Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12

Sorry for the late reply...this from 11 pages ago...2 days ago. Nice!
im sure some of you are paid to post negative things about star citizen, why else would you be doing it?
A number of us are quite convinced SC, as marketed to be, is a scam. They keep touting things, and they haven't delivered on anything they've promised before, so it really seems like a scam. As you said last week, do free-flys and dont pay them.

Without proof you have to give them the benefit of the doubt that star citizen isn't a scam.

But looking at the output, it might as well be. Would probably have the same thing in your hands if it was.

(Yes, just like elite might as well have been on a skeleton crew of 10 ever since 2017, we wouldn't have known the difference)

Also if star citizen releases bonus features that aren't on the roadmap, isn't that a factual sign that the roadmap is only marketing? Surely the roadmap would be updated if a completely leftfield and unexpected feature was being worked on.. because its the roadmap...?
Well, I gave them the benefit of the doubt probably until about 2017 or so. That was proof enough to stop giving them the benefit of the doubt. It is now up to them to prove me wrong. And sure, they may have a full version of SC ready to go that Terlin Whatface played through, but if they never release it, it may as well be a scam.

Difference is that FDEV is fully entitled to plan changes since they do the work on their own dime and risk, and only ask you for your money (with a few exceptions) when they think the product is ready, or almost, for release. CIG is the extreme opposite of that having being funded thanks to pre-selling to us and cashing on those "plans" 10+ years in advance to the tune of 400+ million and placing all the risk squarely on the backers. And still counting. I mean, I guess we could turn this thread into a LEP one or discuss Offline if you so wish but the differences would still be abysmal.

Fully agree here. Seems the discussion is starting to go from showing SC to be a scam and never a delivered product, to folks trying to show that EDH/O, though released, as not released products? What the?

The difference is by degree not in process. From my point of view, both asked for funds in 2012 for future products, neither of which have been fully delivered by 2022.

Plans change eh?

So we bought ED/H/O, which are 3 products, that no matter their state, FDev don't actually have to ever update or improve or add to afterwards, yet they still do, but you put it in the same boat as a group continually promising new stuff, garnering still millions of bucks, while also removing literally everything from the SC roadmap? Wow!

If memory serves, Horizon was asking for money upfront with a large percentage of the content to come in the future. Odyssey was the first occasion that Frontier were going to deliver all the content at point of sale.

Then, as we know, plans changed.

Horizons was released as a seasonal thing, or something, and they completed that. Odyssey is released fully. Surprisingly, to me, they plan to release FC interiors, to appease the rough release of Odyssey, but ultimately, they never have to do that, but they'll get a glimpse of how many actually use those interiors (2%?). What plans have been changed, other than they'll be giving us this extra free content?

Well I still haven't tried it, but I understand some folk think that CIG have delivered to a level as well.

The point I'm trying to clumsily make, is that if it is aceeptable for one developer to be able to change plans because of circumstances, then surely it's acepptable for all developers?

Unless of course 'plans change' is a fob off which in reality explains nothing useful.

That's quite a stretch. Last year, FDev showed videos of Odyssey working really well. Upon release, ala multiplayer across the planet (things aren't always so simple, when that happens it seems), things seemed to break and they have and are making changes to mend that. CIG, though removing things from view on a roadmap, while nothing is working, have not changed their plans much. Their plan, that they stick to, is release pics of ships, make money from that, and thats all. No need to release anything to you for the time being, if ever.

An Arx store and a thousand ship skins were also delivered! Nav beacons were also delivered! So much stuff delivered! Yet no ship interiors! Or any other meaningful space gameplay after Beyond!

As a means of maintaining an income, in a way that doesn't give anyone an upper hand, etc, in the game, that's a great way to do it. I'd say the opposite about CIg's way of selling big ships that'd clearly have an advantage, but since it wont ever be released, that doesn't matter.

Some of these SC content creators just don't get it, this includes SaltEMike who has been advocating for the removal of the release view of the roadmap for some time making the same argument that CIG made when they did basically make it meaningless.

