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Northpin

Northpin
CMDR Is Fat said:
...calling people freeloaders because they choose not to follow your chosen path.
You read these forums, you post plenty, you know full well there are many people who simply dont like different aspects of Odyssey.
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As i said, to each their own. No pressure.
But if i dont like Odyssey, i might as well stay in 3.8, right? Or play something else

This is the interesting part
They dont like Odyssey and they will never buy it - fair enough. Nothing against this, it's perfectly fine. EDO is not everyone's taste. I get it.
But, they still log in Horizons 4.0? because why not? ... erm? Hypocrisy much? and you are put off by the term freeloader? [which i dont find offensive, but simply descriptive - so no intention to be offensive or to offend anyone]

anyway, let's say it's perfectly fine, why not? FDdev offered them this gift

And then the poster i quoted wants to instance with them... and he cannot, because he has Odyssey. And so he's miffed at FDev for not giving him Horizons 4.0, not at his friends who dont want to instance with him in 3.8 nor want to buy Odyssey and instance with him in Odyssey.
Because you see, it is not the Horizons people that are miffed, it's the Odyssey people that are the ones really miffed because they cannot get Horizons4.0

Now i'm not saying i like this situation.
Just that i'm tryin to understand FDev reasoning and to accept that reasoning 🤷‍♂️
(even tho i would have preferred to have Horizons 4.0 - just to see it in the launcher, even if i will never use it - simply because i like to have options)

Some FDev quotes below
#151
Glad to hear your friends are taking advantage of 4.0 on Horizons! Just as before, if Odyssey and non-Odyssey players wish to play together, you'll have to do so in 3.8.
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#168
This release is a courtesy and free upgrade for non-Odyssey owners. They now get to try the 4.0 codebase with all the perks that contains as well as engage with future content and narrative updates at no additional cost where this wasn't possible before. Of course, we still hope they will upgrade to Odyssey for the full experience the game has to offer.
Click to expand...

And Horizons players go Yee \o/
while Odyssey players raise their fists and go Boo /o\

anyway, i have this feeling that next week Odyssey players will get Horizons 4.0 too and everyone will be happy, but nor for long since new 4.0 players will start to notice EDO being much more demanding and gfx/cpu intensive, darker, with a different taste in lighting, illumination, gamma, color palette... and we will get to be entertained by a different type of frustration 😂
 

Slaani Ludlow

Slaani Ludlow
They should rather work on getting everything together in only 1 version of the game.. instead of having this mess with Odyssey, Horizon 3.8 and Horizon 4.0.
Why Consoles was abandoned then, or there was not make a attempt for last gen consoles at least, when we still have this 3 different version mess of the game ?
 

CMDR Is Fat

CMDR Is Fat
Northpin said:
As i said, to each their own. No pressure.
But if i dont like Odyssey, i might as well stay in 3.8, right? Or play something else

This is the interesting part
They dont like Odyssey and they will never buy it - fair enough. Nothing against this, it's perfectly fine. EDO is not everyone's taste. I get it.
But, they still log in Horizons 4.0? because why not? ... erm? Hypocrisy much? and you are put off by the term freeloader? [which i dont find offensive, but simply descriptive - so no intention to be offensive or to offend anyone]

anyway, let's say it's perfectly fine, why not? FDdev offered them this gift

And then the poster i quoted wants to instance with them... and he cannot, because he has Odyssey. And so he's miffed at FDev for not giving him Horizons 4.0, not at his friends who dont want to instance with him in 3.8 nor want to buy Odyssey and instance with him in Odyssey.
Because you see, it is not the Horizons people that are miffed, it's the Odyssey people that are the ones really miffed because they cannot get Horizons4.0

Now i'm not saying i like this situation.
Just that i'm tryin to understand FDev reasoning and to accept that reasoning 🤷‍♂️
(even tho i would have preferred to have Horizons 4.0 - just to see it in the launcher, even if i will never use it - simply because i like to have options)

Some FDev quotes below
#151


#168


And Horizons players go Yee \o/
while Odyssey players raise their fists and go Boo /o\

anyway, i have this feeling that next week Odyssey players will get Horizons 4.0 too and everyone will be happy, but nor for long since new 4.0 players will start to notice EDO being much more demanding and gfx/cpu intensive, darker, with a different taste in lighting, illumination, gamma, color palette... and we will get to be entertained by a different type of frustration 😂
Click to expand...
You win!
 

