Anti ADS people JUSTIFY your no compromise stance here.

[Riverside]

Interesting to read the various views in this thread.

I can see that the OP is becoming frustrated with mis-understandings (some accidental, some seemingly deliberate). I'd like to suggest that the OP take a step back from arguing their case and simply let the feedback come. Overall reasoning can then be summarised in the OP, perhaps with a count for each broad type.

The main takeaway so far seems to be that players don't want to lose what they already have, which is an understandable (but unjustified) concern.

There is no benefit to discussing ways in which the ADS could be restricted beyond what it currently in the game in any system that is already tagged (ie the way it works in the bubble right now).

 

[aaaabcv]

To maybe answer the OP (and I too think that it really needs not again a thread about "that same topic" over and over):

The ADS has been removed (probably) because FD wanted it that way. They (probably) wanted it that way because the ADS was crititized to be too uninvolving and mighty.
I see no way that FD themselves will go back and put the ADS mechanic back in. They have developed a machinic which actually replaces the way on how you are populating an unexplored systems map. Why? Because they think the way they are doing it is great and the old way was not.
Can it be imprioved? Yes, but not by adding the old behavior. Why not? Because FD in this case add something new by replacing an machanic with purpose and there are also many People very liking it thereby supporting their decision. I'd advise to suggest on how to make the FSS better instead wanting something back which has been removed on purpose - I blelieve you have better chances of getting what you want.
And I mean it without taking any Position whether your claim is valid or not.

Regarding your Points 1) - c). If I were to want a Scanner (the powerful Universal Discovery Scanner UDS) which would reveal a whole sector's bodies like the ADS did - without giving me any credits. Would you consider it a good idea just because I do not get an Advantage of it or does effect anybody else? I'd not because it gives me instant Knowledge you would not have, same as the ADS does reveal the system map whereas the FSS does not - you have to do it manually. You like the one or the other better - both is valid. But the decision has been made and it has been removed with the Intention not to have both of it because doing "work" (meaning game play) for populating the System map was not considered to be an optional step by the game designers. Thats given. As Long as people like it (and that's given too) there is no reason for FD to Change it because it works.

You would be better off to invest your Energy to think about what you'd Change to the FSS to make it more appealing/challenging/conventient for you to do it. If I were FD I'd be glad to know that because that's what they will listen to. They implemented a feature which works great for a lot of People and a lot of other People are complaining. Ok. So they will want to know how to improve their great idea and fine tune it so that the complainers would become less. I'm sure that considering the FSS optional was a discussion internally already Long before 3.3 was released and there had been a decision made. Some Things can be influenced I think and others will hardly be and I'd bet that reintroducing old game mechanics would be the last Thing they'd consider.

And be honest to yourself. These threads are not so endless because everybody is of the opinion that the ADS was so cool and can exist in parallel or should be reintroduced again or the FSS is the ultimative solution. It's because there are a lot of different opinions and the topic is polarizing. So whatever FD will do to make a compromise will catch fire so they will avoid a compromise like hell and just let the topic settle until every opinion has been posted so often that nobody wants to see it anymore.

 

[Stigbob]

Devs saying the ADS was a placeholder is a myth that was repeated on the forum so many times that it became "truth". Only thing the devs have said at the time was regretting giving the ADS unlimited range. But given that the FSS has, you've guessed it, unlimited range as well, it seems that unlimited ranges is no longer seen as a concern.

Them removing it and replacing with something better proves beyond any doubt it was a placeholder.

 

[Leper Messiah]

Triple sigh, YES i would be against them bringing it back

1) for lack of any compelling reason to bring it back
2) a majority of players would not use it/ do not want it/ do not care
3) it sets a precedent that if even a small group whines loud enough, they get what they want
4) it would add nothing to the game that is not already there (FSS is now part of the game. If we had FSS from the start, I doubt anyone would be calling for an ADS-like feature)

1)in YOUR opinion
2)so I won't care about the majority then
3)and if it has no impact on anyone else why does it matter?
4)it adds something for some players(just not you), conjecture at the end impossible to prove

It insta revealed every single object in a system. A few bits of information is neither here nor there. The only reason to fly to an Earthlike or Water World was for credits or tags and that is the exact same now. The information it possessed is meaningless unless you can land on that planet which again is the same now.

