Star Citizen Discussion Thread v11

[Asp Explorer]

I remember an interview with Brabam in 2008 where Elite 4 was supposed to be almost ready, but there were a lot of problems with the networking.

Networking has come on near-unimaginable leaps and bounds since 2008. You can now push 100 gigabit with just a little expenditure and very little effort.

However, the world's infrastructure has changed very little, and the most important factor - the speed of light - isn't going to change any time soon. You can have all the bandwidth you can possibly imagine, it's going to do sweet free artichokes when it comes to latency for players in physically and infrastucturally disperse locations.

And with CI-G's networking implementation - which wobbles at the knees as soon as you even look at it - nothing is going to improve upon it other than a complete architectural rewrite.

 

[Tippis]

As Tippis says, citation needed. The Outsider was aiming to launch in 2008, and then stumbled on further towards a 2011 launch. 'Elite 4' was supposed to follow on after, but was still at the planning stage. The odds of them aiming to launch two flagship games simultaneously in 2008 seems pretty unlikely.

To wit, according to the man himself in the Kickstarter “we have had a couple of false starts on this over the years, where progress wasn’t as good as I wanted.” So whatever status reports might have happened before that, chances are that they didn't actually relate all that much to the final project.

In addition, “other projects have been prioritised – projects with announced dates or other commitments. Up to now “Elite” has been worked upon by a small team as a ‘skunk-works’ activity in the background as availability permits.” That's a characterisation that doesn't leave much room for any work being done in a period where they had just finished off Thrillville; where they were working on LostWinds and Kinectimals; and where they were trying to keep development of The Outsider going. If there ever was an “Elite 4”, it would have been something they started doing after The Outsider¹, which means it definitely wasn't going on while all those other games were taking up their time. Codemasters pulled out in 2011, removing that last commitment, but let's charitably assume that the project was floundering before that — maybe even as early as 2009 or so — giving them some time to fiddle with (because that's all “skunk-works activity” is) some odd bits and ends.

That would leave a 3-year gap between that early start and the final project, during which they might have been able to eke out a few moments of not-actual-development here and there. What was the result of that? Again, per the man himself, it amounted to “preparing; laying the technology and design foundations for when the time is right” — i.e. engine tinkering that they were doing anyway; preparing, not developing; and waiting…

…a description that would just as well fit what CRobber did starting 1996, once WC4 wrapped up, when he was “essentially […] wanting to do Privateer right”² (which is mind-bogglingly insulting to the actual game developers who made that game), but which he never ended up making and then, 16 years later, tried to do a second time³ using a technology and design foundation that had been layered on since some time before 1999.⁴

So if anyone wants to follow the tenuous route that some undefined “Elite 4” (supposedly soon to be released after 2008) is the exact same thing as ED, and that this means ED has been in development since, oh, the mid-aughts or so, then they must by necessity also accept that SC has been in development since 1996 at the very least, and possibly earlier still since Chris wasn't nearly as involved in, or occupied by, WC4 as one is often led to believe.⁵

 

[Agony_Aunt]

But CI-G have promised (and sold) us Exploration, Org's, Base Building and Sandwurmies.

Is that silly?

How many missiles should the sandworm have?

But seriously, exploration and org mechanics are rather big missing features considering those are two major pillars of the game that was sold.

As for sandworms, i'm curious whether CIG can ever actually release them without some sort of change. I'm no expert on law, but a giant worm that lives on a planet of sand seems to skim too close to Frank Herbert's IP for lawyers to be comfortable with. I mean, why did they have to make it so much like the worms in Dune? A bit of change to the model, call it something else than a worm, and you are far enough from the IP not to worry about potential lawsuits.

My guess CR is his usual style went "I want something like the sandworms in Dune" and the devs having no clearer guidance (except to be told THE WORM WAS NOT A JOKE) went and did exactly what they had been told. CR then, remember seeing Dune in the cinemas as a wide eyed boy, who dreamed of being the Kwizatz Haderach, approved the worm as a masterstroke of his creative genius, as a sandworm in a computer game has never been done before!

 

[Agony_Aunt]

To wit, according to the man himself in the Kickstarter “we have had a couple of false starts on this over the years, where progress wasn’t as good as I wanted.” So whatever status reports might have happened before that, chances are that they didn't actually relate all that much to the final project.

In addition, “other projects have been prioritised – projects with announced dates or other commitments. Up to now “Elite” has been worked upon by a small team as a ‘skunk-works’ activity in the background as availability permits.” That's a characterisation that doesn't leave much room for any work being done in a period where they had just finished off Thrillville; where they were working on LostWinds and Kinectimals; and where they were trying to keep development of The Outsider going. If there ever was an “Elite 4”, it would have been something they started doing after The Outsider¹, which means it definitely wasn't going on while all those other games were taking up their time. Codemasters pulled out in 2011, removing that last commitment, but let's charitably assume that the project was floundering before that — maybe even as early as 2009 or so — giving them some time to fiddle with (because that's all “skunk-works activity” is) some odd bits and ends.