Fizzatron

Fizzatron
I'm only up to page 9 so I'm not sure if this is now out of date if a decision has been reversed etc..

Anyway, I see both sides to this.

I think that not giving Odyssey players the option to launch Horizons 4.0 is a strategic move on Frontier's part to encourage those who try out Horizons 4.0 and like it to push the button and upgrade to Odyssey - which I think is fair enough, of course Frontier want people to buy Odyssey, it is sales from this expansion that dictates the future of Elite as a whole, as it has been from the start. I don't think that is unreasonable, and I also don't think it's unreasonable for those who want to see Elite to continue to develop to not let $40, or $22 on sale right now, be a huge barrier in unlocking and enjoying what is the next step into future of Elite.

However, I also see the point in regards to Odyssey players who may want to instance together to enjoy Horizons 4.0 if the happenstance occurs for it. I personally don't see a situation where that will be necessary for me, and I wonder how many we are realistically speaking of here? I would imagine the metrics are something Frontier are aware of and will be keeping a keen eye on.

The main takeaway that I see though is that it is evident that no-one seems to want to go back to 3.8 to instance. So for those few who are effectively trying to hold the future of Elite to ransom via it should realize that the writing is on the wall. Odyssey 4.0 is the future and we would all do well to embrace it. It's not a point to overlook that anyone who wants to see a unified playerbase has to promote the upgrade to Odyssey, as it is the one option of the game that actually delivers on the promise to unite all of the playerbase together - if that is what one actually wants, and has the added benefit of providing the continual funding required for the next expansion. Anyone who claims that they want to to see player unity but is trying to pitch being a holdout as the answer is, well, selling the opposite of what they're claiming to stand for.

The quicker we all move to Odyssey, the quicker we can all just get on with playing the game together.
 

Fizzatron

Fizzatron
Slaani Ludlow said:
They should rather work on getting everything together in only 1 version of the game.. instead of having this mess with Odyssey, Horizon 3.8 and Horizon 4.0.
Why Consoles was abandoned then, or there was not make a attempt for last gen consoles at least, when we still have this 3 different version mess of the game ?
Click to expand...
They are working on it, what would you do differently to make it happen? And just giving Odyssey to everyone for free is not an acceptable answer for reasons that should not need an explanation.

It's on the playerbase to move forwards, and the option that gets everyone on one version of the game is for everyone to upgrade to Odyssey. It really is that simple.
 

Old Duck

Old Duck
nemolomen said:
Odyssey is the way forward...players who won't or can't play Odyssey will be left behind...there really isn't any more to discuss here...
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Bon Voyage!

iu
 

Mrc_NorthEast

Mrc_NorthEast
I think calling it EDH 4.0 was a mistake. I think calling it EDO 4.0 Lite would have been better. By calling it EDH, it is a Horizons version and alot of people bought Horizons, years ago. Odyssey players had to have bought Horizons (one way or the other) and Odyssey.

Now those same people that actually spent their money to buy both EDH and EDO do not get a version of EDH, specifically 4.0. I see it as a slap in the face to those customers that did support Fdev with their time and money on a very rough product as it was originally released. And this is the thanks from Fdev that they get. So do I as someone who only bought EDH want to give Fdev more of my money, seems like you get more options to play ED if you don't give Fdev more of your money. I will guess that is not the type of thinking Fdev wants.

