Drew Wagar's Thoughts

[Winterwalker]

didn't consider realizing the full potential of its USPs.

er .. You do realise FD are developing the game, right?

Megaship interiors (plus working escape pods) nice, tagging through point @ emotes, nice, direct player to NPC interaction in bases nice + potential opened up, all coming in update 8 next week and after that; carrier interiors, a new SRV and tbc's. Look up Supercruise News #49 on youtube for details.

How can potential ever be called unrealised when the process of it's development is still in progress?
That's somewhat contradictory.

 

[Winterwalker]

(Horizons only)

lol

 

[Sighman]

Well, this should be fun.

A 4-5 week tour with Drew of his favourite haunts, sights & sounds of E: D (Horizons only) over the last 9 years, starting 18th November.

o7 Commanders.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDg9Y7AG67A

That recent Galnet News Digest wasn't so wide of the mark after all.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

er .. You do realise FD are developing the game, right?

Megaship interiors (plus working escape pods) nice, tagging through point @ emotes, nice, direct player to NPC interaction in bases nice + potential opened up, all coming in update 8 next week and after that; carrier interiors, a new SRV and tbc's. Look up Supercruise News #49 on youtube for details.

How can potential ever be called unrealised when the process of it's development is still in progress?
That's somewhat contradictory.

I should probably not post this but...

I tend to get excited about a new DLC that delivers 20 hours of rich story content. Or a dozen or so new and detailed vehicles. Or further opening up the game map. Or introducing completely new and engaging gameplay loops. Or significant performance improvements.

I'm afraid I can't get even remotely aroused about anything you just listed above, and the way you worded it seems to suggest it's anything to write home about (possibly a misunderstanding on my part). Sorry. Maybe it's my fault for wanting too much and being a spoilt little brat. I'm sure those tbc's will be worth waiting for for months though.

 

[ubermick]

I'll try not to laugh......

Sake, Colin... stop enabling such cheekiness!

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

er .. You do realise FD are developing the game, right?

Megaship interiors (plus working escape pods) nice, tagging through point @ emotes, nice, direct player to NPC interaction in bases nice + potential opened up, all coming in update 8 next week and after that; carrier interiors, a new SRV and tbc's. Look up Supercruise News #49 on youtube for details.

How can potential ever be called unrealised when the process of it's development is still in progress?
That's somewhat contradictory.

The planet-tech aside, which is to be honest underwhelming considering the promises (ice planet drafts, for example), none of the new development focuses on the core USPs that made Elite one of its kind.

No additional astronomical objects, or updates on the stars' graphics,etc.. No new lore. No more focus on flight or the spaceships, and frankly no focus on the procedural wizardy.

 

[Winterwalker]

I'm afraid I can't get even remotely aroused about anything you just listed above, and the way you worded it seems to suggest it's anything to write home about (possibly a misunderstanding on my part). Sorry. Maybe it's my fault for wanting too much and being a spoilt little brat. I'm sure those tbc's will be worth waiting for for months though.

Tools for the sandbox surely. Dom mentioned in passing the (unconfirmed) idea of meeting one NPC who gives you a clue to another, some eventual mystery to solve? (See this guy, he might know x). Each 'small' tool update surely opens up more of that potential (and writing extended missions before all the tools are in place is going off half cocked, a waste of time. By definition they can't be included in the mission because they're not written yet. Sharpened chisels first, Statue of David .. next)

The planet-tech aside, which is to be honest underwhelming considering the promises (ice planet drafts, for example), none of the new development focuses on the core USPs that made Elite one of its kind.

No additional astronomical objects, or updates on the stars' graphics,etc.. No new lore. No more focus on flight or the spaceships, and frankly no focus on the procedural wizardy.

On the first I see a huge improvement in the realism and complexity of surfaces, so I really don't know what you're looking at. Scattering some trees is going to be a snap after that.

No new lore but does EVERY update HAVE to include new lore to be a success? Maybe - and call me Gerald if you like - the focus this time was on including a new core mechanic, one that (quote from yesterday stream) can be used to communicate (lore) exposition in a FAR more interesting way than reading it in any CODEX.

