An investigation into Frontier's actions on Combat Logging

[VR jefranklin18]

I have to disagree with you, from what I have read so far, the Mobius admins did receive support from Frontier to get the issue resolved. Sour apples to get through occasionally, but these get reported to admins and dealt with swiftly.

For times when I want to have a peaceful night I use Mobius group, I can't say I have come across any PvP there yet.

Pretty sure they said it was a group admin issue to resolve.

The problem is utter tools like the SDC think it is clever to interfere with everyone elses game play, including breaking the rules of a group that specifically disallows PvP and Frontier's response is to give them an hour long stream to gloat.

 

[Cosmos]

Examining the finger instead of the moon it points at

Thats some Bruce Lee reference that

 

[Charles Erika von Hackbeil]

Thank you



Consider this also: the reason he has accrued such a large bounty is because his victims did not log.

What's the average fine for murder, 8K or so? (I can't remember). But let's do some quick math using that figure: that's nearly 90 murders of people that didn't log before their deaths.

His ability to murder with absolutely NO consequences, ever, is only strengthened by Frontier's inactions on logging.

That´s true again.

And it´s a logic consequence that the sidewinder pilot learns about all this and begins to help himself by CL. Because there is absolutely no point for him to stay in the game. This is the style of PvP SDC et al are after, as far as I expirienced it.

Isn´t it a little weird when these Cutter pilots are now whining because of people logging?

 

[thorn-]

More likely, he got it from killing NPCs, especially System Authority.

Based on his actions that night - watching his interdictions, his stalking patterns, dropping in on his wakes - his preferred targets were other players.

Another Commander, amusingly said in open chat "Don't bother going for XXXXX. He'll just log."

 

[andrak]

Hey guys, you've probably seen but I did post a reply on Reddit.

Here's the details.

===

"Thanks for bringing this to our attention.

First of all, I would like to take a moment to assure you that combat logging is against the rules and it’s something that we actively review and action on a regular basis. We have internal processes which we follow to ensure that the reviews are dealt with in a fair and thorough way. We use a number of data points and telemetry to help guide our decision and every report is treated on a case by case basis. There are a number of factors included in that process but we don’t share details of how we action rule breakers as this would give people an advantage in circumventing those checks, should someone be inclined to do so.

However, after looking into the reports that you’ve highlighted here and taking a moment to review them in more detail I can confirm that on this occasion we didn’t follow the processes that we set out and subsequently these reports were not actioned. While we don’t tend to talk about individual reports (even ones like this) we feel that it’s important to give you an open, honest and transparent answer to your post. I must stress that this is absolutely not typical of our standard review and reporting process and this mistake was completely unintentional.

I would like to apologise for the error and thank you for bringing it to our attention. By doing so you’ve helped us to review and make improvements to our existing process which lets us deliver the best possible support for our community.

I also want to add though that reports are still very important to us. We have hundreds of thousands of Commanders playing and while cheating and rule breaking is very small within the Elite Dangerous community it is still something that we do review and take very seriously. Please do continue to submit reports of rule breaking with as much detail as possible and we will endeavour to review these and take action where needed. "

Promises an open, honest answer... Doesn't give one citing circumvention as a reason. Same tired promises made.

It just so happens that in this one case. The case where players are testing you on it, you've failed to action it. No, no, no but all other cases are properly processed! Honest... please.

If truthful it shows incompetence, if untruthful it's just more lies. I suspect a little from column A and a little from column B.

 

[Pyrotiger]

I believe this is more a test of FD than anything else.

In my experience, those who test who aren't dealt with appropriately will just keep pushing the boundaries. Surely a strong example must be made if the threat of consequences for combat logging is to be taken seriously.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Who are the SCD

Or whoever... not even important enough to get the abbreviation right.

 

[DefiledDragon]

P2P allows for near real time connectivity between clients, the addition of allowing the client to handle most of the number crunching and rapidly communicate that to the other clients in the session is what allows for Elite's agile flight/combat model and player to player interactivity, not unlike your average FPS or Vehicle combat game. In a client/server model the need for the server to track state change and then report it back to the clients and ensuring the data is not altered between the server and client to prevent many forms of cheating, would introduce enough lag to make Elite's flight/combat model very difficult without significant predicative algorithms.

