FD utter failure: engineering brought to an excess

[NeilF]

Fair enough. I hope FD gives you something to help that doesn't take away too much from my epic good vs evil narrative. o7

In my book:-
1) Significantly dial back all combat related engineer mods/grades. It should be about gently adjusting your ships to make the most of it how you want it. Not pointless bar raising 2x the pewpew across the board. Then the NPC balancing headache might be solved too!
2) Add actual orchestrated PvP content - OPEN only CGs, and/or with OPEN only BGS missions/tasks, to push CMDRs interested in PvP togethor. Offer PvP related tasks orchestrated by the game in Powerplay. Offer PvP related tasks orchestrated by the game for opposing Powerplay (Faction) Squadrons. Heck, CQC should have been a core game development for fighters which could then have been leveraged for all the previous suggestions too. (We could have even been taking on Thargoids Scounts in them deploying from capital ships by now!)
3) Heavily penalise all habitual illegal destruction of any Pilots Federation ship in any system that is not anarchy (ie: you can get away with one or two over a given period, but then you get punished). Systems without a government should not be "anarchy". ie: So illegal destruction of a ship at Beagle Point gets reported and is not ignored.

Off you go FD!

 

[Aashenfox]

In my book:-
1) Significantly dial back all combat related engineer mods/grades. It should be about gently adjusting your ships to make the most of it how you want it. Not pointless bar raising 2x the pewpew across the board. Then the NPC balancing headache might be solved too!
2) Add actual orchestrated PvP content - OPEN only CGs, and/or with OPEN only BGS missions/tasks, to push CMDRs interested in PvP togethor. Offer PvP related tasks orchestrated by the game in Powerplay. Offer PvP related tasks orchestrated by the game for opposing Powerplay (Faction) Squadrons. Heck, CQC should have been a core game development for fighters which could then have been leveraged for all the previous suggestions too. (We could have even been taking on Thargoids Scounts in them deploying from capital ships by now!)
3) Heavily penalise all habitual illegal destruction of any Pilots Federation ship in any system that is not anarchy (ie: you can get away with one or two over a given period, but then you get punished). Systems without a government should not be "anarchy". ie: So illegal destruction of a ship at Beagle Point gets reported and is not ignored.

Off you go FD!

Include low sec as a ATR free killing zone and I'd be just about ok with most of that. Or increase the number and activity of anarchy factions.

 

[Riverside]

How Engineered mods affect gameplay 101:

Consider three playstyles: Solo, Co-op & PvP.

Playing alone (PvE), if you are good at combat, you can ignore Engineers, if you are less good you can use mods to improve your survivability & DPS.

Playing Co-op, you have a similar situation, and with special effects like healing it gives choices & allows each player in a wing to potentially specialise.

For PvP it is still viable to either agree certain rules on allowable mods or simply agree to not use any mods, the issue is more one of trust than anything else. For non-consensual, or free-form PvP there is an issue of escalation & the apparent desire to keep up with whatever the current meta is. This is where the Engineers creates issues, for any other play style one can either ignore mods altogether or they can be used to increase your options & variety of choice.

For any playstyle mods like lightweight components, or increased jump range can make a multi-role loadout more viable, or a specialised loadout even more optimised. It's a great addition to the game in many ways, only non-consensual, or freeform PvP has any downside at all really.

The way the Engineers have been implemented means that it 'encourages' you to explore aspects of the game that you might not have tried (eg mining, or travelling long distances), which is both a pro and a con, and the dice throw mechanism allows min-maxers to endlessly optimise to their hearts content while the regular player can simply have, more often than not, a straight upgrade in the direction they want.

My personal feeling is that if you are wanting to min-max your meta loadout for freeform PvP you should be prepared to put the effort in, just as you do with practising your skills, and if you just want to play the game, you can.


This imbalance of freeform PvP all started with SCBs, not Engineers. For all other play styles you simply have options to cover your particular short-comings as a Cmdr with extra equipment.

 

[sollisb]

They "shouldn't need to know", it simply should not have been done in the first place. Again, very poor choice by the organizers. If it hadn't been done, this converstaion/argument/ing match wouldn't exist. Like a lot of the other useless posts around here, this one is avoidable, and unnecessary.

No disrespect to the Op.

In fairness to the organisers;

They organised an event that saw some 11k participants
They setup web sites with info
They setup PGs which are PvE Only
They setup further PGs to cater to the large influx
They did warn on more than one occasion about open/gankers

You can lead a girl to a shoe shop.. Wait wrong line.. You can lead a horse to water...

Speaking of horses.. This one is past it's beaten to death date

 

[NeilF]

I'm an explorer. I explore in open. It's not dangerous at all, but then again, I learned how through experience, because I'm not a coward.

....

