Add a High Value Commodity Only Tradable In Open

[lemon407]

Would not work, because you create an item that only exists in open, you create a bigger target for people to go after, as a results either no on will buy that item to avoid the risk of getting hunted down, or people will still stay in solo.

The solo vs open world debate is the same problem that warcraft has with warmode (Optional pvp) the vast majority of players will opt out of it because at the end of the day, the vast majority of people want to play out their own game, and not have that experience ruined or interrupted.

If you want a solution to get more people to play in open, you need to create an environment where its far more relatively safe in common areas. The only way i can see this being possible is to take the zones that are in the bubble, as set a system enforcement response time based upon the zone security.
Response time to player vs player engagements where the the initiating party if targeting a clean player
High sec: 20 seconds with high response force min 1 anaconda with 2 medium ships
Med sec: 45 seconds
Low sec: 1 min
Anarchy: 2 min

Right now people dont want to play open because people dont wanna get ganked, it sucks, it really does only way to prevent that is to have the bubble be as safe as it can be for people just trying to get by doing their own thing.

 

[Misskar]

If you want a solution to get more people to play in open, you need to create an environment where its far more relatively safe in common areas. The only way i can see this being possible is to take the zones that are in the bubble, as set a system enforcement response time based upon the zone security.
Response time to player vs player engagements where the the initiating party if targeting a clean player
High sec: 20 seconds with high response force min 1 anaconda with 2 medium ships
Med sec: 45 seconds
Low sec: 1 min
Anarchy: 2 min

That's how it should be. The center of the main powers should have high security level and quick response. But due to the large number of population the profits should be low as well.

Profit should be associated with danger.

I just started this game (about 100 hours) and I am huge fan of open world pvp. (I already got one encounter with one polite pirate commander asking me for some cargo). I am a fan in both sides of the fight, being the ganker or the gankee. I love the sensation of having valuable cargo and getting away with it. I am providing content for the ganker and for myself.

But I am also an extremely competetive player and I know that the best thing to do to gain money is mine LTD in Borann and go sell them in Solo.

So I am getting 100-200 millions/hour (I just started the game) and I can get pretty much anything if I grind for bit. I still have to do Engineers but I guess that'll be easy with an expensive ship who I don't deserve to get yet. In other games my goals will be now turning to any form of pvp (better if it's profitable) and I'd love if it have some meaning as well. I don't want to gain money only, I want to gain something else. That could be rank, reputation or whatever, but I want to feel pride of getting better at fighting and I want to show it off in some way.

Here I am lost, I already feel the burden of not having a real goal (I play a lot of sandboxs games, I have experience with that feeling). Money is easy as **** to get and I don't see galaxy full of players. I see a lot of players alone doing their bussiness. I don't see the galaxy shaping with the actions of players. I want to care about this galaxy but I can't find a reason. (I just started with a BGS group asociated with a minor faction but I can't see a reason to care about it, no profit, no reputation... just seamless system growth).

My point, there are 2 ways a game get content. Theme Park and Sandbox. The first one in this game is upgrading your ship, getting engineers and all Thargoid stuff. Powerplay and BGS are meant to enhance the Sandbox experience, as I see it. But in Sandbox games, the content comes from player interaction and those are PVP and player control over the narrative of the game. I don't think we have either.

What linking profit with danger does is that now the game become a "battle" between pvers and pvpers. Yeah, it sucks to get ganked, but you could always trade or do missions in systems with high security. But if you want to get the moneys, you gotta go to the dark area of the galaxy, were the damn gankers roam.

Máx. profit in High Security areas should be around 50million/hour, only in Anarchy you should be able to get 200million/hour.

 

[Hopix]

There needs to be some incentive for people to risk open play, whatever it is.

 

[Robert Maynard]

My point, there are 2 ways a game get content. Theme Park and Sandbox. The first one in this game is upgrading your ship, getting engineers and all Thargoid stuff. Powerplay and BGS are meant to enhance the Sandbox experience, as I see it. But in Sandbox games, the content comes from player interaction and those are PVP and player control over the narrative of the game. I don't think we have either.