For some reason some people thought getting that information is exploring. It is not. It is useless information gathering. The only planets you can actually explore are the ones you can land on. This has not changed in the new version. To explore them, you still need to travel to them. You cannot sit in orbit around the main star and explore the planets, or rings around planets/stars/moons or explore strange oribitals. You still need to travel there.

The only difference now is that we need to discover these things ourselves with the tools provided.

The only thing the ADS does is forfeit gameplay for the sake of getting to see something new. Something that I do not thing should be in the game and shouldn't have been in from the word go.

I can see it know, if the ADS is put back in there would be the usual complaints that there is no gameplay or any tools in exploration as all discovery would again be done with a 5 second press of a button, again.

So the only conclusion I can get is that people wan't a short cut to avoid the gameplay. It would be like doing a raid, avoiding the bit in between and going straight loot.

All the gameplay they had before is still there, it hasn't gone away, it is just now behind another gameplay wall instead, which should have been there from the very beginning.

Adding the old ADS in would be a waste of dev time, could introduce more bugs, could have compatibilty issues with the current system as the codex and other stuff looks like it as been re/made to work with the FSS.

And for those saying when in the bubble that it is exactly the same as when we had the old ADS, it is not. It only gathers the planets that have been scanned and tagged. If there are planets 100,000ls away that nobody decided to tag as it was too far away, they will not show up after the honk. It is not the same system. Similar, yes, but not the same.

so what if it insta revealed every object, how does that affect you? You only need to fly to an ELW or WW to map it, you get first discovered sat in the warm glow of the entry sun...is THAT exploring?

who cares what YOU think is exploring or not?

Hello Mcfly the FSS will still be there....(I give up)

The dev time (already in op) and bugs introduction (adding to op number 3)are valid concerns well done

Because it still involves bringing back the ADS, which is honestly pointless. The FSS is a slotless scanner, and fulfills the role as Frontier desires. But let’s play pretend a minute, the ADS is restored. Your account balance is charged the amount of credits you have already been credited and... if you’ve already filled the slot previously occupied by the now absent ADS with something else, that module is removed to storage so the ADS can be restored.

Only for you to discover that it no longer can tell you the location of a mission target, as that portion of game coding was removed to make way for new FSS functionality. But to accommodate, that code is reinjected, but this causes an issue with the FSS now, leaving the only solution to be a full rollback to 3.2, causing everything everyone else has done since the launch, including all that Void Opal mining to be wiped, and suddenly you “I can’t go on without the ADS” types are more hated by the rest of the community than station tanners, tankers and psychopaths. People who would never otherwise engage in PvP suddenly swarm to Kill the ADS squadron and hunt you into bankruptcy, driving you into solo, as even Mobius declares open season on anyone with an ADS.

Or, if you’re on a low melodrama diet like me, you can liken this to when the telephone providers said “that’s it, no more rotory (pulse) dialing, everything goes touch-tone.” Why? I knew more than a few 70+ year old folks who were just beside themselves the day those new fangled phones showed up, free of charge, and sobbed when they had to plug them in and take out their technological holdovers that were preventing the wide-spread adoption of newer technology and innovations, simply because it meant pushing a button to send a digital signal instead of turning a dial to send an analog pulse.

Or how about when Microsoft pulled the plug on Windows XP? Or the Red Hat repositories were changed? Or Motorola dumped Apple and there were no more Machintoshes?

Did any of them consult with you first to make sure it was ok?

As for the purpose of Focused Feedback, and how it confirms Elite is not Design-by-Committee... why they do it, I can’t speak on their behalf, only share my own observations. It appears to be a sort of pre-beta sneak peek into what they’re going to do along with a window of opportunity for us to field suggestions that will improve these new features.

There were a few, a very few, who tried to cling to the ADS in the FF, but clearly this was not to be, as here we are.

So here’s a tissue. Dry your collective eyes and embrace the future, it is now.

Can I get a :



?

I seriously do not understand where you're getting that hyperbole of (returning the ADS will break exploring) from ...just wut?

No you don't get a fatality, you get a "well done you're on LM ignore list" I just cannot get down to your level.

I have been playing a lot Elite the last few weeks jumping around the bubble as well as exploring a bit while I was piecing together my exploraion ship for Distant Worlds. I collected material, I explored unknown space, I did a lot of mining, I was running missions... All these tasks have been a lot more fun than before because of the new systems inlcuding the FSS. I've been finding materials easier, I was able to see which planets are worth visiting before I flew there and concerning the bubble, it's very hard to find a system where you don't see the system map after honking... Apart from that stations are always there, so there's really no problem with that.
Well, I really don't get why some people don't like it. The only thing that can be an issue is locating those special planets very close to suns and other planetary anomalies, on the first glance. The rest hasn't really changed apart from being able to getting even more information.