And you're pretty good at name-calling yourself, hypocrite. So don't even go there.

Sorry - But that risks the inference that someone suggesting a different view to yours on playing this computer game "is a coward"? :O

I assume you didn't mean than... We're talking about playing a computer game here, and people's views on its mechanics.

 

[voidwalker]

I get it, both sides. The problem is, there's little to no "consequences" for the "evil acts" some folks choose to commit. Until that is properly addressed, this "game" is going no where as a viable multi-player option for the masses. If things were properly addressed, there'd be no need for private PVE servers, or solo mode at all.

C&P is a joke, and hence non combative types have zero interest in playing in open. Toughen the penalties, and attitudes might change.

But that's not true. There are plenty of 'non combat types' playing in open, and loving it. I'm one of them.

Toughen the penalties? On 'crimes' in uncontrolled and unpopulated space? How does that even work? The game is designed to emulate a futuristic interstellar civilisation. It wouldn't be very immersive at all if there were penalties for attacking someone in a system out in the middle of nowhere that nobody even lives in. That's where this is happening, by the way. The penalties for criminal activity in systems with security (ie not anarchy systems) aren't light. Just because there are a few incredibly rich gankers (thanks to fast money exploits) doesn't mean the penalties need to be higher or more severe. They're already very severe. You get scanned with a bounty on you at a station you're wanted at, and you're going to have a bad day. And you can't just get rid of that bounty right away, neither. Ever since it was adopted, people have almost completely stopped trying to gank me coming back from my exploration trips in systems like Shinrarta Dezhra and Frey.

 

[voidwalker]

Sorry - But that risks the inference that someone suggesting a different view to yours on playing this computer game "is a coward"? :O

I assume you didn't mean than... We're talking about playing a computer game here, and people's views on its mechanics.

Actually, no it doesn't, it was a snip at a specific individual. Context is key, so I suggest you pay attention to it or risk making more dumb assumptions.

 

[NeilF]

Actually, no it doesn't, it was a snip at a specific individual. Context is key, so I suggest you pay attention to it or risk making more dumb assumptions.

Wow! Just wow! With a bit more wow in there too!

So now I get your special treatment too - *sigh*


edit: Spelling corrected...

 

[voidwalker]

Wow! Just wow! With a bit more wow in there too!

So now I get your special treamenet too - *sigh*

I'm sorry, you've lost me. What are you so excited about?

And what's a 'treamenet'?

 

[NeilF]

But that's not true. There are plenty of 'non combat types' playing in open, and loving it. I'm one of them.

Toughen the penalties? On 'crimes' in uncontrolled and unpopulated space? How does that even work? The game is designed to emulate a futuristic interstellar civilisation. It wouldn't be very immersive at all if there were penalties for attacking someone in a system out in the middle of nowhere that nobody even lives in. That's where this is happening, by the way. The penalties for criminal activity in systems with security (ie not anarchy systems) aren't light. Just because there are a few incredibly rich gankers (thanks to fast money exploits) doesn't mean the penalties need to be higher or more severe. They're already very severe. You get scanned with a bounty on you at a station you're wanted at, and you're going to have a bad day. And you can't just get rid of that bounty right away, neither. Ever since it was adopted, people have almost completely stopped trying to gank me coming back from my exploration trips in systems like Shinrarta Dezhra and Frey.

Consider for a second, if you get destroyed at Beagle Point by another CMDR:-
1) Somehow you and some of your data can be transmitted (instantly) back to the bubble.
2) Information about the destruction clearly is transmitted (instantly) back to the bubble.

So are you suggesting it's more or less realistic that the Pilots Federation, who supposedly take a zero tolerance view point of illegal behaviour, would ignore the notification that CMDR A has destroyed CMDR B for the giggles and is acting like a psycho? ie: There's no reason that information wouldn't reach the bubble. There no reason the Pilots Federation would ignore the transmission form a "Report Crimes On" setting.


So to my mind a far more logic mechanic from a gameplay and game world point of view?

• Anarchy systems (or should I say Anarchy Governments) actively block security transmissions such as "Report Crimes". It part of their agenda.
• Systems without a Goverment/Population should not default to "Security: Anarchy" but instead "Security: None". So at Beagle Point, there is no security to help you, BUT, "Report Crimes" will still work.

So only in active Anarchy systems will true anarchy reign (as security transmissions are blocked). But in no Government/no Population systems crimes will get reported (as security transmissions take place).

So all of a sudden some more logical penalties can be applied to ganking, and indeed, withing a good sized around around the bubble the ATR can even rock up too!

Seems to make far more sense to me from a gameplay and game world POV...

 

[sollisb]

I'll take that challenge. Show me your minmaxed, as long range as possible, no defense considered build, and I'll show you how much you need to compromise to survive a gank. We need to agree on victory conditions...If I get within 4ly, I win, k?