And yes there is at least one poster in these forums who says EDH 4.0 is not for sale to anyone. True, but anyone who buys a 7.49 usd copy of Elite Dangerous today from steam (or frontier) has the option to download and then play EDH 4.0 today. But someone who bought both EDH and EDO previously or today cannot. Way to treat your customers who supported you Fdev. I find it crazy they didn't see this coming. I find it even more crazy that Fdev thinks they will sell more copies of EDO by limiting previous EDO purchasers as well on who they can play with.

Since I did not buy EDO I am not mad, just surprised. I got a new game engine with EDH 4.0, with new menus and new lighting. Someone who gave Fdev more money than I did, doesn't get that same version. I really do wonder why. (see below for my quick thoughts on EDH 4.0)

I also cannot wrap my head around how limiting customers who did support Fdev ultimately helps Fdev going forward.

I also don't understand why there isn't an on foot demo in the EDH 4.0 install pkg. I am thinking of specifically the on foot training mission. Just like for EDH the training mission is something people play once or twice and then want to move on from. But it gives you an idea of the gameplay and the game engine. So the 'demo' is not really a demo at all, cause I cannot demo the pew pew on foot in EDH 4.0. Whatever I am not a fps player anyway, but it would have been nice to include that. And I bet it would have sold some people on buying Odyssey, but since it is not there, it won't.

My thoughts on EDH 4.0 real quick as this is already a big post:
  1. New gal map and sys map: I do not really like them overall, but I do like the search top middle, and the click and hold to plot a course to
  2. Outfitting: seems overly clicky, but the organization is better
  3. Skybox: nope do not like, too dark when it should not be. Colors are way off
  4. Planet rendering: Only have visited Jamesons crash site (as I am out of a couple G5 mats) so while there I swapped back and forth between 3.8 and 4.0 EDH. I like 3.8 better, colors are better, terrain is better, skybox is better. Even though I can tell the textures are more detailed in 4.0, the overall look and feel of both the ground assets and skybox is worse in 4.0 to me
  5. Overall: I want to keep trying it out now and then but mixed reviews from me so far
Does anything about EDH 4.0 want to make me buy EDO right now. No, still too many bugs in EDO and in EDH, cmon Fdev fix all the bugs please. And even on sale for 21.99 usd on Steam, I do not see the value in legs pew pew or legs walking around on planets for pics or scanning very few plants being worth 21.99 usd.

However I do believe Fdev is trying to fix things, in their own way, which is very very odd and very very slow. But if we do not support them, how long will EDH 3.8/4.0 or EDO be around... I do not know but probably not at long as if we support them somehow. So I am thinking of an Arx purchase instead. Your mileage may vary.

o7 everyone, cya in space.
 

Old Duck

Old Duck
Mrc_NorthEast said:
Does anything about EDH 4.0 want to make me buy EDO right now. No, still too many bugs in EDO and in EDH, cmon Fdev fix all the bugs please. And even on sale for 21.99 usd on Steam, I do not see the value in legs pew pew or legs walking around on planets for pics or scanning very few plants being worth 21.99 usd.
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The only thing that entices me to download and install EDH 4.0 is this Thargoid mystery, but is that enough? Probably not, especially since I don't have time to chase these sprites across the galaxy right now. That's one problem with stories that unfold in real time - if you miss it, you miss it (unlike scripted stories in single-player games or traditional MMOs). Had EDH 4 dropped in January, then I may have been more tempted.

When Frontier pulls the plug on 3.8, that's probably when I pull the plug on Elite. I've already given them plenty of money for that version of Horizons (multiple copies and Arx), and I've gotten my money's worth, so no complaints. I'm glad to still be able to play it on occasion, because it remains the best VR game in my library, but I actually agree with people saying that Odyssey is the future. It is the future of Elite, for better or worse. It's just not my future (unless it radically improves), and I've come to terms with that.
 