Indeed - players don't control Factions or Powers and player interaction is an optional extra - in this game

What linking profit with danger does is that now the game become a "battle" between pvers and pvpers. Yeah, it sucks to get ganked, but you could always trade or do missions in systems with high security. But if you want to get the moneys, you gotta go to the dark area of the galaxy, were the damn gankers roam.

Máx. profit in High Security areas should be around 50million/hour, only in Anarchy you should be able to get 200million/hour.

What constitutes "danger" for the players in combat optimised and engineered ships?

Being available to be ganked is optional in this game.

 

[Linnunrata]

Máx. profit in High Security areas should be around 50million/hour, only in Anarchy you should be able to get 200million/hour.

There's not enough gankers ( ) to make the bubble anarchy systems actually dangerous that way. Not to mention that it would be realismwise super goofy - apart from rare exceptions, business and profit don't thrive from insecurity (hence the tendency of states to assert monopoly of violence).

 

[Misskar]

Do you mean the "danger" for the gankers or for players doing missions in danger sectors?

Either way, if you are "combat optimised and engineered" meaning that you have the best posible combat ship. That's when you reach endgame, to get that money you'd have to grind in High Sec or go to where the money is with a less powerful ship.

In that moment, the "danger" must be other "combat optimised and engineered" players. Do you want to get more than 200 million/hour? I'd introduce player owned structures and fight for the control of them. You can only anchor them far from the bubble, no security. Let players make their own bubbles and fight for the resources.

I'd introduce some new meterials only found in specific parts of the galaxy so players fight for the control of the resources.

Edit to answer Linnunrata:

I used Anarchy because is the in-game therm, but I am not talking about system goverment status or whatever it is in game. I was talking about a new security system linked with police respond in the system as lemon407 commented. Most systems in the bubble would have High Sec in my opinion. Federal and Empire territory and all that.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Do you mean the "danger" for the gankers or for players doing missions in danger sectors?

The gankers.

Either way, if you are "combat optimised and engineered" meaning that you have the best posible combat ship. That's when you reach endgame, to get that money you'd have to grind in High Sec or go to where the money is with a less powerful ship.

Endgame for some - only one in-game path to Elite requires the player to fire a shot in combat.

In that moment, the "danger" must be other "combat optimised and engineered" players. Do you want to get more than 200 million/hour? I'd introduce player owned structures and fight for the control of them. You can only anchor them far from the bubble, no security. Let players make their own bubbles and fight for the resources.

I'd introduce some new meterials only found in specific parts of the galaxy so players fight for the control of the resources.

Whether danger "must" come from other players, or not, remains a matter of opinion. Players can't enforce an effective blockade of any system in this game. Any (currently accessible) system in the galaxy can be traveled to in any of the three game modes on any of the three game platforms....

 

[Linnunrata]

I used Anarchy because is the in-game therm, but I am not talking about system goverment status or whatever it is in game. I was talking about a new security system linked with police respond in the system as @lemon407 commented. Most systems in the bubble would have High Sec in my opinion. Federal and Empire territory and all that.

But as the bubble is huge, there would be hundreds of these high profit low sec systems I surmise. Which basically leads back to how it is now - you need to specifically go to the few hotspot systems to get ganked, and if you could make 200 mil a hour in any low sec frontier system the "danger" even in forced open would be neglible.

 

[Misskar]

Linnunrata, now I can make pretty much 150 mill/hour easy with a Python and the only hot spot (if any) is the top selling system of LTD in eddb (or equivalent). If I'm okay with 1,2million per ton instead of 1,6m I don't need to go to any "hot spot".

Endgame for some - only one in-game path to Elite requires the player to fire a shot in combat.

What other endgame can you have in this game at this moment other than get the bigger ship with the better modules?

What I'm trying to say is this game is in a dare need of content. What is easy content? Make PvP rewarding for both ends. Imposible in some systems so people who don't want to fight can live in peace. Make it so the more dangerous areas (where pvp is allowed) is way more profitable for PVE in any form. There, you have conflict, conflict is content.

Introduce Bounty Hunting so "white hat" players can go after gankers.

Then to have some meaning on PVP other than ganking. Introduce player own space with resources linked to parts of the galaxy. There, you got Player created wars, politics and content.

That's the endgame. Create a player filled galaxy together.

Not a shiny ship.

