Roadmap leaked??

[VR jefranklin18]

No it wasn't. The LEP was sold to push the kickstarter. Anyone below (I think) £85 was encouraged to up their pledge to help the kickstarter meet its goal. I do not ever recall (this means I could be wrong) seeing "Buy the lifetime expansion pass and we'll promise to deliver walking around"

@Barking Mad - Did you see WHY I tagged as many as I did? I don't think so. Think about it, what did I achieve?

The kickstarter finished around January 2013; the LEP was on sale (note not the Kickstarter tier but as a product) until July 2013 (according to the newsletter link provided above). The newsletter contains the following quote (emphasis mine). :

We do intend to release small, free updates after launch, but expansions that include significant new features and content will be charged for separately. For example, our current roadmap is to add (in no particular order):

• Landing/ driving / prospecting on airless rocky planets, moons & asteroids
• Walking around interiors and combative boarding of other ships
• Combat and other interactions with other players and AIs in the internal areas of star ports
• Accessing richly detailed planetary surfaces
• Availability of giant ‘executive control’ ships to players

I am not sure how much more evidence you need?

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

The kickstarter finished around January 2013; the LEP was on sale (note not the Kickstarter tier but as a product) until July 2013 (according to the newsletter link provided above). The newsletter contains the following quote (emphasis mine). :



I am not sure how much more evidence you need?

Because there are words such as intend and current. That means they are not set in stone or a promise. Personally I believe that they still fully intend to add those things in. But to do them well, will take time. Two years to add space legs is about right as it is a huge amount of work if they intend to do it properly.

I am still hopefull that we will get atmospherics too.

 

[Barking_Mad]

@Barking Mad - Did you see WHY I tagged as many as I did? I don't think so. Think about it, what did I achieve? Why did I even bother tagging David Walsh when I know full well he's only ever made two posts on this forum (search for posts by him if you don't believe me)?

You've lost me, sorry. I just wanted to know why you tagged David in if, as you subsequently said,

"I know this is hard to accept, but things David Braben says does not equal things that are actually coming. Otherwise we'd have big game hunting in Elite Dangerous by now. "

If he said "Yes, they're both coming at some point", you'd have what? Believed him or not believed him?

 

[VR jefranklin18]

Because there are words such as intend and current. That means they are not set in stone or a promise. Personally I believe that they still fully intend to add those things in. But to do them well, will take time. Two years to add space legs is about right as it is a huge amount of work if they intend to do it properly.

I am still hopefull that we will get atmospherics too.

This is starting to get into arguing semantics so I will give it a rest after this but to me it reads that the intention appears to release smaller free updates (something that has been done admirably ).

We know that Frontier were working on an Elite successor in various different forms since 2001 IIRC (first leaked concept art) and were able to demo ship vs ship combat hands on play shortly after the Kickstarter commenced. Therefore, I believe they have been working on the 2020 update in some shape or form for (potentially significantly) more than 2 years (prototyping or whatever) but that is just my belief and have no real evidence to that.

 

[Alien]

You've lost me, sorry. I just wanted to know why you tagged David in if, as you subsequently said,



If he said "Yes, they're both coming at some point", you'd have what? Believed him or not believed him?

I took a risk, I knew I was taking risk in tagging David Braben. It could so easily have backfired and seen me banned from everything. Why did I tag him? To get an answer, and I got an answer. By Tagging high-level people like David Braben and David Walsh, I was pushing things to the limit of where I should push them. I don't want to say I'd do it again, but I also won't say I wouldn't.

If David had responded directly to me (I didn't for one moment think he would .... but let's go with the "what if he did?") ... I probably would have been surprised to get an answer from him, and not the Community Managers like Zac or Paige, and yes I might have believed it, in a "DAVID BRABEN SAID SO" response, or I might have PM'd Zac/Paige/Will to clarify if this really was true and if I could go public with it. Given that I'm trying to rebuild bridges, I'd probably sought confirmation.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

This is starting to get into arguing semantics so I will give it a rest after this but to me it reads that the intention appears to release smaller free updates (something that has been done admirably ).

It isn't semantics as those words mean something different to a promise. But I agree with the rest of the above.