Sorry, but you have no idea what you're talking about. If they switched from p2p to client server it would just mean the instance handling would be done by the server instead of the client and it would also likely mean less lag and better overall performance. Of course, this would mean they would need more and better servers, which costs money. That's the real reason for the decision. Stop trying to fill people's heads with nonsense.

Added just to settle the "argument" once and for all.

http://gamedev.stackexchange.com/qu...ons-of-p2p-multiplayer-games-vs-client-server

 

[Arguendo]

I have to disagree with you, from what I have read so far, the Mobius admins did receive support from Frontier to get the issue resolved. Sour apples to get through occasionally, but these get reported to admins and dealt with swiftly.

I'd like to see you extrapolate on the "support" you believe Mobius (he is one person that admins the group and kicks people) is getting from Frontier. Basically, it's a matter of searching manually through 18,000 names to find the one cmdr in question. Now add around 12,000 to that if the person is a member of both Mobius and Mobius PVE.
There are no ways to sort the list, nor is there any logical arrangment to it. Luckily for Mobius he has some helpful people around so he doesn't have to search it himself, but the search still has to be made and he has to kick them himself.
So again, please extrapolate on the support from Frontier. It really ain't all that much, even though the OP and his brethren believe that Mobius is Frontier's favorite cmdr and bend over backwards to help him. Strange, as Mobius or any of his helpers haven't been on any "subcommittee" to change aspects of the game.

And when people say join Mobius, remember that this isn't an official PVE group with rules and regulations from Frontier. It's the result of one guy creating a group where he wanted people to play the environment and not each other, and apparantly he has about 30,000 likeminded players out there. The rules are "self imposed" and the only steps available are to kick the offender and ban them from returning to the group.

Additionally, if you really want to get one up on the OP and his peeps, join Mobius...and brag about it. They do hate that

 

[smiths121]

Sorry, but you have no idea what you're talking about. If they switched from p2p to client server it would just mean the instance handling would be done by the server instead of the client and it would also likely mean less lag and better overall performance. Of course, this would mean they would need more and better servers, which costs money. That's the real reason for the decision. Stop trying to fill people's heads with nonsense.

Added just to settle the "argument" once and for all.

http://gamedev.stackexchange.com/qu...ons-of-p2p-multiplayer-games-vs-client-server

Well Skype did move to client/server - worked well for Lave radio lol.

On a slightly less sarcastic note, should ED player base (active not purchased) increase there is an argument that a move to client/server should be on the card (from efficiency and support costs point of view).
At the moment the player base (active not purchased) is somewhat stable, so I think I would prefer FD to focus on improving the P2P reliability. As there was for Skype, there will be an upheaval with the switch, and that is assuming that FD have architected the netcode to allow an easy switch (for example like SIP is client/server or P2P neutral). If it takes a rewrite of the netcode - well shudder I was here for Beta (actually make that Beta to 1.1)!

Simon

 

[Theodrid]

Blame the players who complain about cheating. Cute.

Even more cute is the apparent blindness to the glaring flaws in SDC's methodology.

Did Frontier royally screw up? Yes
Did the SDC have a point on this issue? Yes
Did SDC exploit that to the maximum cluster frak possible for their own ends and publicity? Yes
Did they have to do it this way? No, no, no

Cute eh?

 

[CMDR Kantos Kan]

OK, so, the OP is upset at the apparent "lying" from Frontier and a few others seem to agree with him.

I think combat-logging is not right. I've never combat-logged and lost a few ships so far, that's OK, that's just me.

However, I think that those who complain (and have the right to complain) should put their money where their mouth is, or, rather, hold their money. If you're not happy with the way that Frontier seems to be treating you, then don't buy anything from Frontier any further. If enough people feel that this is a big issue to the point of not buying anymore Frontier products and if Frontier sees a big drop in their sales, then surely they will respond. If, OTOH, it's a small minority, then Frontier will continue plowing away. It's clear from this thread (and many others I've read) that you can't please everyone, so, you got to go with the biggest group. All IMHO...