He also thinks the release view is a distraction because it makes people upset, and that's what i find so frustrating about these people, even SaltEMike has absolutely no interest in holding CIG to account for progress

SaltEMike quotes from the video.



And this is the argument he has been making for some time, its the same argument CIG used in that we cannot be trusted to temper our expectations of anything on the roadmap being true.
I find it astonishing that people just don't expect CIG to deliver on anything, more than that it is our fault if we do and get upset when they don't, what? what is going on here????????



Again, what??? Is this guy happy for the game to continue in the same stagnant vain for another decade? And if it does whose fault is that??? what a ######### Moron!

Source: https://youtu.be/JlZL-ipGHBI?t=655

Seems to me maybe you're more like one of us than I realized before. So welcome to the club. But, maybe as you may see, we're not so happy the club has to exist at all. What we want is the game we pledged to to be playable and mean a bit more than just being wiped every few months. Do you think that will ever happen? If so, how soon? (the actual answer may be never).

There comes a point where you have to face up to the fact that CIG are taking their unaccountability for granted, that time comes when for years they have delivered little progress and as a result of that unashamedly remove the only thing people had to hold them to any slight of accountability.
That is what is really going on here and if you can't see that you're a ######## idiot, SaltEMike is a ####### idiot.

Plus, you just start to wonder why, after years of them barking about their fantastic fast, brilliant, content creation tools, they haven't released anything. (the actual answer may be they dont give a crap about you or their backers or promises they've made)

For some CIG can do no wrong. However, this may not stop others realising that giving CIG money for limited results may not, after all, be a particularly good idea.

How could that not be a particularly good idea? The worst thing that happens, when they run out of money, is someone else will pick it up and release it. The best thing would be they just go away. That may sound backwards, but if say Microsoft or whomever bailed him out before, does it again, we'll never hear the end of how great it would have been if only CR had enough money to finish it. F*** O**! Please!

I agree.

I gave CIG $35 in 2012 and nothing since.

I also gave Frontier .... money in 2012 and have suffered from change of plans, or maybe, if I'm being charitable, unrealised plans since.

Video games developers are businesses, but crowd funding had them acting like charities, expecting donations with no strings attached. As stated by AA, a poor model, especially for comsumers.

I gave $39 to CiG and $35 to FDev. But, solely through these threads, FDev is the only one providing me entertainment for both.

I mean, I agree with him in general.

Did you actually believe anything that was on the release view a year out?

CIG said not to trust it and they have proven by their actions that they are incapable of forecasting anything out a year.

If CIG just scaled back the release view to the next patch there probably would not be anywhere near this blowup.

People are mad that CIG said not nice things to them. Even when what CIG said was true. I can't believe CIG said it, but just goes to show how "open" they are. :ROFLMAO:

I didnt have to see that, but going by what you say, I probably agree 100%. Was someone so ignorant, at this point, to believe anything from CIG? Shame on you! Then for them to insult them right to their faces, as to remove any confusion. If you give money to CIG at this point, you deserve nothing! (And will get that)

what? he says "so yes, i do feel CIG have made the right move here"

I agree with him. 🤠

After giving CIG money, after its so clear they wont be delivering, which is so wreckless, for CIg to point out folks are at fault for expecting things is probably the most honest reply. Then those folks who did that may look up to CIG....for their honesty. Wow!

they gutted the roadmap because they always gut the roadmap.

but im sure you were really looking forward to zero g push/pull and won't get it now because tyrer's team is on sq42.

will have to make do with pushing carts around. 🤣

I've been saying that for a while now lol. You give CIG money after they remove some stuff from roadmap, they up it by removing more. (And they make even more money!)

This is my take too. But see: they spank community and it asks for more and money keeps flowing.

