Grinding isn't the player's fault

[Shinji Ikari]

Grinding isn't the players fault, but it is the players choice.

This. If people want to grind then go for it, but when they come back and say the game's boring - meh, you chose to play that way.

What annoys me is that the grind isn't particularly engaging. Some are amusing like SRV driving or hacking through a planet base but flying around in loops for HGEs or scanning the wakes of ships out of the station is boring even if you do it only a few times and both of those are the only way to get a good amount of industrial materials.

 

[Stigbob]

You're describing 10-20hrs for one grade 4 upgrade, depending on how much time I have to play games at that time of year, that's my entire gameplay budget for a month. God, supercruise is long and boring enough just getting to and from actual gameplay, I couldn't bring myself to watch 0:06 at every USS that spawns.

No, I'm describing fifteen minutes including the time it takes to get to the engineer.

G1=30 seconds very plentiful, one upgrade tops its out usually.

Add the experimental.

Upgrade as far as you can/want, pin the blueprint maybe five minutes.

Off you go, now you can finish it later.

I don't stop at every USS, I always stop at weapons fire and distress signals. Degraded/encoded only if I'm in the mood and never bother with convoys. Target ships in SC passing for data, this means you've more than staring at a countdown to do.

Go back to playing the game however you like with a written list of what you are looking for, grab missions you enjoy that reward the stuff you've got written down. Consider trading for mats if you've been scooping whilst fighting and have lots of maxed out bits.

You don't need G5 everything now, and once you have it you may find you've nothing to do.

 

[Stigbob]

What annoys me is that the grind isn't particularly engaging. Some are amusing like SRV driving or hacking through a planet base but flying around in loops for HGEs or scanning the wakes of ships out of the station is boring even if you do it only a few times.

Take a wake scanner bounty hunting, as ships leave scan their wakes sitting doing nothing else is boring. Don't wait for HGE's drop into anything interesting, every time you do it it resets RNG so you don't sit in an unlucky instance you gather random other stuff you can trade even at a loss also bounties. Most importantly you have fun things to do.

 

[NoobyMcNoobFace]

You can level up as a blacksmith in Skyrim by buying iron and leather and making stuff then honing it and selling it back and buying more stuff and so on to 100. That's a job simulator and it's a terrible way to approach a video game, it's no wonder people get bored if they do things like that.

Ignore the grind and as you do something else drop into random USS's/scoop while your shields come up/take missions for mats you'll accumulate all kinds of gubbins and when it comes to engineering you'll already have it, anything you are missing you can trade for.

100% disagree with your assessment. I did some Skyrim blacksmith pure grinding and it probably took around 15 to 20 minutes to get where I needed to be. Yes, dull ish, but it was 15 minutes. Elite is 100 times worse than that. At least every brass sword I made levelled me, whereas I've had 400 game hours of Elite, and I can say categorically that pharmaceutical isolators have never dropped randomly for me, nor in the first couple of hours of deliberately trying to find them. RNG at its worst.

 

[Bacalao]

No, I'm describing fifteen minutes including the time it takes to get to the engineer.

G1=30 seconds very plentiful, one upgrade tops its out usually.

Add the experimental.

Upgrade as far as you can/want, pin the blueprint maybe five minutes.

Off you go, now you can finish it later.

I don't stop at every USS, I always stop at weapons fire and distress signals. Degraded/encoded only if I'm in the mood and never bother with convoys. Target ships in SC passing for data, this means you've more than staring at a countdown to do.

Go back to playing the game however you like with a written list of what you are looking for, grab missions you enjoy that reward the stuff you've got written down. Consider trading for mats if you've been scooping whilst fighting and have lots of maxed out bits.

You don't need G5 everything now, and once you have it you may find you've nothing to do.

Nevermind the jump-turn-jump-turn back and forth to engineers, not getting the materials you need, limited selection of things that drop from activities you do (like raw) that you can't trade at materials traders, the punishingly high cost of using materials traders, etc. Eh, whatever, it takes exorbitant amounts of time to do it "as you go", it takes exorbitant amounts of time to get it done when you're using the most efficient "exploits" you can find, you might not be paying attention to the clock ticking but I sure as hell am.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Take a wake scanner bounty hunting, as ships leave scan their wakes sitting doing nothing else is boring.