Try it, do whatever you do within the bubble without using the FSS at all. Only thing you might need to scan a nav beacon for is mission targets.

I use the FSS so can't answer for those that don't like it, but In a combined FSS/ADS compromise which there are only 3 decent concerns now people can pick and Choose what tool to use best in whatever situation, like having lasers for shields and multicannons for hull.

 

[Ian Skippy]

2)so I won't care about the majority then

I think that is a dangerous opinion to openly state when the very point of this topic is you asking the majority to care about a small minority.

 

[jasonbarron]

Interesting to read the various views in this thread.

I can see that the OP is becoming frustrated with mis-understandings (some accidental, some seemingly deliberate).

What gave it away? All of the melodramatic sighing that accompanied each and every response he's typed in the thread?

 

[Jukelo]

And the ADS prevents none from using the FSS.

It does. It's a tool that gives you the information the FSS does, but instantly and without effort. Anybody who knows anything about game design and player psychology will tell you, if the ADS and FSS coexist, the FSS will never be used.

And so far I haven't seen any realistic suggestion as to how the ADS could be gimped that would lead players to pick the FSS over the ADS.

 

[Old Duck]

It does. It's a tool that gives you the information the FSS does, but instantly and without effort. Anybody who knows anything about game design and player psychology will tell you, if the ADS and FSS coexist, the FSS will never be used.

And so far I haven't seen any realistic suggestion as to how the ADS could be gimped that would lead players to pick the FSS over the ADS.

I believe you are... confused..

 

[Leper Messiah]

Because things change. Game mechanics are supposed to change over time. The ADS was not a solemn promise, it was a placeholder mechanic used to fill the gap between release and the current implementation. The Exploration community has been howling for a significant change. Well, it's here and we all have to adapt.

Going back to hold the hands of a few entrenched Commanders is the issue that needs justifying here.

Because "change", is not a valid reason.

If information is only considered worthwhile if it can be obtained *at a glance,* then I question exactly how worthwhile it actually is in the first place.

Nothing has been lost, no gameplay style has been removed, though some do take longer than they used to. See above for why that doesn't actually matter.

Riôt

So seeing "at a glance" by just PRESSING A BUTTON that there are ELW and WW via the FSS tuning doobry is wrong..thank you let's dump the FSS then peeps.
If you'd bother to read some posts on the subject you'd see many peoples gameplay has been negatively affected by the removal of the ADS.

Tell me your opinion, but don't include your opinion.

Erm no I said justify your opinion, but selfish reasons will not count......pretty poor showing so far and I've read EVERY post MOST of which justify their stance with purely selfish reasons. Or miss the point of the thread by a few light years.

 

[Red Anders]

You can not think of any advantage? At all? What you really really really desperately want has absolutely no advantage to you? For those tuning in: You can get all the info the ADS gave you from the FSS, but some folks want part of it faster by just holding one button for a few seconds. On which planet is that 'not an advantage'? Who is this supposed to fool?

You can get all the info the ADS used to give from the FSS.

However you also get more information, which the ADS did not give you, from the FSS.

I certainly wouldn't support a single-press honk ADS giving all the information that the FSS currently provides (most of which used to require the previously separate detail scanning) but then I haven't noticed many of the people on whom you're pouring scorn asking for that.

So I think the real question there is who exactly is your post supposed to fool? Clearly not me.

 

[[VR] Marrs]

The ADS as it was added zero game play. You hold a button for a few seconds and bingo you've scanned the entire system. What fun! Why even have the button? Surely in such an advanced ship the computer could make the scan for you as soon as you enter the system? Pointless.

 

[Leper Messiah]

We don't need the FSS to be removed. We just want the ADS back as an optional module.

The ADS as the very same old optional module would be optional. You could choose not to have it. Or choose to have it. Your call. The ADS does not overlap the FSS, it does not remove functionality from the FSS, it does not provide any advantage over the FSS.

Your outhouse would be completely intact and untouched, most you could do is to choose (or not) to optionally have a bathroom by its side.

hows your head from banging it against a brick wall?!!

So I’ve been pottering around in my diesel van these past few years but I’ve decided it’s not for me, so I’m going to see if I can get the car manufacturers to go back to steam powered engines.

