Question for Open players who don't like PVP/ganking... help me understand

[Mohrgan]

How do you know it's a myth? Do you know these players? Cause I know these players. I'm in chat with them almost every day.

You missed the main part of my comment, I want more than anything, PvP content that would be inviting to all players because I agree, it would end up being the same couple thousand players or so fighting each other over and over again.

"In my bubble"...

And, yeah I, lets say I 'Knew', those guys. I was one of them, in my earliest online gaming days. I have evolved, but not lost my memory. I have even spent the better part of a year in an E|D PvP centered player group. I earned both PvE and PvP tags with that group. I believe I have some insight...

 

[Agony_Aunt]

The thing if find most amusing about gankers is how they love to downtalk about carebears, when every day, there are "carebears" playing in solo who are probably taking more risks and facing more danger than your average ganker.

The biggest carebears in this game are the gankers.

And in that, i do not include the PvPers who seek out challenging combat of course. I mean specifically those who do things like hang around above engineer bases and similar looking for easy kills. Carebears, the lot of them.

 

[Borko]

This is why i like the gold rushes (currently: mining for laser painite). Put enough credits in someone’s piggy bank and rebuy screens become irrelevant. ‘Oh noes! I just got blowed up and lost .03 percent of my bank balance! Eeek!’

The psychological component of getting exploded is harder, and nobody ever talks about it. We all love our ships — why else would we be playing? — and seeing them turned into smouldering wreckage is tough. At first. That’s why I’m grateful to guys like Ganks; not only will they show you what a rebuy screen looks like, they’ll help you with the process of both getting used to same or avoiding it. I haven’t even been popped by Ganks in-game (time zone issues, i am watching for you!), but i feel a better pilot just from his approach. ‘Yes, you’ll die. Then I’ll show you how to not die.’

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Well, the way I see it, there are 3 types of players. Players that will get ganked and switch to solo, it is of my opinion that solo is the best option for them anyways because they are not prepared to accept all that open has to offer. Then there are players that will get ganked and maybe get frustrated by it and block the ganker but they will just continue on doing what they're doing and attempt to shape open to the way they want it. Then there's player number 3 that will get ganked and wonder why they died, how to survive and eventually how to fight back and they fully except open the way that it is. These are the players that I'm after. I've already had over a dozen of my gank victims join GEA for that exact reason. This is a large part of why I gank, to find these players and hopefully train them to be badass PvPers, even if they end up using their skills to came after me.

Oh my! How noble of you! I can see your goals are entirely altruistic!

One thing i find strange is how it seems to be only elements of the ganker community who seem to think others should play the game as they do and that people need to be pushed away (and derided for it) or play the game the way they do.

No other part of the community seems to push people to play how they do nor expects others to like what they do. You don't see explorers talking down about miners and traders. You don't see PvE combat players talking down about explorers. No other demographic seems to care or be concerned about how others play the game... except for certain PvPers.

Thing is, gankers need targets. No other group needs targets. Competitive PvPers can find friendlies to fight against. Everyone else can get along without other people, but can coop as and when they want.

Gankers need others, others don't need gankers.

 

[Sir Ganksalot]

Oh my! How noble of you! I can see your goals are entirely altruistic!

One thing i find strange is how it seems to be only elements of the ganker community who seem to think others should play the game as they do and that people need to be pushed away (and derided for it) or play the game the way they do.

No other part of the community seems to push people to play how they do nor expects others to like what they do. You don't see explorers talking down about miners and traders. You don't see PvE combat players talking down about explorers. No other demographic seems to care or be concerned about how others play the game... except for certain PvPers.

Thing is, gankers need targets. No other group needs targets. Competitive PvPers can find friendlies to fight against. Everyone else can get along without other people, but can coop as and when they want.

Gankers need others, others don't need gankers.

I don't need your acceptance. You obviously have an extreme hatefulness towards gankers.
Maybe someday I can change your mind that we're not all bad people.
As a PvPer though, I will say thank you for your help with the BGS at San Tu.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

You just wrongly assume that all gankers have bad attitudes and only want easy targets.

The definition of gankers is people who want easy targets.

If your definition of ganker is different to that, then we need to clairfy it and ideally call it something other than ganking.