 

[Linnunrata]

Linnunrata, now I can make pretty much 150 mill/hour easy with a Python and the only hot spot (if any) is the top selling system of LTD in eddb (or equivalent). If I'm okay with 1,2million per ton instead of 1,6m I don't need to go to any "hot spot".

Sure, but how is that related to what we are discussing? If you had - say - a hundred low sec systems in the bubble where you could churn out 200mcr/h because they are dangerous, why would they be dangerous? It would simply create a bubble where everyone hung around the periphery where the profits are.

 

[Misskar]

It would be dangerous because PVP is allowed.

Open/Solo is just a lazy way of solving a problem, present in all mmos. I'm talking of another way of dealing with that problem.

The difference between the current model and what I am talking about is that there is some kind of endgame available for pvpers.

Now, the only "endgame" I can think of is try to have everything. If you force player interaction the content will come for itself.

Edit: Answering your question, if now with 100 hours I am able to farm 150 m/h.... how long a competitive player will take him to get everything? Not much. If I had to go to dangerous areas, I probably won't be able to get away without understanding the game and the combat.

 

[Robert Maynard]

What other endgame can you have in this game at this moment other than get the bigger ship with the better modules?

Some set themselves goals, e.g. supporting Faction(s) in the BGS or reaching a distant point in the galaxy.

Shortly players will be able to purchase a Fleet Carrier for 5B Cr.

What I'm trying to say is this game is in a dare need of content. What is easy content? Make PvP rewarding for both ends. Imposible in some systems so people who don't want to fight can live in peace. Make it so the more dangerous areas (where pvp is allowed) is way more profitable for PVE in any form. There, you have conflict, conflict is content.

Introduce Bounty Hunting so "white hat" players can go after gankers.

Then to have some meaning on PVP other than ganking. Introduce player own space with resources linked to parts of the galaxy. There, you got Player created wars, politics and content.

That's the endgame. Create a player filled galaxy together.

Not a shiny ship.

While we have been advised by a Dev that the majority of players play in Open, we have also been told that Frontier are "well aware" that the majority of players don't get involved in PvP - which suggests that focusing on PvP might be a waste of development for a significant portion of the playerbase.

PvP is "allowed" anywhere in both multi-player game modes. Players have been seeking bonuses for playing in Open for years - the only feature that Frontier seem to have possibly considered for an Open play bonus is Powerplay.

How could PvP be made "rewarding for both ends" - in a manner that it is not possible to exploit through player collusion?

The three game modes may be a problem to be solved for some players - however they have been part of the game design for over seven years now and features of the released game for over five years. Frontier have been aware that some players don't agree with Frontier's stance on player choice (of who they might encounter) for years - and that has not changed their stance.

 

[Linnunrata]

It would be dangerous because PVP is allowed.

The odds of being ganked/finding someone to gank would be astronomically low (like it is now outside obvious hotspots) unless you shoehorn in some kind of goofy "there are only five profitable low security systems in the bubble".

As for the rest, we end up in the same old loop of arguments about how pacifist players should be coaxed or forced to provide "end game content" for people who apparently can't join the PvP dueling/wing fighting community or fight in squadron wars.

 

[Misskar]

Statistics about PVP are misleading. Nowadays the only PVP midly rewarding is ganking and people can avoid it easily delivering in solo... so it's even less profitable. Even if I am a PVP player, I won't be doing that here.

Consensous PVP can be fun, and Limunrata has a point. But that's not open world PVP.

Those pacifist players are playing in a galaxy filled with other players. There are a lot of things that could be done to protect them so they can have a pleasant experience with the game as they like. I have numbered some: High Sec Space, Bounty System. The game have some in place: Insurance, blocking. There could be more: Inmunity for X hours, anti-interception modules, .... playing a non-multiplayer game....

I like PVP not because I am always the ganker. The adrenaline rush is for both and that's why we play games. I love the sensation of having 100m in the cargo and getting away with it. In this game is just too easy.

BGS and PowerPlay are both in the edge or being something great but they aren't. If one of the systems were heavily focused in PVP, I wouldn't be talking here.

I want to feel like I belong somewhere and fight for that, this game has all the tools to do it but doesn't do it. That's what makes me angry.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

I still think it's going to be ridiculous to have a commodity that can generate profits of 2 million credits per ton.

