It's always been bad
1.2 vs 2.2 FDL: A comparison
- Thread starter Alexander the Grape
- Start date
It's always been bad
Sure, the way that post was worded makes it sound like it got worse though.
I don't care about the firepower, or the maneuverability. I fly the FdL because when I do I feel like this guy:
I think it's a bit of an overstatement to say that they "suck." However they are severely gimped by some questionable - at best - design decisions on FD's part.
Every single one of them is too heavy for the optimal mass of the shields they can mount. An FAS is 75 tonnes heavier than the optimal mass of a Class 5 shield. That's just dumb. All the have gimped lateral thrusters, I had forgotten how weak my FAS's thrusters were till I hopped in an FDL to remind myself why prefer the FAS to the FDL. They all have their utility mounts on the bottom, rendering them useless as PDs.
That said, all three of them have very forgiving flight models, meaning they have much less boost-turn dropoff than most ships, and they have much better top speed and 0 speed pitch rates than most ships. FA-On boost-turns rock with the FAS. They tend to yaw quite a bit better than most ships. The hardpoint placement is good (even the top one on the FAS isn't too bad) and they have plenty of power to spare. And the pitch rate on the FAS is great.
However, the current meta of Missiles nuking your drives in 10 seconds after your shields are down means relying on your hull is suicide. The weak shields weren't even an issue in PVE in 1.5 (or whatever) and 2.0 because NPCs didn't target modules. Buuuut now they do. Boom, down goes your Plant or FSD or drives.
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NPCs do not subtarget modules. They just happen to hit whatever modules are on the side where they make contact. Eg, if you present your rear, they will hit your engines. If you present your front, they will damage your weapons.
Also, heat seeking missiles can only damage external modules. They cannot damage your PP, FSD, or any internal modules. Only torpedoes can do that, and perhaps dumbfires if they have the right modded special effect.
Regarding the Fed ships, I think your arguments show even more why and how the Fed ships are gimped. Yes, there are a few redeeming qualities, but their core stats and design are so off-putting that it would take a true Fed fan to see any beauty in them. The excessively low speed and jump range of the Corvette... oh my god. Don't get me started. Whatever they may say, actions speak louder than PR statements, and Frontier really hates the Feds.
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It has got more powerful, yes. It's in a good place now; before it wasn't worth the price asked for it, luxury ship or not. The Python was a far better choice.
The influence of Engineer mods is hard to judge, because they're an unbalanced nightmare of broken modifiers and effects.
Its prevalence in PvP is because it's the premium fighter-craft currently in game - despite calls for more variety in PvP, competitive players will still gravitate towards the best choice for combat. Before the FdL the Python and a shedload of SCB's was flavour of the month. The wheel spins ever onwards.
I don't think the FdL is too strong - rather, that too many ships in Elite are too weak. Most have weaknesses and compromises hard-baked into them, but ships like the Python, the Anaconda and the Cobra III give the lie to the need for them. If you want versatility, you need reasons to get players into underperforming ships. It worked for the FdL - why not other hulls?
The influence of Engineer mods is hard to judge, because they're an unbalanced nightmare of broken modifiers and effects.
Its prevalence in PvP is because it's the premium fighter-craft currently in game - despite calls for more variety in PvP, competitive players will still gravitate towards the best choice for combat. Before the FdL the Python and a shedload of SCB's was flavour of the month. The wheel spins ever onwards.
I don't think the FdL is too strong - rather, that too many ships in Elite are too weak. Most have weaknesses and compromises hard-baked into them, but ships like the Python, the Anaconda and the Cobra III give the lie to the need for them. If you want versatility, you need reasons to get players into underperforming ships. It worked for the FdL - why not other hulls?
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I also think the FDL is the ugliest ship in Elite... that alone kept me away from it! Bought her twice, couldn't stand the looks always sold her soon after!
Bear in mind though that Kyokushin has been practising by speed ramming traders coming out of mail slots. That's got to count for something!
THAT IS UGLY! and Does not look like a space ship! If anything it looks like this: https://daily3d.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/day08_paperplane.jpg
just horribly horribly ugly!
I knew you'd turn up eventually, Dread. You have a nice ship, I'll grant that, but you need to have your eyes examined if you think the FdL is ugly
OK, just returned to this after a few hours, read up, and I'm going to call out Mr Grape personally on why the last few pages of his thread have gone south fast ...
Dude, you didn't head the thread title 'PvP' ... e.g. ... "1.2 PvP FdL v 2.2. PvP FdL"
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Dude can speak for himself but so far as I am concerned Oddisee is the new name and Deathgrips is the old name. I will always think of him as Deathgrips, right back to Harma, June 2015.
Nice vid and a nice win! As you say, FAS v Python, no contest, Python dominates, assuming both know what doing.
But I can't help but think that you really wanted 3 x Pacifiers in that fight, Hannibal ...
