Star Citizen Discussion Thread v11

[Navigare Necesse Est]

The Epic excursion reminded me: Didnt they have a roadmap too? With features mlike Steam has to implement? And they just shuffled cards like CIG did. And Anthem.
Seems like a trend to overpromise and when it hits reality it goes poof.

 

[Sanya V. Juutilainen]

The Epic excursion reminded me: Didnt they have a roadmap too? With features mlike Steam has to implement? And they just shuffled cards like CIG did. And Anthem.
Seems like a trend to overpromise and when it hits reality it goes poof.

They still do: https://trello.com/b/GXLc34hk/epic-games-store-roadmap

But what would you know, developing a system for hundreds of millions of people in various languages seems to be kinda tough. Who could've seen that, right.

 

[MTBFritz]

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The Epic excursion reminded me: Didnt they have a roadmap too? With features mlike Steam has to implement? And they just shuffled cards like CIG did. And Anthem.
Seems like a trend to overpromise and when it hits reality it goes poof.

Overpromising hardly is a SC occurence and has been in video games for as long as I can remember. In the past it was kind of rare tho. These days Duke Nukem level overpromising seems to be the norm. SC is special in this regard as it is completely fueled and wasting private peoples money. Also need to differentiate between overpromising and disappointing.

NMS for example overpromised with a lot of things pre-release that never showed up
ED is AFAIC see "just" disappointing to most delivering what it promised and failing to develop to many peoples taste

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I dunno, I prefer the days when there were no "supermarkets" tying strings to devs and imposing brand exclusivity. Gimme the days of the Mom and Pop store where I could walk into any shop and buy any game pls.

indeed... and Valve are the company who really pushed the dropping of being able to go into a bricks and mortar store and just to buy everything from them.

sure they didnt force devs not to release physical formats....... but what they did do was make doing that rather pointless because even if you DID buy the physical product you still had to install the steam bloat anyway and download a bunch of stuff for your game, therefore stripping the main advantage of buying physical releases.

Please dont get me wrong, I dont hold a candle for epic and certainly not Tim Sweeney but they are all much of a muchness........ Valve, Epic Ubisoft....... like others have said, I am not gonna say EA because they are worse, because they actively buy up all the interesting indie devs (no need to buy exclusivity to origin if you just buy the company who makes the games..... but then worse still they fiddle with the great IPs that they purchased and ultimately close the companies they bought down when those IPs do "poorly".

i take that back actually.... GOG, they do electronic store fronts right imo, you buy a game from them you OWN that game, you can download it and burn to a disk and it is your for ever and will work............ but even then, most people still choose to pay, often more, to have a licence to play a game instead of owning their own copy of the game. How can you compete with that? Valve have the mind share and it is only exclusives rightly or wrongly which can even give a chance of breaking that.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

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Overpromising hardly is a SC occurence and has been in video games for as long as I can remember. In the past it was kind of rare tho. These days Duke Nukem level overpromising seems to be the norm. SC is special in this regard as it is completely fueled and wasting private peoples money. Also need to differentiate between overpromising and disappointing.

NMS for example overpromised with a lot of things pre-release that never showed up
ED is AFAIC see "just" disappointing to most delivering what it promised and failing to develop to many peoples taste

Oh yes, I remember the NMS hype. It was the same level of dreamcrafting like with SC in a way. And you got angry comments, too, when mentioning that all the expectations weren't sensible. And that was without upfront pay dollas to believe.

 

[StuartGT]

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/ev7nro Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/ev7nro/my_extremely_bad_experience_with_star_citizen/

 

[StuartGT]

Pay2Win topic is back
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/evkgxp Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/evkgxp/actual_new_player_experience_regarding_p2w_and/

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Pay2Win topic is back
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/evkgxp Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/evkgxp/actual_new_player_experience_regarding_p2w_and/

Do we even need to look to know people are replying explaining how they are wrong and its not pay to win?

 

[StuartGT]

Aye, there are a few crazies in denial in the comments.