When I go to bounty hunt, I kill ships not track them. Those are very different things.

Don't wait for HGE's drop into anything interesting, every time you do it it resets RNG so you don't sit in an unlucky instance you gather random other stuff you can trade even at a loss also bounties.

I'm not sure I understood that, do you want to tell me to drop into them while casually travelling in SC from one place to another?

Most importantly you have fun things to do.

Doesn't justify why some others are boring.

 

[Stigbob]

100% disagree with your assessment. I did some Skyrim blacksmith pure grinding and it probably took around 15 to 20 minutes to get where I needed to be. Yes, dull ish, but it was 15 minutes. Elite is 100 times worse than that. At least every brass sword I made levelled me, whereas I've had 400 game hours of Elite, and I can say categorically that pharmaceutical isolators have never dropped randomly for me, nor in the first couple of hours of deliberately trying to find them. RNG at its worst.

I killed dragons instead.

You can get specific mats as mission rewards or through traders. Don't wait for HGE's drop into anything interesting, every time you do it it resets RNG so you don't sit in an unlucky instance you gather random other stuff you can trade even at a loss also bounties. Most importantly you have fun things to do.​

 

[Stigbob]

Nevermind the jump-turn-jump-turn back and forth to engineers, not getting the materials you need, limited selection of things that drop from activities you do (like raw) that you can't trade at materials traders, the punishingly high cost of using materials traders, etc. Eh, whatever, it takes exorbitant amounts of time to do it "as you go", it takes exorbitant amounts of time to get it done when you're using the most efficient "exploits" you can find, you might not be paying attention to the clock ticking but I sure as hell am.

You don't need to go back and forth, just pin the blueprint that's the whole idea behind remote engineering. I play ED maybe five or six hours a week. If your time is precious you need to play smart, do a couple of assassination missions for the mats you want you also make cash and get random mats in the kill.

When I go to bounty hunt, I kill ships not track them. Those are very different things.

Your choice, my ships are pretty much all multirole I've never been into min-maxing. Even my FDL has an SRV and scoop.

I'm not sure I understood that, do you want to tell me to drop into them while casually travelling in SC from one place to another?

Exactly that, you won't find any complaints from me about supercruise travel because I have stuff to do in it.

Also when after a specific type of signal drop into others anyway.

Doesn't justify why some others are boring.

So skip them, like I said I don't do the boring ones.

 

[Nadreck]

I made most of my money through commodities trading, and yes that was somewhat grindy, but at least each step up in ship size and cargo capacity was a clear target to aim for, and once I'd maximised my profits with a T9, I could start "diversifying". Now up to 7 ships, all very different.

I'm now engaged in multiple "grinds" simultaneously:

Unlocking Engineers
Engineering my ships
Ranking up in the Imperial Navy
Doing the first Ram Tah mission
PP module shopping (prismatics next week)
Unlocking Guardian and tech-broker items

...all at the same time. With so much to do, I can just switch from one to another. Haven't actually hauled freight for awhile now, and I keep postponing my planned trip to Sag A* and beyond because I'm too busy.

Give yourself enough different things to do, and you won't get bored.

 

[Stigbob]

I made most of my money through commodities trading, and yes that was somewhat grindy, but at least each step up in ship size and cargo capacity was a clear target to aim for, and once I'd maximised my profits with a T9, I could start "diversifying". Now up to 7 ships, all very different.

I'm now engaged in multiple "grinds" simultaneously:

Unlocking Engineers
Engineering my ships
Ranking up in the Imperial Navy
Doing the first Ram Tah mission
PP module shopping (prismatics next week)
Unlocking Guardian and tech-broker items

...all at the same time. With so much to do, I can just switch from one to another. Haven't actually hauled freight for awhile now, and I keep postponing my planned trip to Sag A* and beyond because I'm too busy.

Give yourself enough different things to do, and you won't get bored.