 

[Mohrgan]

Well, the way I see it, there are 3 types of players. Players that will get ganked and switch to solo, it is of my opinion that solo is the best option for them anyways because they are not prepared to accept all that open has to offer. Then there are players that will get ganked and maybe get frustrated by it and block the ganker but they will just continue on doing what they're doing and attempt to shape open to the way they want it. Then there's player number 3 that will get ganked and wonder why they died, how to survive and eventually how to fight back and they fully except open the way that it is. These are the players that I'm after. I've already had over a dozen of my gank victims join GEA for that exact reason. This is a large part of why I gank, to find these players and hopefully train them to be badass PvPers, even if they end up using their skills to came after me.

I can attest to a 4th type. The player that after facing the rigors of open, decide they're not interested anymore. The 4th kind decide that they get what they want from the game, without the 'Lord of the Flies' peanut gallery. The 4th kind say, let those in open do what they want, I'll be over here getting my happees without them.

I will also attest to any number of other types of players that choose and pursue their own interests in the game. I'm guessing there may even be hundreds or thousands of different kind of players. Creating stereotypes just to get good seating in the 'who's-cool' section, isn't much different than the "bored-PvPer = ganker" justification.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I don't need your acceptance. You obviously have an extreme hatefulness towards gankers.
Maybe someday I can change your mind that we're not all bad people.
As a PvPer though, I will say thank you for your help with the BGS at San Tu.

Hatefulness? LOL, no. I just find their attempts at justifying what they do rather sad.

PvP is great fun, if its competetitve, with people on a level playing field. That is not what gankers want. How can you get your gank on if someone shoots back?! That's dangerous!

 

[Sir Ganksalot]

Hatefulness? LOL, no. I just find their attempts at justifying what they do rather sad.

PvP is great fun, if its competetitve, with people on a level playing field. That is not what gankers want. How can you get your gank on if someone shoots back?! That's dangerous!

Well I am both. Sometimes I gank and most of the time I fight against players I have no hope to beat.
And I'm not alone, there are many others like me.

I give you no justification for ganking. Its just fun to play as the bad guy is all. There are things I try to achieve through my ganking sure, but it's not a justification. Just to be clear.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

The thing if find most amusing about gankers is how they love to downtalk about carebears, when every day, there are "carebears" playing in solo who are probably taking more risks and facing more danger than your average ganker.

The biggest carebears in this game are the gankers.

And in that, i do not include the PvPers who seek out challenging combat of course. I mean specifically those who do things like hang around above engineer bases and similar looking for easy kills. Carebears, the lot of them.

Well yes those types who do their own credit&engineering grinds in solo and then whine about non-gankers not doing their gameplay in open.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

Yes but many times it's "become my friend and I will teach you how to escape and eventually fight back".

The 'fight back' bit is somewhat problematic in this game though, and I'm not sure how many of those padawans/younglings under your wing realise this.

Unless they're willing to go all-in on a bespoke PvP combat build and fly that going forward, in anything else, even a dedicated combat PvE ship they will not see results even against weak-ish gankers who don't fly in a wing, simply because the game of rock-paper-scissors required to counter whatever you're facing can become quite frustrating.

I dip my toes into PvP every now and again, and I have to admit that as much as I enjoy some organic combat arising eg. the current CG being a good setup for this, more often than not the only option is to retreat, because almost all gankers run the kind of ships most PvE builds, as sturdy as they might be, are completely useless against, from an offensive viewpoint at least. And even if you're lucky, the ganker then usually runs if shields drop to a ring (or entirely thanks to torps), at least in my experience.

You could theoretically count that as a victory, but it's as shallow as it gets, with nothing to show for at all. And that's usually only if you limit your playstyle to PvP with all that that entails (even just finding gankers can be a test of patience, made worse with the ongoing instancing issues).

Just thought it's worth pointing out if nothing else - the whole idea of getting revenge on those bad boys that wronged you is all but a pipedream, especially if they're cheesing existing game mechanics (ship builds and combat tactics) and are decent pilots. Would love to be proven wrong about this but in my experience there's no way to win without sacrificing your entire playstyle if you're not 100% dedicated to PvP (I play 90% PvE, 10% 'PvP' i.e. cat-and-mouse at best).

 

[Chainguns]

Well, the way I see it, there are 3 types of players. Players that will get ganked and switch to solo, it is of my opinion that solo is the best option for them anyways because they are not prepared to accept all that open has to offer.

What, not prepared to face up to near certain rebuy from a wing of G5 meta murder boats - hahaha they truly deserve our pity, these people are indeed a lost cause and I too look down on them as untermensch, they're beyond salvation and should be shadowbanned for good into lonely mode /s.