 

[Avago Earo]

Examining the finger instead of the moon it points at

[video=youtube_share;LH1GFaw09hk]https://youtu.be/LH1GFaw09hk[/video]

 

[PeachingTony]

Apologies if this has already been stated, I haven't got time to read 60 pages.

It feels to me as though the main issue here is lack of transparency in the outcome of ticket investigation.

Had Frontier said
"We've considered the evidence but it is an insufficient number of instances to warrant action being taken, but we will continue to monitor reports against this player"

then we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. On the other hand if they had said

"We've looked at the evidence and have not found evidence of combat logging"

then your point would stand (they didn't view the video).

Without this transparency there's nothing but speculation on what actually happened. FD should consider this for the future.

 

[satrycus]

Easy way to stop combat logging problem.
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/307369-Sugestion-Player-disconected

This wouldn't work because the server isn't running the NPCs; all the work is done on the clients, i.e. our PCs.

Which client do you believe when it reports that a player has been killed? How do you differentiate between two clients losing connection to each other, but not the FDev servers, due to network issues and someone blocking the IP address of another player at their firewall?

 

[DefiledDragon]

Exactly my point. So why are you people doing this?

In your blind and stupid attempt to mitigate combat logging you might irreversibly damage Frontiers reputation and Elite's development.

For fricks sake, you are playing with fire. This is why people are getting upset. Hello Games and NMS are proof that this is not a good idea.

g think before you act people. God dammit.

So your answer to the issue of FD possibly lying to it's customers is to ignore it in case they go pop and make your favourite game disappear? You do realise you're not the only person in the world, don't you? Some of us value integrity and trust over the lifespan of a video game.

 

[Sole Hunter]

LOL.

Poor excuse. One message for you - gitgud at propaganda.

I said 30 pages ago, that frontier would have to make a statement and reiterate their stance. Was I right?

Yes, i was. We knew what was going to happen. You didn't believe me of course because it's coming from the mouth of SDC.

Yet, here we are.

I'd like all SDC members involved in this 'test' to be banned for attempted black-mail.

For the record I disagree with CL, but this 'test' and the way they went about it is more about 'SDC Propaganda' then any concern for the community.

Blackmail, lol. Yeah! let's send everybody to the butcher even those who didn't have anything to do with this.

What a great logic.

Maybe we should ban you for being ignorant?

Doesn't SDC claim to have a secret line of communication with the devs and that Sandro personally consults with them regularly? Every time one of them makes a thread they invariably mention this.

The community would be shocked if they knew the truth.

Here is a picture that speak for itself :

 

[Obnoxious_Gamer]

I said 30 pages ago, that frontier would have to make a statement and reiterate their stance. Was I right?

Yes, i was. We knew what was going to happen. You didn't believe me of course because it's coming from the mouth of SDC.

Yet, here we are.



Blackmail, lol. Yeah! let's send everybody to the butcher even those who didn't have anything to do with this.

What a great logic.

Maybe we should ban you for being ignorant?

Question: do you actively search for specific bits of shoes?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I said 30 pages ago, that frontier would have to make a statement and reiterate their stance. Was I right?

Yes, i was. We knew what was going to happen. You didn't believe me of course because it's coming from the mouth of SDC.

Yet, here we are.



Blackmail, lol. Yeah! let's send everybody to the butcher even those who didn't have anything to do with this.

What a great logic.

Maybe we should ban you for being ignorant?

The community would be shocked if they knew the truth.

Dear SDC,

we're getting to the point that I get replacement embarrassment whenever the Voice of Propaganda posts. I know it'd be cruel to relieve him of his position, but being SDC he's probably quite good at combat. Isn't there an Officer for Green Beam Weapons position vacant? Then you could call it a promotion. Everyone's happy.

See? That's how you do propaganda.

Spoiler

Minor detail: nothing to do with propaganda, that is how good I am

Consider this my application form. Relevant details: I'm 44, Leo, and can talk more bolloxs than a puppy convention in Louisiana.

Awaiting your response,

Ziggy.

 

[frostypaw]

The community would be shocked if they knew the truth.

Yeah pretty disappointed if that's the case.

That would colour a lot of my view of future development of the game. I would hope community management would know better than show favouritism to groups that drive players from the game.