Sorry for the late reply...this from 11 pages ago...2 days ago. Nice!
im sure some of you are paid to post negative things about star citizen, why else would you be doing it?
A number of us are quite convinced SC, as marketed to be, is a scam. They keep touting things, and they haven't delivered on anything they've promised before, so it really seems like a scam. As you said last week, do free-flys and dont pay them.
Without proof you have to give them the benefit of the doubt that star citizen isn't a scam.
But looking at the output, it might as well be. Would probably have the same thing in your hands if it was.
(Yes, just like elite might as well have been on a skeleton crew of 10 ever since 2017, we wouldn't have known the difference)
Also if star citizen releases bonus features that aren't on the roadmap, isn't that a factual sign that the roadmap is only marketing? Surely the roadmap would be updated if a completely leftfield and unexpected feature was being worked on.. because its the roadmap...?
Well, I gave them the benefit of the doubt probably until about 2017 or so. That was proof enough to stop giving them the benefit of the doubt. It is now up to them to prove me wrong. And sure, they may have a full version of SC ready to go that Terlin Whatface played through, but if they never release it, it may as well be a scam.
Difference is that FDEV is fully entitled to plan changes since they do the work on their own dime and risk, and only ask you for your money (with a few exceptions) when they think the product is ready, or almost, for release. CIG is the extreme opposite of that having being funded thanks to pre-selling to us and cashing on those "plans" 10+ years in advance to the tune of 400+ million and placing all the risk squarely on the backers. And still counting. I mean, I guess we could turn this thread into a LEP one or discuss Offline if you so wish but the differences would still be abysmal.
Fully agree here. Seems the discussion is starting to go from showing SC to be a scam and never a delivered product, to folks trying to show that EDH/O, though released, as not released products? What the?
The difference is by degree not in process. From my point of view, both asked for funds in 2012 for future products, neither of which have been fully delivered by 2022.
Plans change eh?
So we bought ED/H/O, which are 3 products, that no matter their state, FDev don't actually have to ever update or improve or add to afterwards, yet they still do, but you put it in the same boat as a group continually promising new stuff, garnering still millions of bucks, while also removing literally everything from the SC roadmap? Wow!
If memory serves, Horizon was asking for money upfront with a large percentage of the content to come in the future. Odyssey was the first occasion that Frontier were going to deliver all the content at point of sale.
Then, as we know, plans changed.
Horizons was released as a seasonal thing, or something, and they completed that. Odyssey is released fully. Surprisingly, to me, they plan to release FC interiors, to appease the rough release of Odyssey, but ultimately, they never have to do that, but they'll get a glimpse of how many actually use those interiors (2%?). What plans have been changed, other than they'll be giving us this extra free content?
Well I still haven't tried it, but I understand some folk think that CIG have delivered to a level as well.
The point I'm trying to clumsily make, is that if it is aceeptable for one developer to be able to change plans because of circumstances, then surely it's acepptable for all developers?
Unless of course 'plans change' is a fob off which in reality explains nothing useful.
That's quite a stretch. Last year, FDev showed videos of Odyssey working really well. Upon release, ala multiplayer across the planet (things aren't always so simple, when that happens it seems), things seemed to break and they have and are making changes to mend that. CIG, though removing things from view on a roadmap, while nothing is working, have not changed their plans much. Their plan, that they stick to, is release pics of ships, make money from that, and thats all. No need to release anything to you for the time being, if ever.
An Arx store and a thousand ship skins were also delivered! Nav beacons were also delivered! So much stuff delivered! Yet no ship interiors! Or any other meaningful space gameplay after Beyond!
As a means of maintaining an income, in a way that doesn't give anyone an upper hand, etc, in the game, that's a great way to do it. I'd say the opposite about CIg's way of selling big ships that'd clearly have an advantage, but since it wont ever be released, that doesn't matter.
Some of these SC content creators just don't get it, this includes SaltEMike who has been advocating for the removal of the release view of the roadmap for some time making the same argument that CIG made when they did basically make it meaningless.
He also thinks the release view is a distraction because it makes people upset, and that's what i find so frustrating about these people, even SaltEMike has absolutely no interest in holding CIG to account for progress
SaltEMike quotes from the video.