As for procedural wizardry .. this time, reworked planet surfaces. Yes we had surfaces in Horizons and it's a rework this time but new surfaces suits this update. I have seen sedimentary rock in Odyssey mind you though. And I don't mean some striation in a scatter riock or anything, I mean sedimentts in the PG .. of a canyon wall. Our Lord DBOBE of the Braben even 'liked' my screenshot of it.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

Tools for the sandbox surely. Dom mentioned in passing the (unconfirmed) idea of meeting one NPC who gives you a clue to another, some eventual mystery to solve? (See this guy, he might know x). Each 'small' tool update surely opens up more of that potential (and writing extended missions before all the tools are in place is going off half cocked, a waste of time. By definition they can't be included in the mission because they're not written yet. Sharpened chisels first, Statue of David .. next)

I probably shouldn't complain about new stuff, it's just that these are the kind of things that I expected to be part of the DLC at launch, not 5 months later peu a peu, while it's kind of presented as if it's bonus content that one should be grateful about. My patience to go through the whole hypetrain buildup until they finally get released (don't think the SRV, which is the only bit I'm interested in, will be part of #8 unless I'm mistaken?) is pretty much non-existent now. Anyways I'll stop it now.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

No new lore but does EVERY update HAVE to include new lore to be a success?

I think "no new lore" is probably dubious, too.

1) They're releasing new lore continually through the Galnet story arcs, CGs, POIs, etc. I wouldn't expect that to be a once every five years "hey, new lore" thing. As you say, it gives them more capabilities to get that lore across to players ... but they already have more than enough capabilities to tell a story as it is.
2) If they use the new capabilities Odyssey does provide to put anything significant in that was Odyssey-exclusive before the console release the consequences would be incredibly bad.
3) Frontline Solutions are a better demonstration of just how messed up 34th century society is than pretty much anything else the game has done. There's quite a lot more detail of the setting itself being presented that was previously just written down. It's just not got a big "lore" label on it.

 

[Winterwalker]

I probably shouldn't complain about new stuff, it's just that these are the kind of things that I expected to be part of the DLC at launch, not 5 months later peu a peu, while it's kind of presented as if it's bonus content that one should be grateful about. My patience to go through the whole hypetrain buildup until they finally get released (don't think the SRV, which is the only bit I'm interested in, will be part of #8 unless I'm mistaken?) is pretty much non-existent now. Anyways I'll stop it now.

Nah you're alright. No, SRV not in 8.

I think we saw the same sort of thing with Horizons really, 1.0 was nothing when you compare it to where Horizons eventually got to. My assumption has always been that gradual and continuous improvement is the style and while FD isn't the tiny studio it was it's still no megacorp. I can see the logic in the way they structure the workflow. Might be a bit arthouse to do it in public but then again FD aren't a (yet) a megacorp. Plus - personally - I kind of like it when Elite is out on the edge a bit.

 

[Winterwalker]

2) If they use the new capabilities Odyssey does provide to put anything significant in that was Odyssey-exclusive before the console release the consequences would be incredibly bad.

That's extremely fair comment.

 

[Winterwalker]

I probably shouldn't complain about new stuff, it's just that these are the kind of things that I expected to be part of the DLC at launch, not 5 months later peu a peu, while it's kind of presented as if it's bonus content that one should be grateful about. My patience to go through the whole hypetrain buildup until they finally get released (don't think the SRV, which is the only bit I'm interested in, will be part of #8 unless I'm mistaken?) is pretty much non-existent now. Anyways I'll stop it now.

Oh yeah. And I put quite a lot of it down to the kickstarter / presale model ED started out with. I think it's a bad model. Might seem a necessity in some ways but it puts all the funding at the wrong end really (even if on the face of it it seems not to). But get paid and THEN do the development?? Got to wean yourself off that one, pronto.

I see Odyssey being a bit halfway between presalling and selling a completed expansion .. which is tricky for ED because it's been; sale - horizons - beyond! - odyssey - sale .. so you're a long time between pay days. Can't imagine FD EVER wanting to mess about with pre-dev sales, ever again. Everyone and their dog is an expert in game development suddenly, while they wait for their pre-buy to be completed. Yikes.

If Odyssey seems halfbaked - and I'd say it probably is but much more marginally than Horizons 1.0 was - that's probably why. But semi baked or not Odyssey is still a major, big code update with tons of it being in the back end. Unfortunately though you don't get to sell the back end. Code makes a really boring poster .. and looks rubbish on youtube.