The only thing CIG listen to:

View attachment 290488

It's kinda like CIG can do no wrong but it's more apt that the more wrong they do, the more they get rewarded. This, not to completely bore you with an analogy, is the same as....babies. Babies can do no wrong. In fact, when they do a wrong, well from the perspective of if an adult went doo-doo in his undies, that'd be wrong, babies get rewarded for that. Just part of being alive and the experience and they're learning.

And I know I don't even have to type it, but no offence intended towards babies at all! I think they'd be mature enough to know that.

So to the infinite babies of the gaming world, CIG, I say ah-goo! Good job! And as well, no offence, you just are what you are.
 
A number of us are quite convinced SC, as marketed to be, is a scam. They keep touting things, and they haven't delivered on anything they've promised before, so it really seems like a scam. As you said last week, do free-flys and dont pay them.

I notice you didnt refute or deny people are getting paid to post negative things about SC. Pretty much speaks for itself.
 
Nah, as we've seen before, if they can deliver the 3D assets, they do it. Completely absent game mechanics, place holder assets, all of these are present on every bigger sized ship, this never stopped CiG. The transforming 3D model though is a complete roadblock: CE cannot dynamically change map size (it's fixed no matter what), and like I said before having moving / overlapping maps inside the same ship creates other problems on its own. Without that roadblock we would probably have Hull C by now.

Oh sure I’m agreeing with you. Odds on they just release the ships with none of the functionality ;)

Also of note we've not seen a single core engine improvement since about 2014 when they moved to 64 bit coordinate system. The Vulkan API change may impact the core engine somehow, but I suspect the map/coordinate system is apart from that.

Hey, don’t forget Chris’s physics refactor. Allowing for ship-to-station & ship-to-ship docking demonstrations…

2021’s ship-to-station docking still has a minor issue…

Source: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1288778082?t=2h12m12s

I'm sure they'll hammer it out by SQ42 launch...

 
Do you think so ? IIRC the main reason why Hull series are being delayed indefinitely is they cannot implement transforming ships, since it breaks their CryEngine hack "ships are flyable maps" since there would be either an overlap between 2 maps (front and rear of the ship) or a gap when it's extended. In both cases, bad things happen to the engine as it's definitely not meant to handle this.
From what we've seen the ship team delivers consistently and about on time, depending on current priorities of course, but they can deliver when assigned to a ship. Also absent game mechanics did not stop them before indeed as you mention the Starfarer and we could also mention exploration, passenger and salvage ships all of which are currently useless - so no bulk hauling gameplay would definitely not stop them from releasing Hull series.
They are painting themselves in another corner with that cargo rework as loading boxes inside a ship like the Caterpillar or C2 is a thing (maybe, at least one can figure how they'll do it), but loading boxes on a docked ship in space with outside support arms like Hull ships is another thing entirely. Still havent heard a single word from CiG on how they think they are going to achieve that.
As far as I know...it's the Hull C that's being re-polished...Hull A is still on track
 
I'm pretty sure SQ404 was top priority at least for the past 12 months if not longer. Now that they are close to completion, they finally admit it.

Maybe around 2 and a half years ago, Calders found out that CR may have set them up. They did what every investor would do: Talk to the staff. Engineers probably told 'em that the PU is still a decade out if not impossible to pull off.
Calders got salty, demanded a release ASAP as well as a gag order for CR so that they could get their ROI.
Around 2020, CIG tried to appease them with TOW. Didn't work out since it relied on PU server code which is a pile of crap. Calders still insisted on a release. So maybe around a year ago they shifted priority to SQ404 which they knew they could pull off. That's the reason why core mechanics for the PU weren't worked on / pushed back. It's also the reason for all the weird stuff they released instead: pushable carts, bartenders, corpse dragging, coffee, etc etc.: They needed those things because the SQ404 storyline relies on them. And of course, they only fixed those bugs that also appear in SQ404, so that's why some bugs in the PU exist for over a year.
It goes without saying that there's no way to break this to the backers.