There are some that accept that it's Pay2Win and don't mind, which is fair imo.

 

[hairychris]

Do we even need to look to know people are replying explaining how they are wrong and its not pay to win?

If I had spent a few grand on a chariot I'd damn well expect that it was pay-to-win!

 

[MTBFritz]

Dont get me wrong...I like seeing people finally waking up. I just dont follow their surprise or feel for them anymore. The warnings have been pretty clear the last few years. You had people standing up against the hype to call for wariness and pointing out the exact same things these reports now relay as news only to be labled "haters" simply for not falling for the system. One of those guys describes his growing frustration and how he lost confidence eventually culminating in a refund attempt. Thats almost TEXTBOOK journey for the average "hater" yet he seems unable to see he has turned into one himself under his own definition. How is his "report" news or even needed when people have said and warned about this very instance for years? His investment doesnt make him "more right" as we have had a lot of invested people saying the exact thing only to be disregarded as haters.

For guys like him I only have "told you so, now suck it up and lie in the bed you made for yourself".

Seriously....who are these "haters"? What possible motivation do they have to "hate" on an unfinished video game? I get that CIG has a history of misusing established terms to mean something else then it does for the rest of the world. Is there any kind of threat coming from SC to people? Is something going to happen if SC ever releases being a good game? Are people going to die? Are governments going to topple? People who really believe that there is any kind of hate directed against Star Citizen are really too far gone to be taken seriously IMO. I get the use of the word when you are in an argument on a more toxic site but really believing it? wow....

If I had spent a few grand on a chariot I'd damn well expect that it was pay-to-win!

Thats about it, isnt it?

People spend money and they expect something in return. Thats why shouting "its a pledge, I dont want anything for it!!!!" is so delusional.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

There are some that accept that it's Pay2Win and don't mind, which is fair imo.

Me personally am unsure where I stand on it, because I still dont know what the game will be on release - this could be my ignorance but i think it is more conflicing information.

In theory P2W does not concern me much in games where I can play in a controlled environment as long as i can eventually earn all the shinies by in game play.

OTOH if i am going to be forced into the fighting pit and be continually forced up against players who have vastly superior gear purchased with cash and there is no where to avoid them then I am dead against P2W.

So on one hand, given SC are SELLING guides on how to set up private servers and what not (including modding), then that immediately should put my mind at ease .... but then on the other hand the amount of people who tell me this is not the case and that everyone is going to be in the SC equivalent of open and that is that, and with only 100 systems (and dare i say looking like a lot less on current rate of development) which then seems much more like my 2nd possibility and there P2W is a really bad thing.

 

[Sanya V. Juutilainen]

this could be my ignorance but i think it is more conflicing information

That's because CIG promised both things to different groups of pla... buyers. Telling whales that their purchases matter (LTI is important, punches beyond its weight, you will be able to block trade routes in orgs, etc), while assuring the low payers that they will be able to get anything (LTI is not that important, you will be able to get anything, countering every whale promise with some "but", etc).

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

That's because CIG promised both things to different groups of pla... buyers. Telling whales that their purchases matter (LTI is important, punches beyond its weight, you will be able to block trade routes in orgs, etc), while assuring the low payers that they will be able to get anything (LTI is not that important, you will be able to get anything, countering every whale promise with some "but", etc).

indeed... which is why I have no clue whether I will be bothered or not.

either way, my $60 is long long long ago spent, too much for me to get a refund even if i wanted (I looked into it maybe 12 months ago). I am not on the hook for much money so just have to wait and see. Honestly despite the valid concerns, I really like what i have seen, when it is running well and not crashing...... (I am even starting to reconcile the fact i will need to play on a monitor something i said i would never do after playing ED in VR)

I havent played it for over 2 years because i do not want burn out.

