General / Off-Topic The safest place

[Leper Messiah]

Shall we talk of the cover up of the sexually abused girls in the UK, police/authorities complicit in that.Along with an Asian MP saying that white girls should "shut up" in the interests of racial harmony?

How about Kriss Donald, I'm pretty certain many people won't have clue who he is or how the poor lad suffered a horrific death.....did white UK people riot? Or how about Charlene Downes? Racism is a clear problem.....but it's not one way.

Ignorance IS a very bad thing, many are ignorant of when whites suffer. Because it get's no where near the MSM coverage. I'm certain Lee Rigby's attack would be largly unknown if it wasn't so public.

 

[Morbad]

What I think, based on that, that in the US the perceived view of Afro Americans came a long way in the past 30 years, especially considering that Obama was elected president.

Maybe in a superficial sense. Below that veneer I don't think much has changed.

Now, I guess I will cross the line now, but if we say as a result Afro Americans share in this demographics is still proportionally high, then I can see why many at the police have biased views that lead to the problem.

If you're talking about the more disruptive elements (looting, vandalism, unprovoked attacks on others) of ongoing events, then the African American demographic doesn't seem to be disproportionately high. If anything it's the opposite, probably because minorities expect to be blamed for everything, while more privileged classes know someone else is likely to be blamed for what they do.

So perhaps the problem is not inherent racism, but other structural issues (Education, equal opportunities, etc.) in the society.

These structural issues are part and parcel of systemic racism that has been endemic to American culture since at least the Reconstruction. Some people like to pretend it disappeared with the Civil Rights movement, when the de jure status was largely equalized, but that's a farce. Even adjusted for other factors, there is still a significant negative bias against black Americans and 'white privilege' is very real here.

As about police - there are issues with them where I live as well, in fact severe issues with the the whole system including prosecution and judges, so I can absolutely relate to that.
However, between 2010 and 2014, the situation in SFO tanked and to be honest the scenes to us were completely shocking. Masses of homeless high on crack or whatever lying cross the sidewalk so we had to walk on the road (in return got honked off by motorists), penetrating smell of urine, upon exiting a restaurant a man lying on the ground, with an arm in odd angle, yelling, the gunshots (never ever heard it in a city, with the possible exception of Central America). Perhaps that is normal in the US, but elsewhere it is not - and to be honest, considering the highest homicide rate anywhere in the world by far, it is objectively not normal.
At the end, I can understand why the police have become tough/brutal, and perhaps they are the problem, but not the main problem. Go nerf your police, eventually you may get war zones like in Brazil's favelas...

These scenes should be shocking, and many areas in the US have major drug problems. They are indicative of many issues (poverty being at the top of that list), few of which will be solved by harsher law enforcement crackdowns.

In the current situation, I think police absolutely are the core of the problem. Police have killed nearly eight-thousand people in the US in the last seven years and brutalized countless more. George Floyd's murder just happened to be an unusually blatant, well-documented, and in-your-face example, the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. If police were held to a higher standard, something more reflective of the power they wield over the of the lives of others, these protests would never have been sparked and there wouldn't have been any opportunity for a small minority of criminals to exacerbate an already chaotic situation. If the Minneapolis PD had responded to the available evidence and immediately arrested the officers involved, thereby setting a better example, a great deal of well justified outrage could have been avoided. If other law enforcement agencies around the nation had been more careful to distinguish looters and vandals from actual protesters, or just bystanders, then much escalation could have been avoided.

Some people will accuse me of holding a double standard, saying that it's only a small minority of police that are the problem, yet I'm blaming police as a whole. This is true...I am holding police to a higher standard, because they took an oath, and putting on that badge was their choice. They can't be excused if they stand by and ignore, or shield, fellow officers that are abusing the authority they have been given. Pointing out other issues, which are equally real, also does not detract from this one.

Shall we talk of the cover up of the sexually abused girls in the UK, police/authorities complicit in that.Along with an Asian MP saying that white girls should "shut up" in the interests of racial harmony?

How about Kriss Donald, I'm pretty certain many people won't have clue who he is or how the poor lad suffered a horrific death.....did white UK people riot? Or how about Charlene Downes? Racism is a clear problem.....but it's not one way.

Ignorance IS a very bad thing, many are ignorant of when whites suffer. Because it get's no where near the MSM coverage. I'm certain Lee Rigby's attack would be largly unknown if it wasn't so public.