I don't know how demanding your career is, but some people just want to unwind a bit after a long brutal day without the stress of losing 4 grind hours in 4 seconds for no reason. They probably face 'Open' mode+ in real life and want to cut that carp out for 30 mins before bedtime and just shoot a rock or kill a clay pidgeon NPC.

Elite's PvP system is a marvel of design in all ways except one - you have 0% hope of victory (hi wake =/= victory) when optimally outfitted for one of the official careers, PvE combat, trading or exploring. Careers that offer game rewards unlike PvP. Most rational people facing a rigged game choose (wisely) to not play at all. Fortunately Elite - due to a miscommunication at kickstarter - offers a mode where you can opt out of the rigged part of the game (PvP vs PvE) and still play (ie solo mode).

 

[Screemonster]

This is why i like the gold rushes (currently: mining for laser painite). Put enough credits in someone’s piggy bank and rebuy screens become irrelevant. ‘Oh noes! I just got blowed up and lost .03 percent of my bank balance! Eeek!’

The psychological component of getting exploded is harder, and nobody ever talks about it. We all love our ships — why else would we be playing? — and seeing them turned into smouldering wreckage is tough. At first. That’s why I’m grateful to guys like Ganks; not only will they show you what a rebuy screen looks like, they’ll help you with the process of both getting used to same or avoiding it. I haven’t even been popped by Ganks in-game (time zone issues, i am watching for you!), but i feel a better pilot just from his approach. ‘Yes, you’ll die. Then I’ll show you how to not die.’

When I was still a PG kiddie, I used to keep track of my insurance claims - for the longest time it was only the one, when I hadn't learned how to outfit my first viper for a CZ or the infinitely more important lesson of when to bail from a bad fight.

Then I fitted myself out a 900m/s ieagle and hit up a canyon. My clunky old rig of the time couldn't render terrain as fast as that ship could fly and I ended up hitting a rock that literally didn't appear until after I hit it.
That rebuy was cheaper than rearming my ammunition on some ships.
A few more runs, and I've pretty much become accustomed to the idea that any time I take that thing out, the odds are pretty high that I'm going to see the insurance screen before I see station services again.
Now, a rebuy is more of an inconvenience than it is a blow to the ego. If it's even that. Last time I saw the rebuy screen, it was more inconvenient that I hadn't checked where the nearest detention facility was before deliberately getting myself shot by the station for the sake of science. (not normal behaviour, but bugtesting this: https://issues.frontierstore.net/issue-detail/19360 )

Last time I sent a player to the rebuy screen, it was a guy attacking miners in Borann - and the last thing he said to me before popping was "lmao gg". If there's one thing your typical ganker doesn't have, it's a sensitivity to the rebuy screen.

 

[CaptainPugwash]

The thing is, we've all fought each other and know how what the outcome will be 90% of the time. Most of us gank because we're just bored of fighting the same people over and over again.

The problem with what we have set up is that it is very intimidating for new people to join.
I want to see some kind content that new players will feel more welcome to join.
I can tell you that for me personally, if there was some kind of PvP content that could keep me busy fighting consenting players, I would probably never gank again.

I can certainly see where you're coming from, and thanks for the candid appraisal of the intimidation factor of the PvP scene - I for one am intimidated, as I regularly get spanked by my squadron pals. The sidey massacre thing that Exegious did a few times was certainly much more open to all, and one thing I would like to see is some kind of PvP arena similar to CQC but with a greater selection of ships that allow rails, PAs etc. Also PowerPlay should really be the way to get 'meaningful' PvP going (cue Rubbernuke )

 

[Deleted member 121570]

Then I fitted myself out a 900m/s ieagle and hit up a canyon. My clunky old rig of the time couldn't render terrain as fast as that ship could fly and I ended up hitting a rock that literally didn't appear until after I hit it.
That rebuy was cheaper than rearming my ammunition on some ships.
A few more runs, and I've pretty much become accustomed to the idea that any time I take that thing out, the odds are pretty high that I'm going to see the insurance screen before I see station services again.

Try ditching the iEagle and refitting that Viper for high speed / permaboost. Game-changer.
iEagles really suck for high speed stuff - junk acceleration.
The Viper will kill you a whole load more! Much fun to be had.

 

[Screemonster]

Try ditching the iEagle and refitting that Viper for high speed / permaboost. Game-changer.
iEagles really suck for high speed stuff - junk acceleration.
The Viper will kill you a whole load more! Much fun to be had.

hahaha, sadly my first combat viper was a 4, not a 3. After the first rebuy I went and refitted it and it didn't explode again. Having a 4 digit hull without any engineering is something of a gamechanger for a starting player, haha.