Dude, you didn't head the thread title 'PvP' ... e.g. ... "1.2 PvP FdL v 2.2. PvP FdL"
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Dude can speak for himself but so far as I am concerned Oddisee is the new name and Deathgrips is the old name. I will always think of him as Deathgrips, right back to Harma, June 2015.
Nice vid and a nice win! As you say, FAS v Python, no contest, Python dominates, assuming both know what doing.
But I can't help but think that you really wanted 3 x Pacifiers in that fight, Hannibal ...
Ok... I'll bite. I like the FDL. I bought one recently and I am now asking myself why I was bothering bounty hunting in a Python. Not that the Python is bad at combat or anything, because it can hold its own. Its just that the FDL seems much more effective. The agility of the FDL also makes bringing fixed weapons into my loadouts a viable option. the two nose hardpoints on my FDL are currently equipped with class 2 railguns. The only time I miss is when I get greedy. The other hardpoints have pulse lasers in the correct sizes, all on gimbal mounts.
Oh, I do like how the FDL looks. Looks great with the tactical cobalt, graphite or the black friday paintjobs IMO.
However, I don't fly the FDL to look good, I fly it to kill things. From a pure combat perspective, there are a lot of things that an FDL can do that most Python users simply can't. I recognize that engineer mods can help the Python out a lot, but I don't think I need to go into why that is such a headache for a lot of players (myself included). Other threads already have that covered.
Oh, I do like how the FDL looks. Looks great with the tactical cobalt, graphite or the black friday paintjobs IMO.
However, I don't fly the FDL to look good, I fly it to kill things. From a pure combat perspective, there are a lot of things that an FDL can do that most Python users simply can't. I recognize that engineer mods can help the Python out a lot, but I don't think I need to go into why that is such a headache for a lot of players (myself included). Other threads already have that covered.
Almost perfectly stated. I would take it a step farther though, and say that more ships should be expanded to allow for generalist gameplay.
- Allow for up to 2 Utility Mount slots to be added at extra cost (on ships with less than 4 Util Mounts, up to a maximum of 4 total)
- Remove the range nerfs on combat ships (the base jump range of "combat" ships needs to be 30% higher)
- Remove the agility nerfs on certain small ships (both vipers, DBE, Keelback). Small ships should never have to sacrifice agility for anything. There is no call for ships weighing 4 times as much being MORE agile than a small ship. That is just abusive and in defiance of all logic and fairness.
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Kyokushin has started to dig his own grave with this challenge most definitely. There are certain pvp-pilots you dont wanna mess around with for sure lol. I consider myself a very well-trained pvp python pilot and guys like oddisee, pipko, hercules, majinvash, old sauver, breakfastmelon, truesilver, poaarctica, alexander the grape (didnt have the opportunity to fight him yet
however past pvp videos underline his outstanding pvp skill) to mention a few of them, are fearsome opponents any day even if you have a technical advantage over them. It was very hard to fight them in a python when it still served a role in pvp during and prior to 2.0 but since the python is kind of garbage against today's "FdL supremacy" you are very likely to get humiliated or something. good damn luck mate. lol
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alright finally got it then I must have messed up something with the names, so it was the other way around
it's been a while, thx for the clarification. [up] Yea I wasn't pledged to the corresponding power in order to access the pacificers sadly, they might have helped alot more^^.More and more I am thinking that the problem could be solved by creating an alternative model and cockpit, so that the ship looks completely different, but has identical stats. I think people just get bored flying the same ship. Lol.
But the calls to nerf the FDL so that jack-of-all-trades ships can also dominate PVP as well as every other aspect of the game? That nonsense has to stop right now. If a multi-role ship can fight as well as a Combat ship (with multiple crushing nerfs to all other aspects of the game!), then why would anyone fly a "combat" ship ever again?
This is yet another reason why balancing ships around 1v1 PVP-death-match-combat is a terrible idea.
But the calls to nerf the FDL so that jack-of-all-trades ships can also dominate PVP as well as every other aspect of the game? That nonsense has to stop right now. If a multi-role ship can fight as well as a Combat ship (with multiple crushing nerfs to all other aspects of the game!), then why would anyone fly a "combat" ship ever again?
This is yet another reason why balancing ships around 1v1 PVP-death-match-combat is a terrible idea.
My bad
maybe my subconscious wanted to avoid the inevitable PvE/PvP/Open/Solo debate that always follows any mention of PvPIndeed, though I would say the ability for a non combat ship to evade combat (wake out high low and sideways) needs to be brought back to pre-engineering levels. With a reasonable build a ship that is competently operated should have a reasonable chance of escape.
If all the ships are equally engineered, I would say that escape tools have only increased since 2.1/2.2. I fly non-combat ships at least 50% of the time in Open (these are ships with NO guns equipped) and my PVP mortality rate is pretty darn low. Most encounters I don't even lose shields, or get hit more than once or twice. As of 2.1 my non-combat fleet has expanded to 12 ships, when it used to just be the Cobra. Even flying an Exploration/Trade Asp used to be a life/death decision. Not anymore. I can confidently fly many ships that were previously off limits in Open.
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