We know that Frontier were working on an Elite successor in various different forms since 2001 IIRC (first leaked concept art) and were able to demo ship vs ship combat hands on play shortly after the Kickstarter commenced. Therefore, I believe they have been working on the 2020 update in some shape or form for (potentially significantly) more than 2 years (prototyping or whatever) but that is just my belief and have no real evidence to that.

I completely agree. That is also my belief. It's just the word "promise" that I find a bit too strong. I also think they have had a small team working on this update for a while now and it has got to the stage where they need most of the team on it and left a small team to work on ED in the interim.

I also think that atmospherics will come down the line too. I am pretty sure that Dr Anthony Ross is now in charge of planets, so he must have a team working on something too. Interesting times are coming I suspect whether it is atmospherics or EVA/FPP gameplay.

 

[Barking_Mad]

I took a risk, I knew I was taking risk in tagging David Braben. It could so easily have backfired and seen me banned from everything. Why did I tag him? To get an answer, and I got an answer. By Tagging high-level people like David Braben and David Walsh, I was pushing things to the limit of where I should push them. I don't want to say I'd do it again, but I also won't say I wouldn't.

Im pretty sure David doesn't ban people from asking a question.

If David had responded directly to me (I didn't for one moment think he would .... but let's go with the "what if he did?") ... I probably would have been surprised to get an answer from him, and not the Community Managers like Zac or Paige, and yes I might have believed it, in a "DAVID BRABEN SAID SO" response, or I might have PM'd Zac/Paige/Will to clarify if this really was true and if I could go public with it. Given that I'm trying to rebuild bridges, I'd probably sought confirmation.

So you might have believed David had he replied, but you dont believe him when he replied in 2017,

“It’s coming, but obviously it’s not imminent, but it is coming and it is planned.”

I mean, he could have changed his mind since then and decided to not do it. But he hasn't and Frontier haven't (edit: said anything) - so until then I'll be cautiously optimistic that they're both still coming. If they don't, then it will be disappointing, but it's just a game.

 

[Alien]

So you might have believed David had he replied, but you dont believe him when he replied in 2017,

I believe it's not as simple as the CEO saying something, and that there's more to do when it comes to business decisions. Many people have criticised Chris Roberts for agreeing to pretty much everything the community suggested in the early days of Star Citizen's development. Just because Chris Roberts says "Yeah! we'll do that!" doesn't mean they will. The same is true of David Braben. If he says anything about Elite Dangerous, yeah I'll take him at his word, but I'll also wait and see how likely it is to actually happen.

I've been on this forum for a long time. Talked about rumours of Elite 4 being a chunk of code on David's hard drive. Watched the cancellation of The Outsider. Pushed Frontier to make Elite 4. Been here when the kickstarter was announced. Read every comment every day for 60 days. Seen a lot of things said by various people at Frontier.

And you're baiting me with "You'd believe David now but not then?" and think I'm that inexperienced around here?

 

[Barking_Mad]

I believe it's not as simple as the CEO saying something, and that there's more to do when it comes to business decisions. Many people have criticised Chris Roberts for agreeing to pretty much everything the community suggested in the early days of Star Citizen's development. Just because Chris Roberts says "Yeah! we'll do that!" doesn't mean they will. The same is true of David Braben. If he says anything about Elite Dangerous, yeah I'll take him at his word, but I'll also wait and see how likely it is to actually happen.

I've been on this forum for a long time. Talked about rumours of Elite 4 being a chunk of code on David's hard drive. Watched the cancellation of The Outsider. Pushed Frontier to make Elite 4. Been here when the kickstarter was announced. Read every comment every day for 60 days. Seen a lot of things said by various people at Frontier.

And you're baiting me with "You'd believe David now but not then?" and think I'm that inexperienced around here?

I was asking a question as you contradicted yourself, that's all.

Edit: Im not baiting you btw.

 

[Alien]

I was asking a question as you contradicted yourself, that's all.

Edit: Im not baiting you btw.

No I didn't, and yes you are.

 

[VR Golgot]

Let's correct this .... yet again ....
"Space Legs" otherwise referred to as walking around, or EVA (Extra-Vehicular Activity) was NOT promised during the kickstarter. The only things promised were those specified in the actual pledges. The closet Frontier got to promising walking around, and the same is true of atmospheric landings, was "we'll see" (I'm paraphrasing, but that was pretty much what was said).