 

[Mole HD]

Pay2Win topic is back
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/evkgxp Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/evkgxp/actual_new_player_experience_regarding_p2w_and/

I read the initial topic on the upgrade thing...and sadly found I also figured into the demographic. Not so much suggesting base package backers should upgrade as a rule, but I've often given out upgrade advice in game chat to those who have asked on what ship to upgrade to from their starter Mustang or Aurora.

The ship rentals were a good idea but ended up way too expensive and massively bugged. Buying ships in game has become almost an impossible dream due to the continuing cycle of database wipes despite noises from Ci¬G to the contrary...then we have the zero aUEC starting fund drama and the decision to make rentable ships non upgradeable to add to that, the non upgradeable path makes a rental Prospector a mere one step up from being useless since the addition of new mining heads and the introduction of larger, more difficult to crack rocks. I can see where Ci¬G intended that to go in one sense in encouraging a few players to team up in individual ships to achieve a goal...but like most things, it's half-arsed in it's implementation and approach.

As for the pay to win harping, I can agree with both sides of this pointless argument since it's simply a matter of personal perspective. On the one side, buying in with more $ will give you a perceived step up in earning potential which ever path you decide to go be it mining combat or trade...but only in reality when the PU is finally released as Star Citizen (the game). As is and for the foreseeable future...everyone will be wiped back to their starter packages should that eventuality ever happen in our lifetimes irrelevant of ships bought or credits and entire empires created or earned...that release state is highly doubtful in reality and the wipes will continue unabated.

The earning potential over those with a base package if you buy bespoke mining or cargo ships is there in the current PU of course... but again...due to persistent current and future database wipes it's no real advantage one way or t'other. I lose millions of aUEC every wipe and by all accounts, I'll continue to do so. What advantage over Joe Schmoe in his starter pack Mustang did I gain except for spending more real cash to fly ships I particularly like or see a potential in-game use for?

....Not a lot in reality...but I'm sure the argument will continue none the less, it's fashionable if nothing else

 

[Skizomeuh]

You can have access to the vip tables or just only allowed to use the slot machines, there is only one winner: the house.

 

[MTBFritz]

In theory P2W does not concern me much in games where I can play in a controlled environment as long as i can eventually earn all the shinies by in game play.

I used to think the same. I dont have kids and end up with enough free time on my hands so "time or money" scenarios are not really a hard decision. But I ve been thinking about and going through this for years by now and this scenario is always only the first step on a deteriorating path. You start out with an environment where you replace grind with money which is okay in my book. And soon after that, when the community has settled and got used to the recipee changes are introduced slightly shifting the formula. It can be all kinds of things. New achievements for clothes or mounts introduced, not necessary but impossible to achieve without ingame store purchases. Ingame transactions starting to affect gameplay rather then being vanity items only. Curtains up for the XP booster potion or some other stat altering thing. At the same time resource gain through playing is slightly tweaked to extend the grind bit by bit requiring more and more of your time to achieve the same result. The community which accepts this only becomes another pressure point servicing the company.

Picture a MMO that allows you to raid even as a F2P player but the guild requirements are so ridiculous that you are forced to spend real money in order to keep up. You dont have to of course but if you dont you wont raid...its that simple. We are not talking about any kind of high-end or elite guild either. Average requirements usually shift to the extreme preventing new or undergeared players (the ones who HAVE to raid to get better stuff....) from participating in raids.

Many games have become true cess pools of P2W even tho they started out as "it wont be a problem guys".

I am not as relaxed or accepting to P2W as you are. Because at its core I am being punished for not spending real life money, its not a choice I have. I dont have the same options or paths open if I simply play for free. Playing for free also means playing at a disadvantage, this isnt even arguable. People who are willing to pay more money also provide the same time you do....its not a counter. They simply get more in an environment where you and they are directly pitted against each other in a competing manner. Chris Roberts theorizing of "whats winning anyway?" is laughable and might work on the naive and inexperienced and I was one of those. Have seen enough tho.