You know people DO still operate steam vehicles, it's THEIR choice....this is like at the invention of the ICU ALL steam powered vehicles were destroyed...does that sound reasonable to you?

 

[Mohrgan]

Because "change", is not a valid reason.



So seeing "at a glance" by just PRESSING A BUTTON that there are ELW and WW via the FSS tuning doobry is wrong..thank you let's dump the FSS then peeps.
If you'd bother to read some posts on the subject you'd see many peoples gameplay has been negatively affected by the removal of the ADS.



Erm no I said justify your opinion, but selfish reasons will not count......pretty poor showing so far and I've read EVERY post MOST of which justify their stance with purely selfish reasons. Or miss the point of the thread by a few light years.

Change is most certainly a valid reason. FD were vilified for their exploration mechanics.

Your entire argument for the ADS back is opinion. Your opinion that the ADS was better. Bringing back the ADS is certainly just as selfish an opinion as the leave it in the bin opinion.

 

[Ian Skippy]

You can get all the info the ADS used to give from the FSS.

However you also get more information, which the ADS did not give you, from the FSS.

I certainly wouldn't support a single-press honk ADS giving all the information that the FSS currently provides (most of which used to require the previously separate detail scanning) but then I haven't noticed many of the people on whom you're pouring scorn asking for that.

So I think the real question there is who exactly is your post supposed to fool? Clearly not me.

Read it again, mate, please. I never said any of that. Again: you can populate the system map much faster using the ADS. That is called 'an advantage'. Claiming it isn't is just pointless. His claim 'there is no overlap' between ADS and FSS is also comically daft. The FSS is the combination of ADS + DSS. So obviously there is an overlap between ADS and FSS. And obviously there is some advantage to the ADS.

Can we at least just speak plainly and honestly? You want to populate the system map in a few seconds by holding a button? Fine, just an opinion. But lets not pretend that wouldn be an advantage, because if it werent nobody would be asking for it.

 

[Ian Skippy]

You know people DO still operate steam vehicles, it's THEIR choice....this is like at the invention of the ICU ALL steam powered vehicles were destroyed...does that sound reasonable to you?

Sure, you are totally allowed to build your own steam engine. Or make your own space game.

 

[askavir]

It does. It's a tool that gives you the information the FSS does, but instantly and without effort. Anybody who knows anything about game design and player psychology will tell you, if the ADS and FSS coexist, the FSS will never be used.

And so far I haven't seen any realistic suggestion as to how the ADS could be gimped that would lead players to pick the FSS over the ADS.

Wrong.

The ADS only gives you the locations of planets.

But unlike the FSS:

1 - It does not give you the precise type of planet.
2 - It does not give you the materials on the planet nor the planet detailed data.
3 - It does not tags the planets as first discovered by you.
4 - It does not give you the credits for detailed scan.
5 - It does not tell you that there are 42 fumaroles on a specific planet.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Wrong.

The ADS only gives you the locations of planets.

But unlike the FSS:

1 - It does not give you the precise type of planet.
2 - It does not give you the materials on the planet nor the planet detailed data.
3 - It does not tags the planets as first discovered by you.
4 - It does not give you the credits for detailed scan.
5 - It does not tell you that there are 42 fumaroles on a specific planet.

But it does populate the entire system map instantly, and gives the location of all planets instantly. Those are advantages. Advantages that you appreciated, and want back. Which is fine, but stop the wriggling.

 

[askavir]

Read it again, mate, please. I never said any of that. Again: you can populate the system map much faster using the ADS. That is called 'an advantage'.

And what exactly is the advantage? What precise practical benefits would you get from that over someone using the FSS?

Answer: None whatsoever.

 

[Ian Skippy]

And what exactly is the advantage? What precise practical benefits would you get from that over someone using the FSS?

Answer: None whatsoever.

You have information you want faster than with the other method. Why are you even arguing about it? Just say:"yes, I want to have the advantage of knowing a certain thing in a much quicker way than if I were to use the FSS." Then you can argue that it is an 'harmless advantage' if you want. Which would still be contestable. Because you want that advantage for a reason. You are looking for certain systems with certain properties. And with the ADS you can skim systems faster to get to the 'interesting ones'. That means that two people hunting the same stuff, one using the ADS and other not, the one with the ADS would find more interesting systems than the other bloke. Which is what Jukelo referred to: there is an advantage, and people who want whatever the advantage gives would be shooting themselves in the foot if they didnt use the ADS.

