking those from another Power while trying to establish traction among your own power.

If you are a pirate, this means you are pulling ships, asking for cargo to be dropped and letting them go when the drop cargo.

If you are pulling people that don't have cargo, or just pulling people and attacking you ARE NOT BEING A PIRATE. You are being a Player Killer and that can be griefing as well as more appropriately named as ganking.


FYI: Combat Logging isn't using the system to log out.

"

... is when a Commander ungracefully exits the game (e.g. using ALT + F4 then shutting down the game process) to avoid defeat, destruction and damage. ​

"
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/105778-“Combat-Logging”-Update (source)

So for Xbox One, it would be when someone does a forced quit, or forced drop offline instantly

 

[Thepirateorc]

That which is highlighted can easily be considered griefing because it reads as if you are attacking just to attack and prevent or block others form content.
It would be different if you were attacking those from another Power while trying to establish traction among your own power.

If you are a pirate, this means you are pulling ships, asking for cargo to be dropped and letting them go when the drop cargo.

If you are pulling people that don't have cargo, or just pulling people and attacking you ARE NOT BEING A PIRATE. You are being a Player Killer and that can be griefing as well as more appropriately named as ganking.


FYI: Combat Logging isn't using the system to log out.

"

or clarity’s sake, “combat logging” is when a Commander ungracefully exits the game (e.g. using ALT + F4 then shutting down the game process) to avoid defeat, destruction and damage. ​

"
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/105778-“Combat-Logging”-Update

(

If you are pulling people that don't have cargo, or just pulling people and attacking you ARE NOT BEING A PIRATE. You are being a Player Killer and that can be griefing as well as more appropriately named as ganking) well I disagree if ive seen a player who mouthed off to me cus I pirated them then I might just go blow then up or if I know its a clogger then il also pay a visit and say hi that does not make me a ganker seeking revenge.

​

 

[Chaparral]

If Powerplay goes Open only, I think there will have to be a material response by FDEV.

Possibly drop PP related cargo, or Bongo's suggestion.

 

[NewBlacksmurf]

(

If you are pulling people that don't have cargo, or just pulling people and attacking you ARE NOT BEING A PIRATE. You are being a Player Killer and that can be griefing as well as more appropriately named as ganking) well I disagree if ive seen a player who mouthed off to me cus I pirated them then I might just go blow then up or if I know its a clogger then il also pay a visit and say hi that does not make me a ganker seeking revenge.

​

Thats not a pirate that is gainking and griefing. You are just going out to PK doing your own thing. You’re actually more of a killer or terrorist who should appear on the mission board to be killed by players and ATR. Please stop calling yourself a pirate cause you aren’t.

Read this:

”Pirates are NPCs and players who attack other ships for their cargo for monetary gain as the primary goal. Player pirates are partially smugglers, because they need to sell stolen cargo on the black market. “

Source: http://elite-dangerous.wikia.com/wiki/Pirate

 

[NewBlacksmurf]

#3 is just wrong pvp is attacking another player. Whether the target gets to know the reason why they were a target or not is irrelevant.

#1 and 2 are completely situational you have no way of knowing if those things would or wouldn't have made a difference.

Most importantly though how does your post relate to clogging?

Cmdr,

Everything you wrote in my quote is not correct.


Its obvious that ppl would only gank a non wing and lesser ship because it just happened after the wing broke and they changed ships. It’s not situational...it’s the experience so many of us have.

I literally today was in an Orca....yes and Orca with 0 cargo, no guns and doing a passenger transport and guess what. Pulled and attacked with no bounty, fine and not aligned to a power anymore. Now I just happened to log out in time and got a msg....asking why did I combat log

sooo I reported them for griefing because 1, I didn’t combat log, 2 they are griefing and 3 they are not pirating but messaging me multiple times cause i didn’t let them kill me.......I’m not o k with that

Heck my passenger didn’t even appear as a criminal or high value
thats been my experience every time I’m not in my Cutter or Conda

PvP is not “attacking another player”
PvP is defunded as Player vs another Player. What’s most important here is BOTH players have agreed and intend on Competing against one another.