THIS COMMUNITY has played Chinese whispers with things like this over the past 7 years. Some people remember what actually happened, and some engage in wishful thinking. It is very important to know which is which.

Your memory is completely errant Alien, soz mate. They went far far beyond "we'll see".

They sold pre-orders with Legs cited on both the store page and the hype material. They discussed how "You will be able to walk around inside your ship" etc in the Kickstarter roadmap vid. And they did the same for Atmospherics. To argue that all of this isn't a published, pre-sold roadmap is a bizarre stance.


Elite Dangerous Expansion Pass Store Page (circa July 2014):

We intend to continue expanding the game both with new content and new features. A good example of this is planetary landings. We have an ambitious goal for landings to include new gameplay and a rich variety of worlds to explore. To achieve our goal we want the planets to come to life. We also want to add leaving the ships so you can explore space stations or board enemy vessels or even just to look around your own. We intend to release small, free updates after launch, but major expansions including rich new features will be charged for, unless you have bought the expansion pass

Newsletter 29: Lifetime Expansion Pass - to be withdrawn from sale

For example, our current roadmap is to add (in no particular order):

• Landing/ driving / prospecting on airless rocky planets, moons & asteroids
• Walking around interiors and combative boarding of other ships
• Combat and other interactions with other players and AIs in the internal areas of star ports
• Accessing richly detailed planetary surfaces
• Availability of giant ‘executive control’ ships to players

Alpha and Premium Beta customers, and those who have already bought the £35 expansion pass alongside either Beta or the full game, will have access to all these features and updates for as long as we create them at no further cost.

Newsletter 32: 'To Launch, and Beyond with the Lifetime Expansion Pass

We also plan to allow you to get up out of your seat and walk around your ship. You can see the level of attention and thought that has already been given to the ship interiors from these ship cockpit views in this video:

Of course walking round your ship will be nice, but it is the just springboard for a very significant expansion of gameplay – you will be able to experience the inside of starports and interact with other players and AI characters, and even board other people’s ships in space and take them by force, as shown in this concept piece.

Of course this will be further expanded to include walking around on the surfaces of planets too.

Alpha and Premium Beta customers, and those who have already bought the £35 Lifetime Expansion Pass alongside either Beta or the full game, will have access to all these features and updates for as long as we create them at no further cost.

Elite: Dangerous Development Plan (hosted on Kickstarter page - Dec 2014)

You will be able to walk around inside your ship, you'll be able to get out of your ship walk around inside space stations, other vehicles, all of that sort of thing.

You will be able to walk around the spaceport, you will be able to see gold being loaded into someone else's ship, you will be able to sneak in and hide in amongst the cargo, all of those things

 

[Ambroza]

I took a risk, I knew I was taking risk in tagging David Braben. It could so easily have backfired and seen me banned from everything.

You are vastly overestimating the gravity of a Twitter @...

 

[JesusRocks1988]

Your memory is completely errant Alien, soz mate. They went far far beyond "we'll see".

They sold pre-orders with Legs cited on both the store page and the hype material. They discussed how "You will be able to walk around inside your ship" etc in the Kickstarter roadmap vid. And they did the same for Atmospherics. To argue that all of this isn't a published, pre-sold roadmap is a bizarre stance.


Elite Dangerous Expansion Pass Store Page (circa July 2014):




Newsletter 29: Lifetime Expansion Pass - to be withdrawn from sale



Newsletter 32: 'To Launch, and Beyond with the Lifetime Expansion Pass



Elite: Dangerous Development Plan (hosted on Kickstarter page - Dec 2014)

Welp, that's pretty definitive.

 

[Stigbob]

I know this is hard to accept, but things David Braben says does not equal things that are actually coming. Otherwise we'd have big game hunting in Elite Dangerous by now.
Frontier have a marketing dept and a PR dept and Community Managers for a reason, and believe it or not, David Braben can, and probably is, often overruled on more things than we realise.

He said it would be cool, he didn't make specific promises about it. Its like space legs they'd like to do it but they've always said it depends on being financially viable and technically possible.

The are all possibilities not certainties.

 

[moorison]

I would hazard a guess that you can't build on certain places. There would be rules involved. If there is an obstruction, like a commander then you can't put anything there. You are already instanced with the other person so it doesn't matter. If you are not instanced, well that's fine, once you leave the instance and then come back, the new part will be there. If you have parked your ship there, then I would have base defence and have a proximity area where ships are not allowed to in and will be fired upon after a certain time unless you have permission from the owner. I'm sure it won't be difficult to sort out.