That would leave a 3-year gap between that early start and the final project, during which they might have been able to eke out a few moments of not-actual-development here and there. What was the result of that? Again, per the man himself, it amounted to “preparing; laying the technology and design foundations for when the time is right” — i.e. engine tinkering that they were doing anyway; preparing, not developing; and waiting…

…a description that would just as well fit what CRobber did starting 1996, once WC4 wrapped up, when he was “essentially […] wanting to do Privateer right”² (which is mind-bogglingly insulting to the actual game developers who made that game), but which he never ended up making and then, 16 years later, tried to do a second time³ using a technology and design foundation that had been layered on since some time before 1999.⁴

So if anyone wants to follow the tenuous route that some undefined “Elite 4” (supposedly soon to be released after 2008) is the exact same thing as ED, and that this means ED has been in development since, oh, the mid-aughts or so, then they must by necessity also accept that SC has been in development since 1996 at the very least, and possibly earlier still since Chris wasn't nearly as involved in, or occupied by, WC4 as one is often led to believe.⁵

SC apologists: ED was in development since 1990!

Also SC apologists: The first few years of SC's development don't count because they were still building the team and didn't have many people and it was all just building the tools to build the game.

 

[ArAsH]

Yeah see, if it's factual, and fair, it's not called whining. It's called criticism.

Dude, 11 threads of the same thing is called whining.

 

[ArAsH]

SC apologists: ED was in development since 1990!

Also SC apologists: The first few years of SC's development don't count because they were still building the team and didn't have many people and it was all just building the tools to build the game.

Are you calling me a SC apologist?

 

[LanceLord]

Don't forget the $4M stretch goal, "Professional mod tools will be provided free to all players", so as soon as that's delivered (two weeks) there'll be plenty of nude patches, bunny man mods and horse armour to go around.

If Roberts hadn't been out of the gaming loop for 20 years it might have occurred to him that mod tools could be used to "allow" the community to develop content for him for free (eg Media Molecule's "Dreams"). Or, better yet, he could monetize it on their behalf the way Bethesda tried to with Skyrim mods.

The ARE now monetizing formerly free PC modding community mods to date. By decisively splitting the modding community. Through bribery inviting/paying the best PC modders in the community a slave labor one time fee to mod for them. Using NDAs to prohibit mod authors from uploading their creations anywhere else but on Bethesda.net site. Once the mod author's work is uploaded and received by Bethesda's servers, it automatically becomes the legal property of Bethesda. So all they need do is sell the mod author's work to the vast millions of console community gamers. For ridiculously $$$$ overpriced money in Creation Club store. The potential monetization model was always there. It just took them a while to figure out how to efficiently exploit it for profit, by performing that bit of bum nuggetry with Fallout and Skyrim.

That being said, CRobbers definitely missed the boat on that one. Or rather, his ship remains on a deep sea odyssey and has yet to come into port.

Because even little AA White Horse Studios which made KCD (on a tight $30M budget AND released the game on time). Daniel Vavra the WHS CEO and project mgr/lead dev beat him to the punch on releasing an official mod tool. Which he did ON TIME based on the KCD roadmap WHS released to the fan base. Vavra even went the extra mile to collaborate with Nexusmods, the biggest PC modding community on the web when they designed it. And thanks to the vision of WHS, the fan base has been helping WHS make mods ranging from bug fixes all the way to global features like textures, lighting and environmental upgrades. Vavra has been able to sit back and let his title benefit from the talent of a dedicated modding community.

If CR had an iota of the sense and foresight God gave sheep, he would have understood this and empowered the SC fan base early. Who would've happily helped him both troubleshoot and finish the damned game....

 

[PiLhEaD]

Dude, 11 threads....

....and still no release, and absolutely no trace of SQ42.

Great.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Are you calling me a SC apologist?

No, i said that's what SC apologists say. Do you say those things?

 

[McGlashan]

Through bribery inviting/paying the best PC modders in the community a slave labor one time fee to mod for them. Using NDAs to prohibit mod authors from uploading their creations anywhere else but on [the company's] site. Once the mod author's work is uploaded and received by [the company's] servers, it automatically becomes the legal property of [the company]. So all they need do is sell the mod author's work to the vast millions of [PC and] console community gamers. For ridiculously $$$$ overpriced money in [the company's] store.

Sounds like that would fit CIG's business model perfectly.

Edit: except for the "vast millions of gamers" part. Couple of thousand, maybe.

 

[ArAsH]

No, i said that's what SC apologists say. Do you say those things?

Your timing was quite odd then

 

[ArAsH]

....and still no release, and absolutely no trace of SQ42.

Great.

Play something else in the meanwhile, or do something productive in life, what can I say?

 

[dayrth]

....what can I say?

You could explain why you post on a forum telling people who post on that forum that they are wasting their time by posting on the forum.