So in terms of how this relates to combat logging.....in another comment you define Combat logging in terms of if another player leaves the game while being attacked. That’s NOT combat logging, that’s leaving a griefing or tanking situation

While you can choose to be a terrorist or criminal or murderer, don’t apply the logic that those behaviors are “right” and that others who are online must participate. Also, by the others being in Open, it doesn’t mean nor should it be assumed that they are in that mode and open to being ganked.

If I can speak straight....if the developers do change the game to offset combat logging, in my opinion it needs to come with an opt in/out of being yanked as well as a role selection so that if you want permission to freely attack others, you are permanent labeled as wanted, criminal and show a bounty all the time because if you want to be a bad boy....you should be subject to bad boy consequences.

The other her part is combat logging should only apply if two are flagged and one D/c on purpose not if they log out. On the flip side if you attack someone who logs out, you should also fall under the same harsh penalty that many of you are suggesting for combat loggers as your actions are the cause so both should be equally penalized.

 

[Freelancer Knux]

Cmdr,

Everything you wrote in my quote is not correct.


Its obvious that ppl would only gank a non wing and lesser ship because it just happened after the wing broke and they changed ships. It’s not situational...it’s the experience so many of us have.

I literally today was in an Orca....yes and Orca with 0 cargo, no guns and doing a passenger transport and guess what. Pulled and attacked with no bounty, fine and not aligned to a power anymore. Now I just happened to log out in time and got a msg....asking why did I combat log

sooo I reported them for griefing because 1, I didn’t combat log, 2 they are griefing and 3 they are not pirating but messaging me multiple times cause i didn’t let them kill me.......I’m not o k with that

Heck my passenger didn’t even appear as a criminal or high value
thats been my experience every time I’m not in my Cutter or Conda

PvP is not “attacking another player”
PvP is defunded as Player vs another Player. What’s most important here is BOTH players have agreed and intend on Competing against one another.

So in terms of how this relates to combat logging.....in another comment you define Combat logging in terms of if another player leaves the game while being attacked. That’s NOT combat logging, that’s leaving a griefing or tanking situation

While you can choose to be a terrorist or criminal or murderer, don’t apply the logic that those behaviors are “right” and that others who are online must participate. Also, by the others being in Open, it doesn’t mean nor should it be assumed that they are in that mode and open to being ganked.

If I can speak straight....if the developers do change the game to offset combat logging, in my opinion it needs to come with an opt in/out of being yanked as well as a role selection so that if you want permission to freely attack others, you are permanent labeled as wanted, criminal and show a bounty all the time because if you want to be a bad boy....you should be subject to bad boy consequences.

The other her part is combat logging should only apply if two are flagged and one D/c on purpose not if they log out. On the flip side if you attack someone who logs out, you should also fall under the same harsh penalty that many of you are suggesting for combat loggers as your actions are the cause so both should be equally penalized.

Lad please get it right a "gank" requires multiple ships not just one.

Another is it is noticeable when someone menu logs or clogs both are poor form in my eyes but menu logging is an in game option and viewed as ok by the devs, clogging on the otherhand is flat out cheating no two ways about it.

This one you don't seem to understand PvP doesn't have to be consensual in anyway shape or form it is a fight between players no more no less.

Personally i hunt and kill players in my I courier so dont assume all PKers only use big ships and only attack weak prey, the best sport comes from shredding a PvE conda with PAs. But there are consequences to my actions as my I courier has a bounty on it and ATR butt their nose in as well.

My point is though if you want to have control over your interactions with others in this game you can do that in PG, if you want to just do your own thing you can do that in SOLO and if you want to play in sandbox with players doing whatever they choose you have OPEN. Don't sit there later though and go "oh I picked OPEN and things aren't going my way so I'll cheat and blame them for my actions."
That is the issue people cheating cause of not getting their way, the game has these options for a reason don't pick OPEN and expect people to act like you want.

 

[Hairy Polo]

There's a difference.

I hope you're not of the opinion that if someone logs off before you get to kill them, its cheating or wrong.
Meaning, the game has a count down and if they choose to log off using this method, its not wrong or cheating. I understand it may bother you but also understand you are choosing to be a pirate and smuggler



Lets say its a situation where you both are attacking one another and they log off....still if its within the game design its not wrong or cheating.

The only thing that could be wrong or cheating is if you suspect they are triggering a network disconnect when in combat and when not using the countdown to log off.