Your analogies are silly. Whites aren't suffering for being white, not in the US (unless you want to be taken seriously in hip-hop), and probably not in the UK.

 

[Leper Messiah]

Your analogies are silly. Whites aren't suffering for being white, not in the US (unless you want to be taken seriously in hip-hop), and probably not in the UK.

OMG are you for real? Ignorance is such a bad thing. Then again it proves my point.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Shall we talk of the cover up of the sexually abused girls in the UK, police/authorities complicit in that.Along with an Asian MP saying that white girls should "shut up" in the interests of racial harmony?

No, we shall talk about COVID19. Given we had about three very clear warnings from the mods the past 24h to drop this race debate I would like all the above people to stop this before the BanHammer appears. :/

 

[Leper Messiah]

Police have killed nearly eight-thousand people in the US in the last seven years and brutalized countless more.

I expect you wouln't give a toss how many of them were white? Or how many were criminals and others lives were saved when police stepped in, damn lies and statistics.

 

[Morbad]

OMG are you for real? Ignorance is such a bad thing.

If you are unable to distinguish between pervasive, systemic, racism and one-off examples--or acknowledge that in most of the western world, being of predominantly European ancestry is generally a major advantage over being, say African or Middle-Eastern--then you must be referring to yourself.

I expect you wouln't give a toss how many of them were white? Or how many were criminals and others lives were saved when police stepped in, damn lies and statistics.

Why would expect either of these things? They are entirely unfounded presumptions, and also entirely false, in this case.

 

[Leper Messiah]

If you are unable to distinguish between pervasive, systemic, racism and one-off examples--or acknowledge that in most of the western world, being of predominantly European ancestry is generally a major advantage over being, say African or Middle-Eastern--then you must be referring to yourself.



Why would expect either of these things? They are entirely unfounded presumptions, and also entirely false, in this case.

One off? THOUSANDS of girls in the UK have been victims T H O U S A N D S....because of a cover up and a hush up by UK police/politicians it wasn't stopped. A whistle blower was sacked and hounded out. But fine if you think every white person is born with a silver spoon and "priviledge" then it just proves who can be included in the lists of racists.

You talk to me about "presumptions"....you spouted that stat to prove your point of systemic racism/white supremacy etc yet you have no idea how that number is broken down? If you don't know then that stat is meaningless and just adding flames to the fire.

 

[Leper Messiah]

Here's a hard concept for some people:

ALL races can be racist
ALL races can be VICTIMS of racism

to deny those is to be a racist yourself.

 

[Ian Skippy]

 

[Morbad]

One off? THOUSANDS of girls in the UK have been victims T H O U S A N D S....because of a cover up and a hush up by UK police/politicians it wasn't stopped. A whistle blower was sacked and hounded out.

Ok.

But fine if you think every white person is born with a silver spoon and "priviledge" then it just proves who can be included in the lists of racists.

That's not even remotely something I implied.

I'm well aware there are poor whites, and whites that suffer all kinds of injustices. My point still stands, these people, in the western world, rarely suffer because of their skin color. This is absolutely not the case for brown people.

You talk to me about "presumptions"....you spouted that stat to prove your point of systemic racism/white supremacy etc yet you have no idea how that number is broken down? If you don't know then that stat is meaningless and just adding flames to the fire.

This is another pair of false presumptions on your part.

Firstly, I do know how the number is broken down, and I am well aware that 2/3rds of the figure are white. Blacks are still ~2.5 times as likely, per capita, to be killed by police.

Secondly, it wasn't in the section of my post about 'racism/white supremacy'. It was a reference to police brutality in general, but the statistics do support a racial bias angle as well.

to deny those is to be a racist yourself.

I guess it's a good thing no one here is denying that.

Systemic biases are still a thing, and in societies controlled by Caucasians, whites have the bulk of the advantages.

 

[askavir]

People largely stick to the rules, with the expected minority of people who just dont care.

Same down here in Portugal. Most people are taking the necessary precautions even though we sometimes tend to focus just on the bad examples (that's why social networks give us a very biased view of the world). I believe the secret to Portugal's relative success in dealing with all this is due to most people actually followed the safety recommendations.