Now, you can say:"I want this advantage, and I dont really care about others when it comes to this." Which would be both fine and honest.

 

[Leper Messiah]

To maybe answer the OP (and I too think that it really needs not again a thread about "that same topic" over and over):

The ADS has been removed (probably) because FD wanted it that way. They (probably) wanted it that way because the ADS was crititized to be too uninvolving and mighty.
I see no way that FD themselves will go back and put the ADS mechanic back in. They have developed a machinic which actually replaces the way on how you are populating an unexplored systems map. Why? Because they think the way they are doing it is great and the old way was not.
Can it be imprioved? Yes, but not by adding the old behavior. Why not? Because FD in this case add something new by replacing an machanic with purpose and there are also many People very liking it thereby supporting their decision. I'd advise to suggest on how to make the FSS better instead wanting something back which has been removed on purpose - I blelieve you have better chances of getting what you want.
And I mean it without taking any Position whether your claim is valid or not.

Regarding your Points 1) - c). If I were to want a Scanner (the powerful Universal Discovery Scanner UDS) which would reveal a whole sector's bodies like the ADS did - without giving me any credits. Would you consider it a good idea just because I do not get an Advantage of it or does effect anybody else? I'd not because it gives me instant Knowledge you would not have, same as the ADS does reveal the system map whereas the FSS does not - you have to do it manually. You like the one or the other better - both is valid. But the decision has been made and it has been removed with the Intention not to have both of it because doing "work" (meaning game play) for populating the System map was not considered to be an optional step by the game designers. Thats given. As Long as people like it (and that's given too) there is no reason for FD to Change it because it works.

You would be better off to invest your Energy to think about what you'd Change to the FSS to make it more appealing/challenging/conventient for you to do it. If I were FD I'd be glad to know that because that's what they will listen to. They implemented a feature which works great for a lot of People and a lot of other People are complaining. Ok. So they will want to know how to improve their great idea and fine tune it so that the complainers would become less. I'm sure that considering the FSS optional was a discussion internally already Long before 3.3 was released and there had been a decision made. Some Things can be influenced I think and others will hardly be and I'd bet that reintroducing old game mechanics would be the last Thing they'd consider.

And be honest to yourself. These threads are not so endless because everybody is of the opinion that the ADS was so cool and can exist in parallel or should be reintroduced again or the FSS is the ultimative solution. It's because there are a lot of different opinions and the topic is polarizing. So whatever FD will do to make a compromise will catch fire so they will avoid a compromise like hell and just let the topic settle until every opinion has been posted so often that nobody wants to see it anymore.

firstly I'm actually pro FSS, but I'm not anti ADS...so I'm pro compromise, so answering some of your question is not possible.

This isn't a thread about "that" topic though, I didn't do this to discuss the merits of the FSS or the ADS as many have said it's been done to death. I did this thread for those against a compromise to justify it and the vast majority of reasons for that are selfish and frankly petty if I'm honest. Only 3 valid reasons have been brought up that I feel are objective and not subjective.

Yes the ADS ALONE was uninvolved so why didn't FD just ADD the FSS gameplay like they ADDED the new mining to the old?

It seems to me that to make the FSS better for a lot of the pro ADS side (I stand to be corrected of course) would be to populate the system map and nav panel with locations, but many pro FSS people DON'T want that so returning the ADS (possibly with tweaks) as a module seems to be the best compromise that keeps as many happy as possible....of course if it takes FD 5 years to implement and causes a shed tonne of bugs you can alll cover me in petrol and burn me alive if you all want.

Regarding FDs internal discussion, by concentrating on "earning" speed in the dev streams it became clear that's what they thought explorers wanted and the FSS facilitates that (why I like it), but many explorers developed gameplay of looking for certain types of planetary phenomena that the Stellar Forge threw up, thay cared not a jot for "earnings" or "speed", just the ability to make a quick decision on whether the system they were in was worth investigating for the unusual . FD clearly didn't account for that at all. Also with the nav panel not populating with locations those who prefer to flhy their space craft and NOT look through a telescope are pretty much shafted as well (unless they do the FSS twiddle game).

I personally think FD dropped the ball on this BIG time, more player discussion should have happened before, basically it was "here's the new mechanic...discuss", that's not too impressive in my book. If it's FD "vision" then it's a bit short sighted to royally nark of some of your loyal (and frankly the explorers where amongst the most loyal) customers.