In the end, I think it hilarious that so many complain about this because here is a point of view I've always had on this.
*IF your position is the game allows PvP so you consider it O K to attack others for whatever reason you have, that doesn't mean they have to play within that. So just as you feel they shouldn't log out, they may feel they shouldn't need to die. Its pretty simple, treat others as you'd like to be treated and for the most part, that isn't what occurring so you have this Combat Log complaint stuff.



My opinion is form what I've read and heard the developers say....its a sensitive topic and the actual solution is a larger decision.
Perhaps the different game modes should allow a PvP on/off feature so that its 100% clear who is open to it and who isn't

That's the real solution and then from there Crime and Punishment needs real strict rules and any role such as pirate, smuggler, etc needs actual UI prompts and interactions with a block on attacking unless the time and UI expire, etc. Reason is because people create this....I do this cause that is what I like and give it a name and then think that is playing the game.......but its not.

You're just online disrupting others and intentionally causing turmoil and distress....that is being a griefer.


As is...the game is a big open garbage can on PvP concerns.
That's just what I've observed

I'm going to assume you read my previous post correctly. The timed log out is a function added by FDev. Therefore it's not cheating in their eyes as its an intended feature. Personally, I don't agree with it, but it is within their rules and so it's not cheating. I do understand the difference.

Next onto your personal opinion on what you consider griefing is, in accordance with the second paragraph from the bottom of your post; your definition of griefing is incorrect like a lot of Cmdrs on this forum/game. If a player or players in a highly engineered ship or ships pull you, in let's say a Type 9, drop in and insta-kill you, fly off and carry on killing other players, that is not griefing. Just for the record, I don't do this, I RP a (PvP) pirate. I'm interested in cargo.

Griefing is consistent harassment, to the point that a player can't play the game. Emphasis on consistent harassment though. A lot of players these days shout 'griefer' when somebody just shoots them. Your previous post regarding an attack on your Orca was not griefing, as much as you liked to think it was, so much so, you felt you had to 'report' it.

That is not my opinion on what griefing is, it's fact. The definition is available for anyone to see in the public domain.

I say again, I play a pirate, no griefing here. Whether you like it or not, piracy is a valid career choice in ED, accept it. I'm not going to stop just because I don't play your way.

This thread was asking FDev for an update on Logging/Combat Logging.

 

[STARB0YY]

Been away from ED for a year, sad to see this is still a problem. Combat logging was the number one annoyance when it came to pirating in Elite, that and also the disappearing cargo bug which has to be fixed by now (right?). Nice to see there is still some piracy going on at Xbox, I remember you guys Polo and Orc.

 

[Hairy Polo]

Been away from ED for a year, sad to see this is still a problem. Combat logging was the number one annoyance when it came to pirating in Elite, that and also the disappearing cargo bug which has to be fixed by now (right?). Nice to see there is still some piracy going on at Xbox, I remember you guys Polo and Orc.

It's been a long time since we teamed up! The collector limpet bug is still there but not all the time. It seems to come and go, but still not fixed. I hope to see you back one day o7

 

[AlexLar]

you say ganking and griefing has to be sorted before we look at logging but what is it you want to happen like they already have a c and p system followed by atr terminator ships what else do you want to happen. loggers can be griefers too not just traders or your random cmdrs. logging is not acceptable in any situation it only takes 15 to 30 sec to high wake.

I'm not sure the penalty fits the crime at present but really do welcome the recent developments re crime and punishment.

A commander flying an unarmed T9 filled with 700+ tons of gold fails to manage to high wake away from a killer and is destroyed. Waking away from NPCs is straight foward, not so with the heavily engineered and tweeked pew pew.

That is a considerable financial loss to said commander in credits and hours played in order to finince above purchase. Punishment for killer minimal and not prortionate.

 

[Cmdr Nemo]

Though I personally avoided OPEN for the first 8 months of play. I managed to learn how to avoid being gacked by NPC's in SOLO by LOW WAKING and or HIGH WAKING. Though I only play in OPEN now days. Being interdicted by humans is just another feature in which causes me to do either of the afore mentioned Wakings. Though one can be interdicted more often carrying cargo, it still happens when empty, thus by the time one has made enough Cr's to afford a T9. I'd suggest that one should have or needs to learn how to Wake. In the two months I've been in OPEN exclusively, I've only been interdicted by 4 humans, and an excess of a hundred NPC's. Tis ironic, but I find waking from humans far easier than NPC's.

