Player Agency & Wasted time at the Interstellar initiative

[CMDR M. Lehman]

e.g. "I can't gank an entire CG. I'm not getting 'complleing gameplay'"

The entitlement is thick enough to cut with a chainsaw.

I know this is going to come as a shock, but here it is. (and not directed at anyone in particular)

... Other people's time is as valuable as yours is.

If stress testing the BGS at the expense of other players' time is your kink, let your freak flag fly high and proud, I suppose.

But can we please not pretend everyone puts down his/her money for the same thing?

or that this is all somehow doing FDEV a huge favor?

They didn't

and it isn't.

Now burn this post to ashes....!!!

I'm seeing some pretty fundamental differences between you and the OP.

OP was willing to learn about how the BGS works and then invest the time and effort to influence it.

You're happy to do nothing to oppose him and nod your head in approval as all his work gets god-modded away.

Who's entitled?

 

[Ian Skippy]

I think it's pretty clear that you only want like-minded people to be able to influence the game.

When it comes to ED, the more someone wants to enforce his will on others, the less influence I want them to have. The fact that these people don't appear to understand why plays a major role in that.

FWIW: I don't mind at all in a game such as EvE, where all players acknowledge the inherently competitive nature of the game. What we have here is people trying to start a boxing match with a bunch of tennis players. It doesn't matter how cool you think boxing is, this isn't the setting for it. Of course, some people really don't want to play EvE, or another game where everyone is competitive. Some really just want to punch tennis players and mock them for not fighting back. Well, too bad it dont work like that.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

This is almost certainly the way the Zende megaships work. They want to be able to stop any random faction in Zende taking them over and hitching a ride into Synuefe, which I imagine would definitely cause some issues. No reason to create a way for megaships to be tied to factions that hold other assets, when they can just hook it up to the same mechanism as those non-dockables where they fall under the controller's jurisdiction. We'll know for certain come Phase 3, anyway, as the status panel will show what asset of Zende they're defending.

Checking, journal data says the megaships are explicitly owned by Zende Partners. And there would be lots of issues with the station interface if they didn't have an actual controlling faction, as well as things like the markets. Remember that the Sadler's Song ferry currently in Zende is also owned by Zende Partners - who are not the controlling faction in Zende - so it's not the same as the non-dockable "system owner" rule.

Phase 3 won't be enough proof on its own - conflicts are always over the controlling asset of the system (almost certainly the outpost) if possible. You'd need Segnen to win the Phase 3 conflict, then start another one after it's over: if it goes for the undockable installation instead, the ferries can't be captured.

(Frontier do have a way to mark certain assets as uncontestable, in a system which allows normal conflicts, for an influence faction, and have used it a few times before. So they could make the ferries uncapturable but owned by Zende - and probably have, for the reasons you give)

Yes, which is why I'd expect a similar effect in Zende for all other factions. Otherwise, the security reset was entirely (besides ZP) localised on the CG system - the place in danger of Lockdown.

Checking back through the journal entries:
- I don't see any sign of this in Zende
- on the other hand, I don't see any sign that either Zende or Segnen's sliders were outside the None zone before Thursday's server reset in the journal entries either. No Pending Lockdown in the journal there.

Do you happen to have a screenshot from before the server reset? (Unlikely, I know, why would you have taken one before you knew you needed it)

Setting low tiers is a common tactic to ensure that CGs pass, but they appear to have forgotten to account for the fact that this isn't a normal CG, or they've VASTLY overestimated the number of people who would be interested in this. Maybe Tier 1 is low, relative to other trade CGs, but when your main method of gathering cargo is relogging in a SRV...yeah. Last I checked, still on one pixel of progress, and most people seem to be leaving after 20-30 tons.

It seems to have taken off a bit since you last checked - now half way up Tier 1, so probably gets there overnight.

 

[CMDR M. Lehman]

When it comes to ED, the more someone wants to enforce his will on others, the less influence I want them to have.

Are the principles of superior will and self-motivated competition entirely lost on you?

 

[Ian Skippy]

Are the principles of superior will and self-motivated competition entirely lost on you?

I explicitly said otherwise, and I explained I just do not want it in this game while not minding it in others. But you really have to keep twisting words and pretend you didn't read what I wrote just so you can pretend to win an argument about a computer game with a stranger on the internet. Disappointing, but not surprising.

But you know what? It is friday so here ya go: Your will is superior, and you won this self-motivated competition! I'll like your post so you'll even win a whole internet point with it. have a good weekend!

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

When it comes to ED, the more someone wants to enforce his will on others, the less influence I want them to have. The fact that these people don't appear to understand why plays a major role in that.