Indestructible base defenses or something we see around the generated bases, that can be put offline?
I actually agree with your point that in an empty instance, the requests could be checked and implemented. That would imply that the structures could not "grow" visibly and if somebody else is visiting the location, perhaps in a different instance, there would either be a disconnect
(

• you have built new defenses and wait for them to complete, log out
• somebody else is visiting, there are still no defenses, stays there just for fun
• you log back in, after the defenses should be finished and they are in your instance while
• that somebody's instance hasn't got the message that something changed.

Until there is a forced disconnect, another visitor could instance with you and gets fired upon, leaves and instances with the other person, which instance has no defenses​

)
or these changes would be delayed until there are guaranteed no visitors at the location, during downtime.

why? update to exploration data are added and seen by all other palyers instantly.

Sure, how significant is a different text for a player jumping into a system? These are passive changes, not like the official discoverer could randomly change the planets orbits while somebody else is flying around there for example, which would be as significant as somebody building his base while having visitors.

Best thing to expect I believe is a surface access structure that has to be requested while docked at some starport, traveling there and expanding it underground, in a separate instance. But again, what would be the point, if the focus of the game is flying a spaceship ?
(I am not saying space legs are stupid, but I would focus on the traveling around part).

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Indestructible base defenses or something we see around the generated bases, that can be put offline?
I actually agree with your point that in an empty instance, the requests could be checked and implemented. That would imply that the structures could not "grow" visibly and if somebody else is visiting the location, perhaps in a different instance, there would either be a disconnect
(

• you have built new defenses and wait for them to complete, log out
• somebody else is visiting, there are still no defenses, stays there just for fun
• you log back in, after the defenses should be finished and they are in your instance while
• that somebody's instance hasn't got the message that something changed.

Until there is a forced disconnect, another visitor could instance with you and gets fired upon, leaves and instances with the other person, which instance has no defenses​

)
or these changes would be delayed until there are guaranteed no visitors at the location, during downtime.

You misunderstand. Base defences could be there from the beginning when you put your first bit down. Also why would someone just sit there for potentially days or weeks in the hope you turn up. It's not like an engineer's base when you are virtually guaranteed someone to turn up in good time. It looks like you are looking for issues which are easily surmountable or not even there.

 

[moorison]

You misunderstand. Base defences could be there from the beginning when you put your first bit down. Also why would someone just sit there for potentially days or weeks in the hope you turn up. It's not like an engineer's base when you are virtually guaranteed someone to turn up in good time. It looks like you are looking for issues which are easily surmountable or not even there.

Sure, I don't expect that to happen regularly, perhaps it is more like an edge case.
I just don't expect these kind of live updates in a game where changes to the world only happen during downtime, why should Frontier change their strategy at this point exactly?

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Sure, I don't expect that to happen regularly, perhaps it is more like an edge case.
I just don't expect these kind of live updates in a game where changes to the world only happen during downtime, why should Frontier change their strategy at this point exactly?

They are giving themselves over two years to sort out any issues. I'm sure they can do it.

 

[VR Golgot]

He said it would be cool, he didn't make specific promises about it. Its like space legs they'd like to do it but they've always said it depends on being financially viable and technically possible.

The are all possibilities not certainties.

Nah, they are distinct. Like you said, the dino hunting stuff was an example flung out there occasionally, a fun possibility.

The Legs stuff had much firmer language used on the bigger bones of it ('You will be able to walk around a spaceport' etc), and those bigger bones are written into financial purchases like the LEP. Pretty distinct.

None of it means it's all nailed on to be delivered, for sure, but the language on the bigger stuff is certainly 'promise' tier in those examples, and borderline contractual regarding LEP sale info.

Trying to cast this stuff as 'Yeah that'd be cool' pronouncements is downplaying way, way too much.

 

[VR jefranklin18]

Trying to cast this stuff as 'Yeah that'd be cool' pronouncements is downplaying way, way too much.

It's a simple case of consumer law; you can't sell something listing features to come and then not deliver on them. How they deliver them is completely up to them, and they may deliver something that is barely functional and consider it "done" just to get them out of any legal bind. However, we won't know until 2020/2021