Star Citizen doesnt even start out on equal footing. Without a PvP switch you ll start out on day 1 same as everybody else only that you are flying a starter ship while you look down the guns of an Idriss frigate 5 minutes after the servers go up. Trying to mine? Too bad that you only have a slow potato and all the good spots are already taken and defended by multicrew ships. In Star Citizen you are left to pick up the scraps when you are a "normal" guy while the people who upped up the additional mosh are going to use YOU as "gameplay assets". Yeah, I would mind very much....

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I read the initial topic on the upgrade thing...and sadly found I also figured into the demographic. Not so much suggesting base package backers should upgrade as a rule, but I've often given out upgrade advice in game chat to those who have asked on what ship to upgrade to from their starter Mustang or Aurora.

The ship rentals were a good idea but ended up way too expensive and massively bugged. Buying ships in game has become almost an impossible dream due to the continuing cycle of database wipes despite noises from Ci¬G to the contrary...then we have the zero aUEC starting fund drama and the decision to make rentable ships non upgradeable to add to that, the non upgradeable path makes a rental Prospector a mere one step up from being useless.

As for the pay to win harping, I can agree with both sides of this pointless argument since it's simply a matter of personal perspective. On the one side, buying in with more $ will give you a perceived step up...but only in reality when the PU is finally released as Star Citizen (the game), as is...everyone will be wiped back to the stone age should that eventuality ever happen in our lifetimes irrelevant of ships bought or credits and entire empires created or earned...that release state is highly doubtful in reality and the wipes will continue unabated.

The earning potential over those with a base package if you buy bespoke mining or cargo ships is there in the current PU of course... but again...due to persistent current and future database wipes it's no real advantage one way or t'other. I lose millions of aUEC every wipe and by all accounts, I'll continue to do so. What advantage over Joe Schmoe in his starter pack Mustang did I gain except for spending more real cash to fly ships I particularly like or see a in game use for?

....Not a lot in reality...but I'm sure the argument will continue non the less, it's fashionable if nothing else

I hope you are only talking about wipes pre release?
They are to be expected imo, and happened with Elite quite a lot....(tho made worse in SC due to the money problem i agree).... but after launch it is vital that players do not get forced wipes imo, and this is even more true in the case of some players starting with nothing and others starting with millions..... IF CIG did that, taking away a player who had earned a bunch of ships through in game play, then after a wipe kicking them back to the gutter whilst johnny big balls got to keep all his stuff, that would be utterly outrageous.

imo it is a mistake to look at betas and even earlier builds as a game, and certainly you should not get attached to your gear.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I used to think the same. I dont have kids and end up with enough free time on my hands so "time or money" scenarios are not really a hard decision. But I ve been thinking about and going through this for years by now and this scenario is always only the first step on a deteriorating path. You start out with an environment where you replace grind with money which is okay in my book. And soon after that, when the community has settled and got used to the recipee changes are introduced slightly shifting the formula. It can be all kinds of things. New achievements for clothes or mounts introduced, not necessary but impossible to achieve without ingame store purchases. Ingame transactions starting to affect gameplay rather then being vanity items only. Curtains up for the XP booster potion or some other stat altering thing. At the same time resource gain through playing is slightly tweaked to extend the grind bit by bit requiring more and more of your time to achieve the same result. The community which accepts this only becomes another pressure point servicing the company.

Picture a MMO that allows you to raid even as a F2P player but the guild requirements are so ridiculous that you are forced to spend real money in order to keep up. You dont have to of course but if you dont you wont raid...its that simple. We are not talking about any kind of high-end or elite guild either. Average requirements usually shift to the extreme preventing new or undergeared players (the ones who HAVE to raid to get better stuff....) from participating in raids.

Many games have become true cess pools of P2W even tho they started out as "it wont be a problem guys".

I am not as relaxed or accepting to P2W as you are. Because at its core I am being punished for not spending real life money, its not a choice I have. I dont have the same options or paths open if I simply play for free. Playing for free also means playing at a disadvantage, this isnt even arguable. People who are willing to pay more money also provide the same time you do....its not a counter. They simply get more in an environment where you and they are directly pitted against each other in a competing manner. Chris Roberts theorizing of "whats winning anyway?" is laughable and might work on the naive and inexperienced and I was one of those. Have seen enough tho.