FWIW: I don't mind at all in a game such as EvE, where all players acknowledge the inherently competitive nature of the game. What we have here is people trying to start a boxing match with a bunch of tennis players. It doesn't matter how cool you think boxing is, this isn't the setting for it. Of course, some people really don't want to play EvE, or another game where everyone is competitive. Some really just want to punch tennis players and mock them for not fighting back. Well, too bad it dont work like that.

What Oubs and company attempted here is hardly EvE. In fact, it's very much in line with previous player efforts in Elite: Dangerous. Remember Socho? How that was handled was pretty great.

But hey, why let cool things happen when boring is so en vogue around here these days.

 

[Rainbro]

Do you happen to have a screenshot from before the server reset? (Unlikely, I know, why would you have taken one before you knew you needed it)

I'd taken screenshots on most days for the purpose of measuring security drops. You didn't see a pending Lockdown as we weren't in the red yet; scheduled to hit it around mid-CG. There was some odd behavior related to this, prior to the shutdown, unsure of it's significance: we entered the yellow for Civil Unrest, the status panel updated to indicate we were indeed in that yellow bit...but no pending Civil Unrest. Wondered if they'd disabled it at the time, but thought it best to give it another tick in case we were just on the cusp and it was a graphical bug. And then this

Most of the screenshots were just the security bar, though, but here:

(First day we had time to do anything significant)

(Bit of a faster drop as more people got involved)
And this is directly prior to the reset:

And this is directly after the server shutdown:

(apologies for the low quality on my screenshots)

It seems to have taken off a bit since you last checked - now half way up Tier 1, so probably gets there overnight.

Jesus, really? Last I checked it was on one pixel and at 19,000 tonnes delivered, most commanders delivering an average of 25 tonnes. That's one hell of an increase.

EDIT: I guess they've fixed the tiers. It was one pixel at 10,000 tonnes, one pixel at 19,000 tonnes, and now it's nearly done at 29,000 tonnes. Tier 1 was definitely higher before the tick, so it looks like Frontier do want this to succeed. I guess all that remains is to see what they do about the war that's on it's way. No avoiding that one without modification.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Definitely a reset of the sliders on Zende Partners there - but I don't see anything on there indicating that Segnen Exchange were ever off the middle of neutral, so it doesn't surprise me that the other factions in Zende system haven't had sliders reset either. Whatever this effect was it seems to just be Zende Partners in both systems.
(And that the economy slider also reset again to me says "bug" rather than "intentional" - Frontier have demonstrated the capability to just move one slider with the starport bomb plot)

Looking at the colour balance on that "just before" shot, you may have been slightly further away from Civil Unrest than you thought, too - there's the weird hatching effect (clearer on Zende Partner's economy slider) that no-one is entirely sure what it means but isn't the same as "pending". Best theory I've seen is it's a buffer zone to stop states close to a line from oscillating with minimal input, and you have to cross that too to actually get the state.

Jesus, really? Last I checked it was on one pixel and at 19,000 tonnes delivered, most commanders delivering an average of 25 tonnes. That's one hell of an increase.

Looking at it more closely, it's now at 813 participants and 28,471 tonnes, so it looks like Frontier may have taken a zero off the targets. That would explain the change.

That, unlike the influence/state weirdness, I think is much more clearly a Frontier dev action. Whether you view it as unjustified interference or just fixing a bug with the targets is a point of view, of course. The CG thread has been full of "why did Frontier set a trade target on a salvage CG" for a while...

 

[Factabulous]

Looking at the colour balance on that "just before" shot, you may have been slightly further away from Civil Unrest than you thought, too - there's the weird hatching effect (clearer on Zende Partner's economy slider) that no-one is entirely sure what it means but isn't the same as "pending". Best theory I've seen is it's a buffer zone to stop states close to a line from oscillating with minimal input, and you have to cross that too to actually get the state.
view, of course. The CG thread has been full of "why did Frontier set a trade target on a salvage CG" for a while...

As Ian says, you need to move the dot past the hatching to get the state change - the hatching just indicates a target, pending comes after you exceed the end point.

See https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/facts-new-theory-of-hatching.477450/ for examples

Looking at it more closely, it's now at 813 participants and 28,471 tonnes, so it looks like Frontier may have taken a zero off the targets. That would explain the change.

That, unlike the influence/state weirdness, I think is much more clearly a Frontier dev action. Whether you view it as unjustified interference or just fixing a bug with the targets is a point of view, of course. The CG thread has been full of "why did Frontier set a trade target on a salvage CG" for a while...

Hello folks,

We've been looking at the numbers and we're going to adjust the targets of each tier so that they are more achievable.

Thank you for all of your feedback and patience on this one.

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

Would be real happy to get some kind of confirmation the slider state shenanigans were a bug.

 

[Commander Biscuit]

OP was willing to learn about how the BGS works and then invest the time and effort to influence it.