 

[Old Duck]

I think "no new lore" is probably dubious, too.

My personal problem is not lack of lore, but rather contradictory lore. For example, IIRC Elite was originally designed with the idea of no FTL comms, and that's why we have to transport data by hand, and why we don't have access to market data in systems we haven't recently visited. It's actually a really cool idea, one that was nicely integrated into TV shows like Andromeda. Yet here comes telepresence to ED with insanely high bandwidth that works instantly across the galaxy (unless you're using it to pilot your own SLF, in which case the range is less than a walkie talkie). And now we have sudo-gravity in outposts that works on drinks and rubbish, but not people who require magnetic boots. Those are just two examples of contradictory lore.

I actually would prefer no lore over detailed but internally-inconsistent lore. I think this is part of Drew's issue, he's invested in "old lore" that has been retconned or forgotten or contradicted. I can see how as an author this would bug him more than others. Speaking of no lore over contradictory lore, I can't even easily pretend that telepresence is not a thing, because Frontier goes out of their way to remind me that the person sitting next to me is a hologram, including phasing effects when I go into supercruise and a weird "see through" effect (like a ghost) when the sun is behind them. Oh, and "I'm taking telepresence control of the SLF!" lines from my NPC crew.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

Oh yeah. And I put quite a lot of it down to the kickstarter / presale model ED started out with. I think it's a bad model. Might seem a necessity in some ways but it puts all the funding at the wrong end really (even if on the face of it it seems not to). But get paid and THEN do the development??

I see Odyssey being a bit halfway between presalling and selling a completed expansion .. which is tricky for ED because it's been; sale - horizons - beyond! - odyssey - sale .. so you're a long time between pay days. Can't imagine FD EVER wanting to mess about with pre-dev sales, ever again. EVERYONE (and their dog) is an expert in game development suddenly, while they wait for their pre-buy to be completed. Yikes.

If Odyssey seems halfbaked - and I'd say it probably is but much more marginally than Horizons 1.0 was - that's probably why. But halfbaked or not Odyssey is still a MAJOR code update, with tons of it being in the back end. Unfortunately though you don't get to sell the back end. Code makes a REALLY boring poster and looks rubbish on youtube.

What I will say is Frontier clearly stated in advance that Odyssey would be a meaty, feature complete DLC which does not follow the same model as previous expansions, so I adjusted my expectations accordingly.

It also priced the DLC at a very confident price point, which implicitly suggested the above would ring true.

If there's one thing I absolutely hate it's overselling and underdelivering. If they were upfront about the clear challenges they obviously faced well in advance of release, I would've understood and cut them a lot more slack, but instead they doubled down on the (unrealistic) PR pre launch.

It's turned me from fanboy to (almost) hater within a pretty short timeframe, and I will think thrice of giving them any money ever again, let alone on a pre-order basis. And I'm still not convinced they have really learned the right lessons from this trainwreck of a launch either.

 

[Winterwalker]

What I will say is Frontier clearly stated in advance that Odyssey would be a meaty, feature complete DLC which does not follow the same model as previous expansions, so I adjusted my expectations accordingly.

I agree that was the plan. However, I don't think Covid was irrelevant either. I really can't see how it couldn't have affected the rate at which a studio, used to working together, bouncing ideas, comparing notes in open plan offiices can work. It's going to slow you down. It's not an excuse maybe but it has been a reality. Enough for me to cut some slack, for definite.

 

[Phoenix_Dfire]

Sake, Colin... stop enabling such cheekiness!

That has nothing to do with Me or Lave Radio, That's Galnet news doing the news so we don't have to.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

I agree that was the plan. However, I don't think Covid was irrelevant either. I really can't see how it couldn't have affected the rate at which a studio, used to working together, bouncing ideas, comparing notes in open plan offiices can work. It's going to slow you down. It's not an excuse maybe but it has been a reality. Enough for me to cut some slack, for definite.