If it's less than that, go mining in solo.

Players wanting to risk trading in open are already there in Borann. The mindset of wanting to risk your ship and profits in open is there, or it isn't. If it's there you're doing it because it's fun, not to make credits. If I did ever bump into a player in my pirate ship, I'd happily take 5t of biowaste, because it's the interaction between players that's fun, not the profit at the end. If I wanted profit, I'd focus solely on LTD carrying NPCs because I can empty the hold on those (I wouldn't do that to a player, because what's the incentive for them to keep going with that trade route?).

 

[Ethaidan]

OOTN... does that stand for Open Only Troll Noob?

 

[Robert Maynard]

Statistics about PVP are misleading.

I'd be interested to know of a better source than Frontier themselves.

Nowadays the only PVP midly rewarding is ganking and people can avoid it easily delivering in solo... so it's even less profitable. Even if I am a PVP player, I won't be doing that here.

Gankers do PvPers no real favours in a game where other players are an optional extra.

Consensous PVP can be fun, and Limunrata has a point. But that's not open world PVP.

It can indeed be fun for those interested in PvP. Not all players are interested in PvP.

Those pacifist players are playing in a galaxy filled with other players.

Not when they are playing in Solo.

There are a lot of things that could be done to protect them so they can have a pleasant experience with the game as they like. I have numbered some: High Sec Space, Bounty System. The game have some in place: Insurance, blocking. There could be more: Inmunity for X hours, anti-interception modules, .... playing a non-multiplayer game....

What could be done for those who have no interest at all in PvP and knew what they were buying when they bought this game (a game where PvP is entirely optional)?

There is no need for those players to seek another game - they already have this one.

I like PVP not because I am always the ganker. The adrenaline rush is for both and that's why we play games. I love the sensation of having 100m in the cargo and getting away with it. In this game is just too easy.

Not everyone plays this game, or any game for that matter, for an adrenaline rush.

BGS and PowerPlay are both in the edge or being something great but they aren't. If one of the systems were heavily focused in PVP, I wouldn't be talking here.

Only CQC is PvP focused in this game. Every other game feature can be played in any appropriate game mode.

I want to feel like I belong somewhere and fight for that, this game has all the tools to do it but doesn't do it. That's what makes me angry.

That's the game we all bought. That a subset of players want it to be changed for all players is obvious. Of course, not all players want those changes.

 

[Linnunrata]

Nowadays the only PVP midly rewarding is ganking and people can avoid it easily delivering in solo... so it's even less profitable. Even if I am a PVP player, I won't be doing that here.

Hmm, ganking in general is a bit elusive term in ED, but I think the true issue isn't player piracy - it is ganking just for the kill where the reward is paid in salt. You'd probably see more people in Open if it was about simple piracy where the victim trades their ship+cargo to a certain percentage of loot.

 

[Misskar]

CQC is a different game, it has no consecuences in-game.

I'd be interested to know of a better source than Frontier themselves.

I told you why they were misleading, not because of the source but because of the data itself. There is no gameplay for pvpers I wonder why there is no pvp players.

Anyway, what I am getting from this conversation is that this isn't probably the game I'd love it to be and is never going to become anything close.

 

[Robert Maynard]

CQC is a different game, it has no consecuences in-game.

Nearly none - a few credits and, eventually, a system permit.

I told you why they were misleading, not because of the source but because of the data itself. There is no gameplay for pvpers I wonder why there is no pvp players.

Then they are not misleading - as any assumption regarding how many new players might join the game if PvP content was included is just that - an assumption.

If Frontier had wanted to make a game with PvP as a core element then it would have done so - and made a different pitch back in 2012 when they were seeking Kickstarter funding for this game.

Anyway, what I am getting from this conversation is that this isn't probably the game I'd love it to be and is never going to become anything close.

Each player has an idea of what the game could ideally be - and it is likely that each player's preference is different and sometimes diametrically opposed to that of other players.

Given Frontier's statements over time, especially with regard to the BGS, it seems increasingly less likely that the game will change fundamentally. We still await the outcome of the Powerplay Flash Topics (of May'18) with regard to potential changes to that feature.