But then my mindset is such that I am ready constantly to wake at a momment noticed, and never bother to see what type of ship is interdicting me. Being griefed is not in my vocabulary, waking proto is. Being courious as to whom or what ship one is being interdicted by is of no consequence, one must be ready to get, when the getting is best, and that means, no hesitation. When interdicted, stop any and all forward progression, the mini game will end faster, and one's fsd cool down is far less. Thrust, thrust thrust, low or high wake. Interdictor is in the past. If and when it becomes an on going occurence, blocking a player is an option.

 

[[VR] Garfs]

there is always a minority that spoil it for the majority. You cant complain about CLOGGING if nothing is done about GANKING or GRIEFING.

Spot on - have rep cmdr

 

[Dark Polo 65]

Ganking and griefing can be sorted by learning how to play the game and is not cheating.
How many players cheat in PG/Solo?
I'm impressed by some players kind of supporting cheating in a game with an online galaxy....

 

[NewBlacksmurf]

I'm going to assume you read my previous post correctly. The timed log out is a function added by FDev. Therefore it's not cheating in their eyes as its an intended feature. Personally, I don't agree with it, but it is within their rules and so it's not cheating. I do understand the difference.

Next onto your personal opinion on what you consider griefing is, in accordance with the second paragraph from the bottom of your post; your definition of griefing is incorrect like a lot of Cmdrs on this forum/game. If a player or players in a highly engineered ship or ships pull you, in let's say a Type 9, drop in and insta-kill you, fly off and carry on killing other players, that is not griefing. Just for the record, I don't do this, I RP a (PvP) pirate. I'm interested in cargo.

Griefing is consistent harassment, to the point that a player can't play the game. Emphasis on consistent harassment though. A lot of players these days shout 'griefer' when somebody just shoots them. Your previous post regarding an attack on your Orca was not griefing, as much as you liked to think it was, so much so, you felt you had to 'report' it.

That is not my opinion on what griefing is, it's fact. The definition is available for anyone to see in the public domain.

I say again, I play a pirate, no griefing here. Whether you like it or not, piracy is a valid career choice in ED, accept it. I'm not going to stop just because I don't play your way.

This thread was asking FDev for an update on Logging/Combat Logging.

I'm going to quote and comment but to be clear I'm not seeking to attack you, however in this forum I do think its VERY important to reference details that aren't my opinion too. Because within this topic and within almost ever other topic regarding Combat Logging, there are comments that seem to misunderstand what Combat Logging is, and also what a Griefer is, in addition to more not having a clue what a Pirate is....but where some have inserted their own definitions.

If you are intentionally looking for players to kill, interdict, which has no bearing on if they wont give you cargo, aren't aligned with an opposing power, you are technically (edit) being a notorious criminal which isn't the same as a pirate.
You can be a pirate by shooting first.....with the intent on it opening a hatch to steal cargo or to disable a ship so you can steal.

Attacking with the sole purpose of destroying without any scan, and without any means to carry cargo yourself or your wing isn't pirating.
I try to use what Sandro comments as well as what the game displays and tells us.....actions for Pirating tend to suggest: "

considering the definition of "piracy", perhaps one should look at the missions list, and what "piracy missions" require you to do. They require you to steal cargo out of another (innocent) ship. The mission does not care whether or not you use an interdictor, or how the cargo is extracted." source: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...is-concerned?p=6653910&viewfull=1#post6653910 ​

(edit)(Cause everyone seems to want to define what normal is, vs. reading whats posted by the devs and the game pages) but either way the arguments often go into...well its an anarchy system so anything goes. Below I will link Anarchy because there is a lot of confusion on it....and what seems to occur is some players who want others to be open to PvP suggest, that if they are in Anarchy...anything goes.

Actually no, anything doesn't go because your are dealing with other real people and now the Crime and Punishment rules. The status "Anarchy" means the security is at its lowest but if you're scanned that changes things with a kill warrant scanner so it doesn't mean anything goes. It means often times, no one watching which is what determines an outcome.