I've been (a small) part of working global projects that without trying to brag dwarves anything Frontier would have in its scope (system changes and joint venture setup affecting the entire business incl supply chains across all timezones and spanning over dozens of countries and cultures etc) and things worked surpringly well on a remote work basis so I'm less inclined to accept covid as an excuse here... Especially because Frontier has a certain track record in terms of how they deliver their software, even during non pandemic times. So sure, it may not have helped, but I reckon the reasons for the poor launch were more fundamental than that.

 

[Winterwalker]

I've been (a small) part of working global projects that without trying to brag dwarves anything Frontier would have in its scope (system changes and joint venture setup affecting the entire business incl supply chains across all timezones and spanning over dozens of countries and cultures etc) and things worked surpringly well on a remote work basis so I'm less inclined to accept covid as an excuse here... Especially because Frontier has a certain track record in terms of how they deliver their software, even during non pandemic times. So sure, it may not have helped, but I reckon the reasons for the poor launch were more fundamental than that.

True but I wonder if the sector, type of work can have a bearing. Don't know what sector you're in but FD are a weird mix of technical work AND artistic creativity .. and artistic stuff does tend to feed better off a collegiate environment? Ideas over coffee and all that. Plus they were having to get actors in to record voices, socially distanced the while? So I can see that slowing things down .. then of course the compatability testing one way or another, didn't (umm) work out. Obviously a massive boob but unforgivable? I could be wrong but - whether point updates are big enough or not - I can't remember anything that horrendous happening in ED before and the only thing that's changed in the meanwhile has been the pandemic.

(I hope they inject a Galnet storyline based on it some time, meet Mr X at Base Bravo .. but don't forget your shots/progenitor cells, Tharg Pox is disrupting the BGS everywhere!).

 

[Deleted member 182079]

True but I wonder if the sector, type of work can have a bearing. Don't know what sector you're in but FD are a weird mix of technical work AND artistic creativity .. and artistic stuff does tend to feed better off a collegiate environment? Ideas over coffee and all that. Plus they were having to get actors in to record voices, socially distanced the while? So I can see that slowing things down .. then of course the compatability testing one way or another, didn't (umm) work out. Obviously a massive boob but unforgivable? I could be wrong but - whether point updates are big enough or not - I can't remember anything that horrendous happening in ED before and the only thing that's changed in the meanwhile has been the pandemic.

(I hope they inject a Galnet storyline based on it some time, meet Mr X at Base Bravo .. but don't forget your shots/progenitor cells, Tharg Pox is disrupting the BGS everywhere!).

Prefer not to give too much detail but it's manufacturing and in a highly regulated industry. I could sort of appreciate if the challenge would be around reliance on specific hardware etc. and yeah I might be unnecessarily harsh on them.

At the same time, I need to bounce stuff off each other with my colleagues who often aren't even in the same timezone and it does work pretty well via WebEx/Teams - I guess it depends on the individuals involved as well how well they can adapt to remote working as it does have its challenges if you're not used to it - personally I've been doing this for over 7 years now so it's my "normal" state for much longer than most of my co-workers, but they also got used to it pretty quickly and the infrastructure was already there pre covid of course so hit the ground running.

 

[Winterwalker]

Prefer not to give too much detail but it's manufacturing and in a highly regulated industry. I could sort of appreciate if the challenge would be around reliance on specific hardware etc. and yeah I might be unnecessarily harsh on them.

Yeah , tricky. It's not that long since they moved into Frontier Towers either and that place looks more like a university than anything else to me. There's probably questions going around like, 'can the CNC machine even DO this' while sketching out even basic designs, so their more natural way of working is surely going to be quite organic. Different too if Odyssey itself weren't such a deep reach into the code. New SRV? No probs, copy/paste, patch it to the existing one. New "flight model"?? Er ....

I know Drew reckons the release was all about cash money for the greed of money men but honestly I'm not all that convinced by that either. Aside from the momentum of giving content to players (and we were already underfed, since Beyond). I can imagine a situation where you want 3D models OFF the modeller's desk and into the webcode office or you're paying at least one of them to sit there doing nowt. It's a disrupted supply chain basically because you're waiting fot the product to get out the door. It does reach a point where even if you take a risk with your reputation (and framerate problems I suspect were not predictad) idle workstations aren't exactly ideal either .. and if your CNC isn't active, as many hours as possible I'd be pretty surpsied too. i'm sure the lease on that isn't cheap, either!