 

[ArAsH]

You could explain why you post on a forum telling people who post on that forum that they are wasting their time by posting on the forum.

That’s not what I’m saying.

 

[Viajero]

Hey man, I love Elite as much as most here, played my first version on my Amiga 500. Elite 2 blew my mind a few years later. But I have been following the production of Elite IV for a long time. Vendetta Online was my go to space 'sim' waiting for a new Elite, and I started playing that in 2002. I remember an interview with Brabam in 2008 where Elite 4 was supposed to be almost ready, but there were a lot of problems with the networking. Anyway, it was a long wait for Elite 4 (Elite Dangerous now) but a lot less complaining than now with star citizen. Must be the times I guess, anyway, to each his own, I guess my point is you guys whine too much. Enjoy what is out there and wait and see to what comes.

Yeah, if we go by that logic Star Citizen development would have started in the year 2000, when Chris Roberts is already on record about his intentions for a sequel to Freelancer (Star Citizen now).

 

[WhiteHaulerMan]

I'll tell you a truth...I've listened to and given worse briefings during my time

It was a blast from the past for me...nice hearing real life squaddie speak as a normal way of talking again. In ARMA, it always confused the hell out of me when we ended up having civvies mixed in with our group of veterans...it made the constant explanations of what we were talking about severely taxing and time consuming

We've all given worse briefings.. however I suspect you or I wouldn't be making group members do kit musters, or resit 'a weapon qualification course' because they ND'd because the safety catch functionality wasn't working properly.

Or my preferred favourite... minor disciplinary e-fitness punishment (making someone do virtual pushups by going prone/standing up).

Yeah, if we go by that logic Star Citizen development would have started in the year 2000, when Chris Roberts is already on record about his intentions for a sequel to Freelancer (Star Citizen now).

Which is about the time I remember Frontier's old website was starting to drop hints (such as concept art) of what was coming in Elite 4, citing all the tech The Outsider was going to bring that would allow them to do walking/fps perspective on space stations/planets.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Your timing was quite odd then

Not really, since i was replying to Tipps who brought up the topic of how backers like to claim ED was in development much longer than it was, which as i understand was a development of your discussion with him.

 

[Viajero]

We've all given worse briefings.. however I suspect you or I wouldn't be making group members do kit musters, or resit 'a weapon qualification course' because they ND'd because the safety catch functionality wasn't working properly.

Or my preferred favourite... minor disciplinary e-fitness punishment (making someone do virtual pushups by going prone/standing up).



Which is about the time I remember Frontier's old website was starting to drop hints (such as concept art) of what was coming in Elite 4, citing all the tech The Outsider was going to bring that would allow them to do walking/fps perspective on space stations/planets.

Hope you then agree about the silliness of that line of logic. Otherwise we would then also probably need to ammend most multiple sequel franchise games (and probably many one offs too) development times by even decades in some cases, which is a bit nonsensical.

A more reasonable way to ascertain the start of a development is the moment when you have a sanctioned budget assigned to a related and specific work plan and you start employing those resources. I think we can also probably agree that moment happened around the 2011-2012 timeframe for both SC and ED, give or take a few months.

 

[Surefoot]

A more reasonable way to ascertain the start of a development is the moment when you have a sanctioned budget assigned to a related and specific work plan and you start employing those resources. I think we can also probably agree that moment happened around the 2011-2012 timeframe for both SC and ED, give or take a few months.

More reasonably even, if we look at Sunk Cost Galaxy and other insider info, SC dev in 2012 was only a kind of proof of concept made by Crytek with no actual gameplay (more like a machinima actually). Actual dev started around the end of that year IIRC when the CiG / RSI structure was set up, with the transfer of that code base and later on employees. Which is the reason of that game engine choice (which was not a choice, then) and the very much "FPS oriented" kind of movement / gameplay.
As for ED, the "Elite IV" project was a thing in the back of Braben's mind probably since the completion and release of the third game, it's not a big leap of faith to believe that given the huge popularity and impact of these games, and he very probably doodled a few things related to it in his spare time, still that doesnt make it a full dev project, which only started around 2012 too.

 

[Cotic]

Hey man, I love Elite as much as most here, played my first version on my Amiga 500. Elite 2 blew my mind a few years later. But I have been following the production of Elite IV for a long time. Vendetta Online was my go to space 'sim' waiting for a new Elite, and I started playing that in 2002. I remember an interview with Brabam in 2008 where Elite 4 was supposed to be almost ready, but there were a lot of problems with the networking. Anyway, it was a long wait for Elite 4 (Elite Dangerous now) but a lot less complaining than now with star citizen. Must be the times I guess, anyway, to each his own, I guess my point is you guys whine too much. Enjoy what is out there and wait and see to what comes.

Every couple of months you come back with the same old twaddle.

Every time you do this you get corrected, quotes from Braben are presented to you and you slink away. And then 2 or 3 months later you show up again for the same old dance, why is that?

You moan about people posting the same stuff over and over while doing precisely that yourself....