Let's see what happens now, the de-isolation (not sure if this is an english word) process will be a critical, let's hope we don't ruin everything that went well so far.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Let's see what happens now, the de-isolation (not sure if this is an english word) process will be a critical, let's hope we don't ruin everything that went well so far.

One of the big positive developments over here is that we are now actually able to test people who think they might have it. Contact tracing is far easier to do now, and should help in slowing a second wave initially to the point we can take proper action sooner. Hopefully that would mean these 'waves' would be relatively brief, with increasingly longer periods of increasingly less restrictions. Starting next week with pubs with limited capacity in Belgium, which already started in the Netherlands this week.

We'll know in two weeks.

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

Maybe in a superficial sense. Below that veneer I don't think much has changed.



If you're talking about the more disruptive elements (looting, vandalism, unprovoked attacks on others) of ongoing events, then the African American demographic doesn't seem to be disproportionately high. If anything it's the opposite, probably because minorities expect to be blamed for everything, while more privileged classes know someone else is likely to be blamed for what they do.



These structural issues are part and parcel of systemic racism that has been endemic to American culture since at least the Reconstruction. Some people like to pretend it disappeared with the Civil Rights movement, when the de jure status was largely equalized, but that's a farce. Even adjusted for other factors, there is still a significant negative bias against black Americans and 'white privilege' is very real here.



These scenes should be shocking, and many areas in the US have major drug problems. They are indicative of many issues (poverty being at the top of that list), few of which will be solved by harsher law enforcement crackdowns.

In the current situation, I think police absolutely are the core of the problem. Police have killed nearly eight-thousand people in the US in the last seven years and brutalized countless more. George Floyd's murder just happened to be an unusually blatant, well-documented, and in-your-face example, the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. If police were held to a higher standard, something more reflective of the power they wield over the of the lives of others, these protests would never have been sparked and there wouldn't have been any opportunity for a small minority of criminals to exacerbate an already chaotic situation. If the Minneapolis PD had responded to the available evidence and immediately arrested the officers involved, thereby setting a better example, a great deal of well justified outrage could have been avoided. If other law enforcement agencies around the nation had been more careful to distinguish looters and vandals from actual protesters, or just bystanders, then much escalation could have been avoided.

Some people will accuse me of holding a double standard, saying that it's only a small minority of police that are the problem, yet I'm blaming police as a whole. This is true...I am holding police to a higher standard, because they took an oath, and putting on that badge was their choice. They can't be excused if they stand by and ignore, or shield, fellow officers that are abusing the authority they have been given. Pointing out other issues, which are equally real, also does not detract from this one.



Your analogies are silly. Whites aren't suffering for being white, not in the US (unless you want to be taken seriously in hip-hop), and probably not in the UK.

Thanks for the insight. Now that we talk about it, the last time I was in US was Chicago-Detroit, and the segregation was surprisingly high. Shopping mall where I was alone as white, a more posh grocery store just a few miles away, even the cashier was white.

So there's that, in the meantime a major bank said they won't support IPOs of companies with all straight white male board (the very idea is ). Society of hypocrisy.

 

[Leper Messiah]

Ok.

That's not even remotely something I implied.

I'm well aware there are poor whites, and whites that suffer all kinds of injustices. My point still stands, these people, in the western world, rarely suffer because of their skin color. This is absolutely not the case for brown people.

Many people think that though....I've lost count of how many times I've read the phrase "white privilege" in comment sections on this subject.

You say "ok" above, but clearly it's sarcastic or you just don't get it when you repeat "these people, in the western world, rarely suffer because of their skin color". The girls were ALL white and were groomed by gangs of non whites for DECADES. It was all covered up and hushed up by authorities and still is a bit. So your statement is utterly wrong. I'm tempted to bring up the Mass genocide of ethinic Eastern European Albanians by non white Turks as another example. But I'm certain we've argued on that subject before.

This is another pair of false presumptions on your part.

Firstly, I do know how the number is broken down, and I am well aware that 2/3rds of the figure are white. Blacks are still ~2.5 times as likely, per capita, to be killed by police.

Secondly, it wasn't in the section of my post about 'racism/white supremacy'. It was a reference to police brutality in general, but the statistics do support a racial bias angle as well.

so if there's a criminal shooting people and the police kill them then it's police brutality? Do those stats break down what race the police officer involved was? That stat means nothing

I guess it's a good thing no one here is denying that.