So while you may not get in trouble in most cases, that should go as far as to suggest that others players are willing participants of someone's massacre intent. (See below)*

Here is a post where Sandro touches on Pirates....and notice the context is around hatch breaker limpets.....NOT just blowing someone up because you aren't pirating if you're just shooting. Also, in order to Pirate you would tend to have some of these: hatch breaker limpets, a scanner to determine what they have on the ship and empty cargo as well as limpet collectors (depending)
Link - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ust-got-real?p=4585858&viewfull=1#post4585858


Here is a good post that touches on a few aspects of what Griefers are and they even cite Sandro responding about ways to combat it.
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ing-(part-2)?p=5771260&viewfull=1#post5771260


And again how Sandro defines Combat Logging - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ging”-Update?p=1642728&viewfull=1#post1642728

For clarity’s sake, “combat logging” is when a Commander ungracefully exits the game (e.g. using ALT + F4 then shutting down the game process) to avoid defeat, destruction and damage. ​

A uniform definitions:


Source:http://elite-dangerous.wikia.com/wiki/Government


Anarchy

A star system with a leading Anarchy minor faction allows crimes to be committed without consequence and no ships will show as "wanted" unless scanned with a Kill Warrant Scanner.​

Source: http://elite-dangerous.wikia.com/wiki/Griefers
in: Guides

Griefers


A griefer is a player who deliberately irritates and harasses other players, often using aspects of gameplay in unintended ways by exploiting buggy game mechanics, especially when it involves player killing, but is certainly not limited to just that. A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users, and as such is a particular nuisance, since in-game penalties do not usually deter them.

 

[Thepirateorc]

Thats not a pirate that is gainking and griefing. You are just going out to PK doing your own thing. You’re actually more of a killer or terrorist who should appear on the mission board to be killed by players and ATR. Please stop calling yourself a pirate cause you aren’t.

Read this:

”Pirates are NPCs and players who attack other ships for their cargo for monetary gain as the primary goal. Player pirates are partially smugglers, because they need to sell stolen cargo on the black market. “

Source: http://elite-dangerous.wikia.com/wiki/Pirate

im not a pirate because I have a reason to kill someone. Its clear you dont have any idea of what its like to have ppl log on you because you asked for 10t of cargo. I am a pirate, I rob people and they live, dont tell me your a pro carebear who believes that any person with pvp intent regardless of reason is a griefer. I have killed players for a reason and it is of good reason. Combat loggers will be executed on site or big mouth cmdrs who run theyre mouth because I robbed them. Your right im not a pirate, im a piratelord and im very good at it, fair enough its your opinion but instead of quotes from other ppl why do you believe im not a piratelord

 

[Thepirateorc]

Been away from ED for a year, sad to see this is still a problem. Combat logging was the number one annoyance when it came to pirating in Elite, that and also the disappearing cargo bug which has to be fixed by now (right?). Nice to see there is still some piracy going on at Xbox, I remember you guys Polo and Orc.

I remember you mate, come back we need more pirates like you in the dms yarrr

 

[Thepirateorc]

smurf I'm not a bad guy, I'm portrayed bad by carebears on this game, I'm a pirate and I do use lethal force to kill their drives. there has been times I fired too much missiles that I have accentually killed them but in all professions you are going to make mistakes. I have been pirating since gpp and todays logging is still a thing which has increased due to the fact there is no consequence to it. every pirate has enemies which I kill, just because you may see a guy get killed bhy me doesn't make me a griefer as I might have a reason to kill him. I'm a pirate and look on our youtube channel for verification on that(elite dangerous dark marauders).

 

[Mr Cynical]

smurf I'm not a bad guy, I'm portrayed bad by carebears on this game, I'm a pirate and I do use lethal force to kill their drives. there has been times I fired too much missiles that I have accentually killed them but in all professions you are going to make mistakes. I have been pirating since gpp and todays logging is still a thing which has increased due to the fact there is no consequence to it. every pirate has enemies which I kill, just because you may see a guy get killed bhy me doesn't make me a griefer as I might have a reason to kill him. I'm a pirate and look on our youtube channel for verification on that(elite dangerous dark marauders).

I got caught by orc twice, escaped once, second time he got me left me floating needing a reboot, but damage costs weren't too bad.
Genuine pirate and honorably left me alive (altho it was two against one )