The Old Coder

T
Mrc_NorthEast said:
However I do believe Fdev is trying to fix things, in their own way, which is very very odd and very very slow. But if we do not support them, how long will EDH 3.8/4.0 or EDO be around... I do not know but probably not at long as if we support them somehow. So I am thinking of an Arx purchase instead. Your mileage may vary.
Click to expand...

FDEV's pace of fixing things isn't really odd at all. They've simply hit the wall on what can be fixed without a complete rewrite which would require a massive (and economically unjustified) commitment of developer resources that are needed elsewhere. I've been there myself more than once. There's only so much that can be done with a bad codebase. Don't expect any fixes for performance, lighting or any of the other myriad problems because they will not be coming.

Buy Arks if you like but don't think you're funding the future of the game. The way things are now it has none.
 

Fizzatron

Fizzatron
Old Duck said:
I agree with the factual nature of this statement, but not its execution. You can't have Odyssey without Horizons, because Odyssey is a DLC, and usually DLCs are not mandatory. It's like saying High Isle is the future of ESO, or Tides of Avarice is the future of X4 - it just doesn't make sense. Now if you say that X4 is the future of the X franchise, then that makes sense, but I'm not required to buy X3 in order to play X4.
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It doesn't make sense, according to your words. This is not because it can't make sense but you choose to frame it in a way that supports your assertion rather than what is actually the truth. You use the word 'usually' when describing what a DLC is, not what expansions are in Elite. Frontier have stated from the very beginning that there is a base game and more content and features will be added by means of paid expansions. We can choose to call them DLC, but they are not side maps or bonus levels, or what people 'usually' associate DLCs to be. I believe you are aware of this which makes your choice to frame it thusly a deliberate attempt to mischaracterize what these expansions to Elite actually are.

Old Duck said:
In other words, if Odyssey is truly the future and Horizons the past, then Odyssey should be sold as a stand-alone product rather than a DLC. After all, Odyssey is a stand-alone product (you can delete Horizons after installing Odyssey), so marketing it as a DLC and making "obsolete" Horizons an mandatory purchase in order to play Odyssey feels shady to me. Not that it affects me personally as an old player who owns Horizons, but it's a bit of a scam for new players forced to buy a "dead" game (Horizons) in order to play the current game (Odyssey).
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No, what you wrote is absolutely incorrect as I outlined above, and I strongly disagree with your suggestion that 'it's a bit of a scam' - what Frontier have done with Odyssey, they have already done with Horizons, which you evidently have no issue with to the seeming point of considering it to be the pinnacle of Elite Dangerous development and needing no further improvement. Look Old Duck, you choose to hold on to Horizons 3.8, you are free to do you, and best of luck to you, but don't try to twist Frontier's use of expansions into a semantical argument to hinge your grievance against Frontier, for whichever reason it exists. My guess is that it's because you fear that 3.8 isn't going to be the point of exodus that you hope it will be, if so, a very justifiable fear and a fear I hope is realized to the fullest extent it can.

It's funny, Frontier could have justified keeping Horizons as a DLC option to the base game, even after Odyssey was launched, but instead chose to upgrade all owners of the base game to Horizons for free. Frontier could have justified abandoning the console versions and told everyone to buy a new PC copy if they wanted to continue playing, but they chose to implement a copy system that gifted a free copy of the Horizons base-game - including 4.0 code base to every console owner who chooses to accept the offer, along with a duplicate of all assets and progress. These are not actions of scammers and I think it's a very undeserved insult to suggest that Frontier are engaging in one, frankly.

Like I said before, don't let Horizons be the hill your commander dies on. o7
 

Fizzatron

Fizzatron
CMDR KCalo said:
So let's say Odyssey is a Lamborghini and you want to go for a ride with your mate, but the door only unlocks if they also have a Lamborghini. So you call Lamborghini and say "wth!? I want to go for a ride with my mate, open the door!" And their response is, "Sorry, we can't let your mates who don't own a Lamborghini ride in one. If you guys want to ride together you'll need to take the Corolla". For those who don't have friends in this game, you're right it's Lamborghini all the way.
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Putting that asinine comparison aside for a moment. The logical aspect of this is 1) 3.8 Horizons folks aren't going to want to instance with Odyssey friends in 4.0. 2) 4.0 Horizons folks who want to instance with their Odyssey friends may as well get Odyssey and fully instance with all features that come with Odyssey.
 