Up to my bottom in code here, Later tonight ?


Wanna pick a specific ship ?

purely as a just for giggles?

 

[NeilF]

I'm sorry, you've lost me. What are you so excited about?

And what's a 'treamenet'?

I was confused why you're levelling the suggestion of someone being "a coward" when we're just talking about a computer game. Hence me highlighting this and suggesting maybe you simply didn't mean it.

Strangely, you then use the opportunity to then level the suggestion I'm making "dumb assumptions".

So generally, I was just taken aback by your behaviour. Hence "Just wow!"


Note: Treamenet" is a pooly spell corrected "treatment"...

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

In my book:-
1) Significantly dial back all combat related engineer mods/grades. It should be about gently adjusting your ships to make the most of it how you want it. Not pointless bar raising 2x the pewpew across the board. Then the NPC balancing headache might be solved too!

Where do people come up with this nonsense?
Do you do any engineering at all?


It's easy to get double the defensive benefit vs offense, with engineering.
That's without even trying.
Defensive bloat has far outpaced offense.

 

[Kotuma]

Fair enough. I hope FD gives you something to help that doesn't take away too much from my epic good vs evil narrative. o7

And once again, we are really, honestly, trying to work on game methods to combat the griefing. It probably wont' come soon, but some fine minds are at work as we speak.

Really hopeful about this.

I think elite should accommodate various play styles, but right now ganking is fueled by more than just lulz and sociopathy. Economics outside of the game (twitch eyeballs) make it a more attractive play style, while rules in the game don’t effectively punish it (having a nearby anarchy station where gankers can repair quickly and get back to their terrorism doesn’t help). That the gankers are often full-time players streaming all day, and taking out casual players who play a few hours at night after the kids are in bed, isn’t an indictment against the low skills of the ganked players, but a reflection of an outside-the-game imbalance that the game hasn’t corrected for.

I think also that a lot of frustration with ganking is that, while we can build to mitigate it, what we’re building to mitigate against doesn’t make any sense from a roleplaying or in-game perspective. What terrorist organization is traveling to Beagle Point to kill underarmoured explorers? What’s their issue, that we’ll map too many stars? Were they hired by Selene Jean because she wasn’t getting enough business? Distant Worlds is roleplay-heavy, with deep engagement in in-universe lore. That’s a valid playstyle too, but it is difficult to maintain when getting ganked by players that just want to add you to their murder scoreboard.

I’d be happy if ganking existed but presented real challenges. Like, sure, you can gank 1000 ships on an expedition, but if you get taken down, you’re going to have to make the whole trip back out again, and no decent station is going to sell you anything to help you do that, and every system authority will shoot you on sight. Meaningful ganking is all I’m asking for.

 

[Aashenfox]

Up to my bottom in code here, Later tonight ?


Wanna pick a specific ship ?

purely as a just for giggles?

Sure, shoot me a pm when you've posted (or a rep or whatever, just so I know), otherwise I might miss it About which ship... I recognise, as do you, that the smaller the ship gets, the harder the task becomes. I won't deny it's very easy to prove my point with a Krait Phantom, not so much with an Asp, but I still think I could probably do it

 

[Kotuma]

Where do people come up with this nonsense?
Do you do any engineering at all?


It's easy to get double the defensive benefit vs offense, with engineering.
That's without even trying.
Defensive bloat has far outpaced offense.

Yeah, respectfully disagree with OP on this, engineering isn’t the problem, other game mechanics are. My jumpaconda should be a simple kill for a dedicated PvP build. But the zero-consequences world where that PvP player can still deal with lawful stations and factions leaves room for murder with impunity that hurts the game for many players. Notoriety should mean serious consequences that make play challenging.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

C&P can extend in to anarchy and unpopulated systems, in a lore friendly way.

Basically, whatever happens in those systems is logged, but not acted upon.
So assault and murder are logged, and notoriety and bounties added. But nothing else. No security response.

You can kill all day and night within impunity.


Until you return to civilization.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

C&P can extend in to anarchy and unpopulated systems, in a lore friendly way.

Basically, whatever happens in those systems is logged, but not acted upon.
So assault and murder are logged, and notoriety and bounties added. But nothing else. No security response.

You can kill all day and night within impunity.


Until you return to civilization.

But, that's not anarchy.

If there are no witnesses...?

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

But, that's not anarchy.

If there are no witnesses...?

Well the victim survives.
It can be for pilot federation members only, because NPC's don't get escape pods, unless we're not there to see them use them.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

Well the victim survives.
It can be for pilot federation members only, because NPC's don't get escape pods, unless we're not there to see them use them.

"Objection your honor! That lousy Cmdr obviously crashed into an asteroid!"