Star Citizen doesnt even start out on equal footing. Without a PvP switch you ll start out on day 1 same as everybody else only that you are flying a starter ship while you look down the guns of an Idriss frigate 5 minutes after the servers go up. Trying to mine? Too bad that you only have a slow potato and all the good spots are already taken and defended by multicrew ships. In Star Citizen you are left to pick up the scraps when you are a "normal" guy while the people who upped up the additional mosh are going to use YOU as "gameplay assets". Yeah, I would mind very much....

I agree with almost all of that.......... which is why the controlled environment is important and it remains to be seen what happens there.

paying cash for XP boosts or increased money earnings in game whilst you play, ...... none of that ever has any place in a pay to play game imo, and that is what SC is, regardless of if you paid $40 or $40,000....
cosmetics that offer nothing other than eye candy like ED i can live with............................ but one of the things i liked about star citizen was right at the start CR said there would be nothing like that in SC... sure you may be able to purchase credits for cash if you wanted, but every thing in the game was promised to be gettable by just playing the game.

as such i will be less tolerant of a cash for unique costmetics in SC than i was ein ED. (even in ED i dont really like it, personally i preferred the original Kick Starter way FD were gonna sell stuff in store, but i fully accept i am a minority here so you do not have to argue your case

Dirt 2 way back in the day allowed you to buy all the cars in the game with cash via a series of car packs, a lot of people hated it, however I earned every single car in the game just by playing the game naturally, i neve rfelt any grind at all....
OTOH forza 5 (maybe others since) sold cars for real money and on top of that made the grind to earn them ingame utterly insane, such that no one could feasibly ever buy every car in the game via gameplay......... and that is why the small print is important.... We wont know how bad any "grind" is until the game launches.

Most here are assuming it will be terrible, and it maybe...... but maybe it wont be so bad and it will be the whales who are raging about "I bought an idris and all these scrubs have got one within a week of the game launching".

 

[VR Golgot]

I read the initial topic on the upgrade thing...and sadly found I also figured into the demographic. Not so much suggesting base package backers should upgrade as a rule, but I've often given out upgrade advice in game chat to those who have asked on what ship to upgrade to from their starter Mustang or Aurora.

Ach, that’s a bit different if they’d already decided to buy more.

The ship rentals were a good idea but ended up way too expensive and massively bugged....

Yeah it’s interesting seeing guys saying they haven’t seen their earnings go up much post-rental, purely due to the cost. So they don’t seem to be acting as stepping stones. (And the firewalling off of upgraded kit, like the mining heads etc, only seems to underline that)

...but only in reality when the PU is finally released as Star Citizen (the game), as is...everyone will be wiped back to the stone age should that eventuality ever happen in our lifetimes irrelevant of ships bought or credits and entire empires created or earned...that release state is highly doubtful in reality and the wipes will continue unabated.

The earning potential over those with a base package if you buy bespoke mining or cargo ships is there in the current PU of course... but again...due to persistent current and future database wipes it's no real advantage one way or t'other. I lose millions of aUEC every wipe and by all accounts, I'll continue to do so. What advantage over Joe Schmoe in his starter pack Mustang did I gain except for spending more real cash to fly ships I particularly like or see a potential in-game use for?

....Not a lot in reality...but I'm sure the argument will continue non the less, it's fashionable if nothing else

But even if a ‘final launch wipe’ arrives, people won’t be ‘wiped back to the stone age’ equally. Those with bought ships & creds will start with those, and their increased earning / mission completion potential. And those crazies who’ve been stockpiling creds, especially now there’s no upper cap, will be uncatchable by any crazies that follow in those footsteps. (Let alone those guys who grind instead of buy creds...)

Kingdoms have definitely been built in advance of launch, significant advantages bought.