Old Duck

Old Duck
Fizzatron said:
It doesn't make sense, according to your words. This is not because it can't make sense but you choose to frame it in a way that supports your assertion rather than what is actually the truth. You use the word 'usually' when describing what a DLC is, not what expansions are in Elite. Frontier have stated from the very beginning that there is a base game and more content and features will be added by means of paid expansions. We can choose to call them DLC, but they are not side maps or bonus levels, or what people 'usually' associate DLCs to be.
Click to expand...
DLC.png

Fizzatron said:
I believe you are aware of this which makes your choice to frame it thusly a deliberate attempt to mischaracterize what these expansions to Elite actually are.

No, what you wrote is absolutely incorrect as I outlined above, and I strongly disagree with your suggestion that 'it's a bit of a scam' -
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What I am aware of is irrelevant (you'll note in my post that I said this doesn't bother me, because I already own Horizons). It's what new players think, again, as I clearly stated in my post. I continue below:

Fizzatron said:
what Frontier have done with Odyssey, they have already done with Horizons, which you evidently have no issue with to the seeming point of considering it to be the pinnacle of Elite Dangerous development and needing no further improvement. Look Old Duck, you choose to hold on to Horizons 3.8, you are free to do you, and best of luck to you, but don't try to twist Frontier's use of expansions into a semantical argument to hinge your grievance against Frontier, for whichever reason it exists. My guess is that it's because you fear that 3.8 isn't going to be the point of exodus that you hope it will be, if so, a very justifiable fear and a fear I hope is realized to the fullest extent it can.
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You do love your conspiracy theories, don't you? I'm surprised you haven't blamed me for single-handedly review bombing Odyssey. The irony is that the "scam" (which semantically is probably the wrong word based on your very emotional reaction) is that new players have to buy Horizons 3.8, which you seem to now hate, in order to play Odyssey. I'm suggesting that Odyssey should be sold as a stand-alone game without the requirement to first buy Horizons. Heck, I'm trying to spare new players from the evil that is the 3.8 code that you so loath (if they want to play Odyssey, that is). You should be thanking me!

Fizzatron said:
It's funny, Frontier could have justified keeping Horizons as a DLC option to the base game, even after Odyssey was launched, but instead chose to upgrade all owners of the base game to Horizons for free. Frontier could have justified abandoning the console versions and told everyone to buy a new PC copy if they wanted to continue playing, but they chose to implement a copy system that gifted a free copy of the Horizons base-game - including 4.0 code base to every console owner who chooses to accept the offer, along with a duplicate of all assets and progress. These are not actions of scammers and I think it's a very undeserved insult to suggest that Frontier are engaging in one, frankly.
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Yes yes, okay, I'll tap the mat on this one. I reread my post and my wording is poor. I feel like I meant to say that "It kinda feels like a scam" or something to that effect. Not that you'll be any more okay with this wording, either, so I'll recant my use of the word "scam". I do stick behind the premise that Frontier is forcing new players to buy an old game (Horizons 3.8) in order to play a new game (Odyssey), these quite literally being two separate games on the hard drive. As I said, it's like Egosoft forcing people to buy X3 in order to play X4. Why not just sell Odyssey as a stand-alone product? It would have avoided a lot of the confusion that is the essence of this thread. Odyssey technically does not require the base game to play, despite the "less than 100% honest" claim on Steam. It may require the base game to purchase, but not play. This means Odyssey is not truly DLC, despite calling itself that on Steam, and your expansion argument is irrelevant to the average new player looking to buy and play Odyssey.
 
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