Systemic biases are still a thing, and in societies controlled by Caucasians, whites have the bulk of the advantages.

"controlled by caucasians", wow that's a loaded statement.....who would've thunk that societies with a majority of a race would control it.....that's not a thing that every country in the world has is it? But it's only bad if a certain race does it?

Look I'm not saying black do not get a raw deal in SOME circumstances, such as what happened recently. Hell I wouldn't care if they gave that ex copper the death sentance. I actually think he deserves it. But I'd like to see overall less hatred less racist rhetoric from ALL sides.

I'm out because this has derailed the thread and will probably be deleted by a mass moderator purge pretty soon. But ON the subject..... mass gatherings of people at THIS time is MONUMENTALLY STUPID IMO.

 

[askavir]

One of the big positive developments over here is that we are now actually able to test people who think they might have it. Contact tracing is far easier to do now, and should help in slowing a second wave initially to the point we can take proper action sooner. Hopefully that would mean these 'waves' would be relatively brief, with increasingly longer periods of increasingly less restrictions. Starting next week with pubs with limited capacity in Belgium, which already started in the Netherlands this week.

We'll know in two weeks.

Btw I was meaning to ask you about this but meanwhile it slipped my mind. What do you think went wrong in Belgium for the mortality rate to be so high? Was it something (or some things) specific or really just bad luck? There are some countries that seemed to have had it much worse than others for no apparent cause (like portugal and spain for instance).

 

[Ian Skippy]

Btw I was meaning to ask you about this but meanwhile it slipped my mind. What do you think went wrong in Belgium for the mortality rate to be so high? Was it something (or some things) specific or really just bad luck? There are some countries that seemed to have had it much worse than others for no apparent cause (like portugal and spain for instance).

The biggest reason for why mortality is so high is because it turns out Belgium estimated total casualties best. By including 'presumed cases' we have a much higher reported fatality rate, but when you compare excess mortality a rather different picture appears. Mostly that in Belgium excess mortality and COVID19 fatalities are pretty much identical numbers, whereas in most countries the latter is a fraction of the former.

Secondly: population density. When you ignore Malta, San Marino and the Vatican, the Netherlands and Belgium have far higher population density than any other country in Europe. For example, it is 4-5x higher compared with Portugal. Its pretty much the biggest predictor: the more people live the closer together, the worse it spreads.

 

[Ian Phillips]

Last chance saloon.

The discussion about racism is getting far too personal.

Keep it to current events and do not drag up past events from other countries please. Points can be made about the current protests (and causes thereof) and health
crises.
Anything else is deemed to be off topic.

 

[Leper Messiah]

bejaysus, the gathering in London...no social distancing whatsoever.....2nd wave gonna start soon.....SMH.

 

[Synkreto]

Funny . Now that soccer is on again ( only on TV tough, no people allowed in the stadiums ), and people can go have beers together again, and women get haricuts...the all so tragical murder of Germany's Grundgesetz and its citizen's GrundRechte....does not seem to be a problem anymore . At all . Where thousands have been protesting weeks ago....you nowadays find 50 .

Panem et circenses .

And a lot of people in Germany really think/thought ( in last weeks ) politicians are stupid XD . And I think "Look in the mirror, fools ! Donkeys you are, pulling the car on which sits a man with a rod from which on a thread dangles a carrot in front of your nose(s) . And you...keep pulling, and pulling, and pulling... "

Divide and conquer .

I wish more people in the world would understand that dividing us...is one of the most successfull tricks . Have the people go up against each other . Police against Protesters. Nazis against Antifa . Just...make 'em, as many of 'em as possible...go up against each other . Instead of focussing their energies on doing/achieiveing/Creating what they really want . THAT is the power of "taking sides" . It makes people pawns. It trains your brain, your attitude, your behaviour into a routine of "Things I am FOR, and Things I am AGAINST, and possibly will FIGHT ! Ideologies I accept, and ideologies I condemn ." Etc.etc.etc. It makes you an unruly, not peacefull person . It makes you a person constantly contributing to the suffering on Earth .

I am on noone's side . I am on everyone's side .

 

[WeComeInPeace]

I wish more people in the world would understand that dividing us...is one of the most successfull tricks

I wonder if that would work on some of the people behind all the dividing. Play them against each other. Interesting thought, because all the good ol' well known methods of making the World become a better place obviously don't seem work very well.