That's a good point, over focus on any one thing and you'll wear all the fun off it quickly. Variety is the spice of space life.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Your choice, my ships are pretty much all multirole I've never been into min-maxing. Even my FDL has an SRV and scoop.

Just so happens that the game support specialization and I do specialize, that shouldn't be with the price tag of doing boring things.

Exactly that, you won't find any complaints from me about supercruise travel because I have stuff to do in it.

Also when after a specific type of signal drop into others anyway.

I rarely if ever find HGE's in SC by accident, they only spawn in certain systems and in certain location within them, not to mention that they vary in composition depending on the system.

So skip them, like I said I don't do the boring ones.

If the game has a mechanic, it intends you to use it. Sliding a boring mechanic under the carpet solves nothing.

 

[Stigbob]

Just so happens that the game support specialization and I do specialize, that shouldn't be with the price tag of doing boring things.

So don't do them, we are only talking about one utility slot for a wake scanner it's really not a massive nerf to your specialized ship.

I rarely if ever find HGE's in SC by accident, they only spawn in certain systems and in certain location within them, not to mention that they vary in composition depending on the system.

Yes, so when you get there instead of staring at the screen grinding your teeth waiting for the right type drop into the others and reset the RNG. Variety stuff to gather and fun.

If the game has a mechanic, it intends you to use it. Sliding a boring mechanic under the carpet solves nothing.

Cobblers, the game intends that you have fun nothing more.

I never do trade beyond unlocking engineers as it's a bit dull for me, so I take a heavily armed battlewagon with the HRP's switched for cargo racks and slaughter pirates along the way. Gaining mats money and having fun in a profession I don't actually do by choice.

Making lemonade.

 

[Cageman]

Grind is in the mind!

The very fact that so many have different opinions about wether it is or not, makes me think that grind is a personal choice; a way to play the game.

Hence... the grind is in the mind of each individual.

 

[House0fDerp]

Then I guess you're in for the long haul - but it would be your choice when all's said and done.

This kind of illustrates my earlier point though regarding the game only catering to those who would never ask "Why am I playing this?" I've never seen a game that was purportedly a sandbox try so hard to cater to such a narrow segment but be expected to not draw any criticism for it.

 

[Stigbob]

This kind of illustrates my earlier point though regarding the game only catering to those who would never ask "Why am I playing this?" I've never seen a game that was purportedly a sandbox try so hard to cater to such a narrow segment but be expected to not draw any criticism for it.

Wrong question you should be asking "how can I do 'X' in a fun and non-grindy way".

 

[CariadocThorne]

It doesn't take months. As a rule I only ever trade up, but I'll go one for three when getting rare stuff usually I do it via missions. Just pin the blueprint and then you can finish it off as and when you get the bits, there isn't a rush and you can G4 most things just with what's in storage from random USS's and scooping while your shield recharge.

Exactly this. Visit the engineer once, pin the blueprint you want, get G1 and a special effect if you want one, then every time you finish a mission or hand in some bounties or whatever, check the remote engineering and see if there are any you can take up a grade. It's surprising how quick they go if you don't force it.

If having various ships and kits is how you get your kicks what then?

Then you are choosing to grind. Still not the game's fault. If I play an MMO like ESO or WoW, and set my goal as having every possible equipment set, I'm gonna have a lot of grinding, but I chose it. Same in ED.

What annoys me is that the grind isn't particularly engaging. Some are amusing like SRV driving or hacking through a planet base but flying around in loops for HGEs or scanning the wakes of ships out of the station is boring even if you do it only a few times and both of those are the only way to get a good amount of industrial materials.

Not any more. You don't have to fly loops any more, HGE's spawn in shipping lanes now, so you can literally pick up G5 materials while flying from the star to your destination planet or station. Just pay attention and you will gather even the rarest materials as you go, and never have to go hunting for them again.

Nevermind the jump-turn-jump-turn back and forth to engineers, not getting the materials you need, limited selection of things that drop from activities you do (like raw) that you can't trade at materials traders, the punishingly high cost of using materials traders, etc. Eh, whatever, it takes exorbitant amounts of time to do it "as you go", it takes exorbitant amounts of time to get it done when you're using the most efficient "exploits" you can find, you might not be paying attention to the clock ticking but I sure as hell am.