They knew the backers would shut their wallet if the PU was openly put on hold, so they acted as if
a) that weird stuff they released was important for the PU
b) the bugs they fixed were the important ones for the PU
b) the stalled development for PU was just slippage/delays because game development
Fanbase swallowed it.

Now that they are close to releasing SQ404, they are more comfortable with the truth and slowly try to come clear. Since they expect SQ404 to rake it in for the next couple of years, they don't give a rat's about the SC/PU community anymore - most of those folks already bought SQ404, PU is tabled anyway, and by the time focus shifts back to PU, the salty backers will all be replaced by a new generation of customers.
Roadmap was thrown out for the same reason - they just don't give a damn anymore and I believe them if they say they are annoyed by the fanbase. I mean, who wouldn't be annoyed if someone kept on ranting about something you stopped working on over a year ago.
The company upscaling / new office thing was simply done because they anticipate huge money from SQ404 and also a lot of work coming their way - after all, they need to run a marketing campaign, release Episodes 2 and 3, maybe even do console releases, merchandise and so on.

I for one don't think they are in trouble. If they release their single-player game within the year, they should no longer have to worry about money, even if it's just a mediocre game. Doing sequels also isn't that hard, just some new assets and storyline, just see how many installments they pulled off with the original Wing Commander engine. If they churn out a sequel/spin-off every 2 years it's enough to keep the lights on indefinitely. In case SQ404 turns out to be a massive hit, I wouldn't be surprised at all if they dropped the ball on SC completely.
As tinfoil hat theories go...that's not a bad one. 10/10 for effort 🥳

It's possibly closer to the truth than most I've read at any rate ;)
 
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Since they expect SQ404 to rake it in for the next couple of years, they don't give a rat's about the SC/PU community anymore

I could totally believe they’re mainly focused on SQ42, but think they still need those PU ship-sale dollars flowing.

That’s the bind they’re in. How to keep ship sales going, while not adding absurd 'this ship has a unicorn railgun' scope creep, and not stomping too blatantly on older ship’s roles. All while hoping no one cares how neglected the PU additions & core tech are comparatively…

Must be difficult. Would make anybody grumpy ;)
 
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I could totally believe they’re mainly focused on SQ42, but think they still need those PU ship-sale dollars flowing.

That’s the bind they’re in. How to keep ship sales going, while not adding absurd 'this ship has a unicorn railgun' scope creep, and not stomping too blatantly on older ship’s roles. All while hoping no one cares how neglected the PU additions & core tech are comparatively…

Must be difficult. Would make anybody grumpy ;)
Two words could sum up how they might achieve part of that, as well as quieten the grumbling whales a bit...Kraken and Merchantman. I have a sneaking suspicion that the BMM will appear by the end of the year with another whale barge following closely on behind it...Odyssey to tie in with Pyro perhaps?

As a small aside, 3.16.1 has just been released to live...

 
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I notice you didnt refute or deny people are getting paid to post negative things about SC. Pretty much speaks for itself.
Sounds like a bit of CIG logic there. Because I didnt, or missed denying or refuting something, then the opposite must be 100% true? So CR says he'll release a game in 2 years, and the opposite is true. He never has.

But really, there is no way I'd know any of that but are you suggesting I could be getting $'s for pointing out it's a scam? Do they pay in NFT's or?
Though I dont know anything about that side of business, heck, I dont really know any side of any business, but I'd say SC's negativity is generated purely through their actions.

But also, it doesn't matter. The worse they bring up, the better they do.

You're enjoying SC, as it is, yes? Do you think it'll be released? If so, when? If not, I wont be shocked.
 
I'm pretty sure SQ404 was top priority at least for the past 12 months if not longer. Now that they are close to completion, they finally admit it.
It wasn't a secret, they've been saying it for years, ever since meaningful progress on the PU more or less stalled. As for the idea that it's "close to completion".... lol I think we can maybe look forward to "S42: Prelude - The Trailer - The Teaser, Part 1 (alpha)" in the next couple of years. It will probably be more cutscene than playable game.
 
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