And this is the argument he has been making for some time, its the same argument CIG used in that we cannot be trusted to temper our expectations of anything on the roadmap being true.
I find it astonishing that people just don't expect CIG to deliver on anything, more than that it is our fault if we do and get upset when they don't, what? what is going on here????????
Again, what??? Is this guy happy for the game to continue in the same stagnant vain for another decade? And if it does whose fault is that??? what a ######### Moron!
Source: https://youtu.be/JlZL-ipGHBI?t=655
Seems to me maybe you're more like one of us than I realized before. So welcome to the club. But, maybe as you may see, we're not so happy the club has to exist at all. What we want is the game we pledged to to be playable and mean a bit more than just being wiped every few months. Do you think that will ever happen? If so, how soon? (the actual answer may be never).
There comes a point where you have to face up to the fact that CIG are taking their unaccountability for granted, that time comes when for years they have delivered little progress and as a result of that unashamedly remove the only thing people had to hold them to any slight of accountability.
That is what is really going on here and if you can't see that you're a ######## idiot, SaltEMike is a ####### idiot.
Plus, you just start to wonder why, after years of them barking about their fantastic fast, brilliant, content creation tools, they haven't released anything. (the actual answer may be they dont give a crap about you or their backers or promises they've made)
For some CIG can do no wrong. However, this may not stop others realising that giving CIG money for limited results may not, after all, be a particularly good idea.
How could that not be a particularly good idea? The worst thing that happens, when they run out of money, is someone else will pick it up and release it. The best thing would be they just go away. That may sound backwards, but if say Microsoft or whomever bailed him out before, does it again, we'll never hear the end of how great it would have been if only CR had enough money to finish it. F*** O**! Please!
I agree.
I gave CIG $35 in 2012 and nothing since.
I also gave Frontier .... money in 2012 and have suffered from change of plans, or maybe, if I'm being charitable, unrealised plans since.
Video games developers are businesses, but crowd funding had them acting like charities, expecting donations with no strings attached. As stated by AA, a poor model, especially for comsumers.
I gave $39 to CiG and $35 to FDev. But, solely through these threads, FDev is the only one providing me entertainment for both.
I mean, I agree with him in general.
Did you actually believe anything that was on the release view a year out?
CIG said not to trust it and they have proven by their actions that they are incapable of forecasting anything out a year.
If CIG just scaled back the release view to the next patch there probably would not be anywhere near this blowup.
People are mad that CIG said not nice things to them. Even when what CIG said was true. I can't believe CIG said it, but just goes to show how "open" they are.
I didnt have to see that, but going by what you say, I probably agree 100%. Was someone so ignorant, at this point, to believe anything from CIG? Shame on you! Then for them to insult them right to their faces, as to remove any confusion. If you give money to CIG at this point, you deserve nothing! (And will get that)
what? he says "so yes, i do feel CIG have made the right move here"
I agree with him.
After giving CIG money, after its so clear they wont be delivering, which is so wreckless, for CIg to point out folks are at fault for expecting things is probably the most honest reply. Then those folks who did that may look up to CIG....for their honesty. Wow!
they gutted the roadmap because they always gut the roadmap.
but im sure you were really looking forward to zero g push/pull and won't get it now because tyrer's team is on sq42.
will have to make do with pushing carts around.
I've been saying that for a while now lol. You give CIG money after they remove some stuff from roadmap, they up it by removing more. (And they make even more money!)
This is my take too. But see: they spank community and it asks for more and money keeps flowing.
The only thing CIG listen to:
View attachment 290488
It's kinda like CIG can do no wrong but it's more apt that the more wrong they do, the more they get rewarded. This, not to completely bore you with an analogy, is the same as....babies. Babies can do no wrong. In fact, when they do a wrong, well from the perspective of if an adult went doo-doo in his undies, that'd be wrong, babies get rewarded for that. Just part of being alive and the experience and they're learning.
And I know I don't even have to type it, but no offence intended towards babies at all! I think they'd be mature enough to know that.
So to the infinite babies of the gaming world, CIG, I say ah-goo! Good job! And as well, no offence, you just are what you are.