 

[Deleted member 121570]

hahaha, sadly my first combat viper was a 4, not a 3. After the first rebuy I went and refitted it and it didn't explode again. Having a 4 digit hull without any engineering is something of a gamechanger for a starting player, haha.

Time for mk3 for sure then, if you're enjoying the iEagle. Massive jump in challenge and fun.

 

[Ian Skippy]

The 'fight back' bit is somewhat problematic in this game though, and I'm not sure how many of those padawans/younglings under your wing realise this.

Unless they're willing to go all-in on a bespoke PvP combat build and fly that going forward, in anything else, even a dedicated combat PvE ship they will not see results even against weak-ish gankers who don't fly in a wing, simply because the game of rock-paper-scissors required to counter whatever you're facing can become quite frustrating.

I dip my toes into PvP every now and again, and I have to admit that as much as I enjoy some organic combat arising eg. the current CG being a good setup for this, more often than not the only option is to retreat, because almost all gankers run the kind of ships most PvE builds, as sturdy as they might be, are completely useless against, from an offensive viewpoint at least. And even if you're lucky, the ganker then usually runs if shields drop to a ring (or entirely thanks to torps), at least in my experience.

You could theoretically count that as a victory, but it's as shallow as it gets, with nothing to show for at all. And that's usually only if you limit your playstyle to PvP with all that that entails (even just finding gankers can be a test of patience, made worse with the ongoing instancing issues).

Just thought it's worth pointing out if nothing else - the whole idea of getting revenge on those bad boys that wronged you is all but a pipedream, especially if they're cheesing existing game mechanics (ship builds and combat tactics) and are decent pilots. Would love to be proven wrong about this but in my experience there's no way to win without sacrificing your entire playstyle if you're not 100% dedicated to PvP (I play 90% PvE, 10% 'PvP' i.e. cat-and-mouse at best).

Yup; you can only kill someone when the other is both inexperienced and flying a much weaker ship, or in a duel with agreed upon rules.

This makes 'fighting back' pointless. Gankers fly ships sufficiently strong you can never prevent them from hi-waking. As such PvP is either 1) trolling, 2) duelling, 3) a complete waste of time.

Fun, exciting, organic and meaningful PvP does not exist in this game. ED is terrible for it and FD has no interest in focusing on it. Maybe SW: squadrons has what it takes when it comes to that.

As to those "teaching their victims": let me save you the time. The lesson is this:

Spoiler

Press J.

A simple system-wide message would do the trick.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

Yup; you can only kill someone when the other is both inexperienced and flying a much weaker ship, or in a duel with agreed upon rules.

This makes 'fighting back' pointless. Gankers fly ships sufficiently strong you can never prevent them from hi-waking. As such PvP is either 1) trolling, 2) duelling, 3) a complete waste of time.

Fun, exciting, organic and meaningful PvP does not exist in this game. ED is terrible for it and FD has no interest in focusing on it. Maybe SW: squadrons has what it takes when it comes to that.

As to those "teaching their victims": let me save you the time. The lesson is this:

Spoiler

Press J.

A simple system-wide message would do the trick.

I'm just glad that I don't need to play with/against other players to have a good time in the game - dipping in and out of a sort of 'light-touch' PvP/coop is entertaining for me, but in small doses and wedged between extensive sessions of PvE (spent a good few hours today doing some Ram Tah work for a change in scenery, needed that after spending the whole evening in Eurybia the night before) - I wouldn't want to rely on the former to get enjoyment out of the game. So with that in mind, ED works pretty well for me personally. Options.

 

[VR Roxydog]

Well - finally got my first gank and was the most exciting combat I've had yet last night.
I had half the landmines for Liz Ryder and combat bonds for Juri flying my Krait Mk2 - hull slightly damaged beforehand from a NPC encounter before getting to Eurabia.

There was probably 7 or 8 hollow squares near Liz Ryder's planet so a good chance of someone going for me but no way I was backing off haha. Got pulled by a ( i think) FAS fragboat maybe Master level (same as me) - no comms from him and none from me as I'm in VR and straight in shooting.
It was neck and neck in the damage to each other so no chance of me jumping out - we were both close to 6% hull left when he got a good fragload into me and blew me up haha.
I would have wished him GG if I could get to comms easier but I'm sure he knew anyway so thanks Commander for the great fight.
I was using 3 plasma rails and 2 turret pulses - really big difference fighting a real player - I'll be keeping this setup for more rail practice.

I'll be getting more landmines and I'll be back.