Why are you in such a rush? A lot of us don't get much time to play, that just makes it more important to enjoy the time you do have, not waste it grinding for progression, in a game which doesn't have an endgame, and where progression is totally optional.

This kind of illustrates my earlier point though regarding the game only catering to those who would never ask "Why am I playing this?" I've never seen a game that was purportedly a sandbox try so hard to cater to such a narrow segment but be expected to not draw any criticism for it.

That's kind of the point of a sandbox. You don't have to do anything you don't want to. There are so many ways to spend your time in this game, it's hardly catering to a narrow segment. It's not catering to those who would never ask "Why am I playing this?" It's catering to those who never put themselves in the position of having to ask that in the first place.

 

[House0fDerp]

That's kind of the point of a sandbox. You don't have to do anything you don't want to. There are so many ways to spend your time in this game, it's hardly catering to a narrow segment. It's not catering to those who would never ask "Why am I playing this?" It's catering to those who never put themselves in the position of having to ask that in the first place.

By definition, whose who would never ask that question aren't asking that question, so you're fundamentally agreeing there. There are plenty of ways to spend your time, but the game segments certain activities such that activity 'x' does not yield reward 'y'. Or if it does you're down to RNG to determine if it rewards 'y' right now vs the next time the dice are rolled. Or might specify you have to do 'x' in a specific way to get 'y' (IE: scooping mats from downed ships). All of that tends to vary what you'd otherwise be doing when otherwise flying.

Some apparently don't care about dropping out of supercruise for random USSs and staying around to scoop the droppings when you down a ship in a res or mission. I don't find the scooping fun personally, but to turn bounty hunting into mats I need to. Otherwise I can't get mats. So I have a choice, downgrade my experience bounty hunting, or take more time doing something more directly related to material gathering, which will be faster than scoop hunting, but inherently worse. Or we just forget that path exists (pretty much where I am).

Now is that not the game's fault? The game literally sets the bounds of what rewards what. It also sets the timeframe of the rewards. It also controls directly the "fun" of every activity. It controls how engaging each method of gathering is.

The only player controlled aspect is how much of the game we're willing to interface with but not the number of mechanics we get to use because that's derived from the design of the game. So yes, the game is designed for those who will not question the use of time as a barrier. The game's design puts potency and variety against active time that it values differently according to the activity. The choice then is to simply give up on time or "grind" and the latter is undesirable, thus the only solution is that the design was indeed for people who aren't going to think about time.

Wrong question you should be asking "how can I do 'X' in a fun and non-grindy way".

The answer, per the responses here, is to not do it and do something else till it just happens but, per the question above, do I hit the point of getting that reward that way before I start asking myself if I care about it anymore?

And the follow up question becomes "what was the point in designing it in such a way that asking that question becomes common?" As for whether it is common, how many threads about grind have we had?

 

[Devari]

I've noticed that when players talk about the game getting boring, they usually get accused for 'grinding' the game. I myself haven't made any threads or comments about Elite Dangerous getting boring, but I disagree that the player should be blamed for grinding the game.

Of course the players shouldn't be blamed, the grinds in the game are entirely a result of FD trying to stretch a few hours of content into a massive grind. The Guardian technology is a good example of this, they have maybe 2 hours of "content" that is stretched over 12 hours of grind in order to unlock the weapons and modules. Anyone who tries to call that "not a grind" is straight-up lying to themselves.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Well, blame is strong word here.

If you don't enjoy activities in the game, no amount of interesting interaction will keep you play it. That's simple truth of it.

I don't see it as blame. Lot of players are used to specific ways to play game and they struggle to avoid mindset which makes them to grind. Players can tune way they do that and enjoy game.

Or not if they insist to do things how they are used to.

 

[House0fDerp]

Well, blame is strong word here.

If you don't enjoy activities in the game, no amount of interesting interaction will keep you play it. That's simple truth of it.

I imagine for most they enjoy a subset of things but those things don't reward what they want short of significant alteration or doing that activity until the heat death of the universe to get what they need.