But OP wasn't promised anywhere that the BGS would interfere with events like CGs.

 

[Rainbro]

But OP wasn't promised anywhere that the BGS would interfere with events like CGs.

Why shouldn't it? It's normal gameplay mechanics. Besides, here's your promise, I suppose:
"Be aware that faction-state changes and other disruptive events can negatively impact markets and station services, and could prevent the initiative from running smoothly. "

 

[CMDR M. Lehman]

Why shouldn't it? It's normal gameplay mechanics. Besides, here's your promise, I suppose:
"Be aware that faction-state changes and other disruptive events can negatively impact markets and station services, and could prevent the initiative from running smoothly. "

Beat me to it.

 

[Commander Biscuit]

Why shouldn't it? It's normal gameplay mechanics. Besides, here's your promise, I suppose:
"Be aware that faction-state changes and other disruptive events can negatively impact markets and station services, and could prevent the initiative from running smoothly. "

Yeah this event is having enough issues with player participation already. I can't say I blame FD for making full use of the terms "can" and "could".

Anyway, I'm not sure that resetting the system state at the start of an event is worth this amount of pearl clutching. Just think of it as the umpire resetting the score to zero so the game can start.

 

[Maymo]

Sorry, I asked further up but everyone was arguing at the time.

Was OP’s problem (couldn’t create lockdown state) isolated to just the II system, or is it a current galaxy wide issue?

There’s no systems in lockdown anywhere in the galaxy that I can find on EDDB. I found just one station, Wohler Camp/Ither.

When was the last time a player acting alone or in a group was able to create a lockdown anywhere?

I’m just curious and don’t know much about the BGS.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Sorry, I asked further up but everyone was arguing at the time.

Was OP’s problem (couldn’t create lockdown state) isolated to just the II system, or is it a current galaxy wide issue?

There’s no systems in lockdown anywhere in the galaxy that I can find on EDDB. I found just one station, Wohler Camp/Ither.

When was the last time a player acting alone or in a group was able to create a lockdown anywhere?

I’m just curious and don’t know much about the BGS.

Since the multi-state update to the BGS (3.3?) there have been issues. With the march update, FD said this:

Hello Commanders,

[...]

Many of you have commented that the investment and Civil Liberty states are easy to achieve and sustain across the galaxy, and that Lockdown and Famine are very rare.

• We've already made a several changes for how negative actions apply negative economic and security effects, and also how quickly the EP & SP bars drain back towards the centre. We expect to make further tweaks once we've analysed the results of this set of changes.

It is very much possible that the changes have not yet had the result as hoped, and more tweaks are needed.

 

[Maymo]

Since the multi-state update to the BGS (3.3?) there have been issues. With the march update, FD said this:



It is very much possible that the changes have not yet had the result as hoped, and more tweaks are needed.

Thanks Ian...

I’m just wondering if OP’s quest was doomed from the very start. (With or without interference from FD)

 

[LeptonFields]

I am conflicted on this. On one hand undoing the hard work of a single actor with a sweep of the GodModWand is something that should be limited at the least. A more creative approach is perhaps warranted, but being busy preparing for the CG could have led to missing the signs that something damaging to the plot was under way. This case was, I would think, not well advertised by the OP before he set out to undo all FDev's hard work setting up the challenge. Which brings me to ...

On the other hand...

The race was announced along with the start time and location. During the course of the week, as the officials were setting out the course and necessary logistics, a single runner was out trotting along the course's route. On the day of the race, just before the starting gun sounded, the early runner stepped up to the finish line proclaiming a win. Having started before the race actually began is it any wonder the results were disqualified and the race set off as planned for everyone else?

I think Ouberos should be proud of what he single-handedly accomplished. Being able to knock a system from stable high sec down to near lock down in a week is a challenge worthy of note. I would not expect the race officials to let the results stand, however, simply because it would ruin the plan they had and the expectations of the CG participants.

Where the h*ll was FDEV, monitoring the change in security leading up the CG, noting the activity of a few (or many) commanders probably murdering NPCs by the tens to hundreds? Even if they had no plan for this, why did they wait unit the CG started to attempt to adjust the situation.

FDEV, asleep at the switch... again...

 

[Rainbro]

Looks like that's it, folks. Zende Partners just passed Segnen Exchange without triggering a war. This is impossible in that system unless Frontier manually disabled the War state. If they've done that, no doubt Lockdown is also gone.

o7 to everyone who helped with this.

 

[Elfias]

Hmm I see what both sides are saying but wouldnt it be better if they just add some message to Galnet like: Some criminals are trying to undermine Zenda effort to establish ferry to Wherever so they ask all pilots who want to help with this to kill criminals in Wherever system to keep them from putting system into lockdown?

This completly changes what I thought about how it works in Elite. Well what I dreamed about.