Any grind, is in your mind.

[Aewarin Jameson]

Whatever is subjective does not exist objectively by definition.

That's quite deep - reminds me of an Orb song ..

Spoiler

voice overlay:

"... created a world of the mind, of the intimate imagination, which is as real in its way as any actual country on the map.

Sir Karl Popper, in one of his most important papers, calls it "the third world, or world three.

The first world is the objective world of things.
The second world is my inner, subjective world.
But, says Popper, there's a third world, the world of objective contents of thoughts.

Teilhard de Chardin calls this third world the noosphere, that is, the world of the mind"

 

[Ian Skippy]

I'm not saying you'll like my play style more than your existing one. But wouldn't it be interesting to find out...?

You might really enjoy the endgame. You might even start to view things that delay you from pursuing your new objectives as ... unwelcome. Even as ...

... a grind?

Why would anyone like to experience 'grind'? If thats what you offer, some might pass...

 

[Truesilver]

Why would anyone like to experience 'grind'? If thats what you offer, some might pass...

What I mean is that, to me, once acquisition is complete the game is not grindy at all and really fires my imagination. That is the sandbox.

It's the process of acquiring the toys that I and some others find rather less enjoyable than what you can do with those toys, once acquired.

Admittedly at the moment the game has far, far better endgame PvP functionality than BGS functionality, largely because so much Developer resource has been invested in the flight model compared to BGS / Powerplay. The BGS is buggy and Powerplay ... well, we all know about Powerplay.

If FDev put the work into those aspects, hopefully more PvE players will feel positively about the endgame also.

But I would repeat that, to me, the argument that we should 'Enjoy the journey very slowly because once you've got all the ships the game is rubbish and you'll be bored' - simply could not be more untrue. Once acquisition is complete, the parts of the game I most enjoy - which involve no grind at all - are unlocked.

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What is "endgame" for you in a game?

I ask because I wanted to answer your posting with "there is no endgame, just personal goals", but then I realized that in some MMOs there is a PvP endgame. In those games the PvE content is finished and then the players can participate in PvP battlegrounds, arenas and other PvP activities that don't really have an end.

Knowing what commenters consider "endgame" might help to understand each other better.

For me it's competing with other players, ideally in a group v group scenario utilising both direct PvP combat and indirect PvE/BGS/Powerplay -type mechanics.

 

[Jex =TE=]

And neither are those that constantly claim 'grind' Je,x there is, unsurprisingly, a mixture of people and opinions here. The grinders isn't where we judge the game either, why you believe your side of the argument is objective and not subjective baffles me. Despite your claims this game also has a name for itself as an innovative, beautiful and varied space game/sim, I guarantee that for every voice screaming grind that I could show you 2 maybe 3 having a blast. Is the game for everyone?, No, is the game flawless?, not by a long chalk. If folk decide to keep banging the same nail into the same bit of timber that's their call, but please, don't tell those of us who occasionally hit the nail but do plenty besides that we must be grinding too, we're not.

It's objective because we're not looking at your opinion. We're looking outside and listening to what other people are saying. For every 2 or 3 people you can show me, I can show you 5 or 7 that have left the game behind. The game is grindy - this is an established fact. Yes the game looks amazing - if that's all you need out of a "game" is looks then we're abviously at odds. I always go for gameplay first. If the gameplay is bad, it doesn't get played. Simple, repetitive tasks do not make good gameplay - this is game design 101.

Could you give me an example of a challenging game mechanic?

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we all agree on the presence of the grind (or game or...). the differences are more in how to approach it which is entirely subjective as a player.

And no he isn't the playerbase, neither am i, neither are you.

we ALL are

Well that was my point, that you can't look objectively at the game from your own perspestive. Why you need to repeat that I'm not sure and if we don't all agree on the presence of grind, clearly, or we still wouldn't be talking about LOL

 

[Jex =TE=]

Whining to the devs incessantly about how your chosen way to make easy money isnt available and you cant mindlessly stack missions because passengers keep pointing you different directions and mining is boring and rebuys on billion dollar ships are too expensive that you keep losing every day because your a Sothislord scrub who thought that gitting rich was the same as gitting gud is clearly the wrong way to play the game. Not saying this is you, but... it is a lot of other people.

Also, ED is NOT an arcade game. That's the dumbest thing I've read on these forums by a mile, bro.

Care to elaborate on how it isn't arcade? It's simple to fly, I disagree with deadspin - if you can't land first try then i dunno what to say. Combat is mastered within a few tries of doing it. Everything is super quick (dying, rebuy, repair, reload, cargo) the flight model, whilst fun, is entirely arcade and you're guns point themselves for you.

Go and play Rogue System or Kerbal and then come back here and tell us that ED isn't arcade.

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Mod hat on..

I know hyperbole is all the rage these days, but let's not be disrespectful. People can have different opinions and that's fine.

Aaaah so love the ignore button - I miss all these nasty posts now, almost...maybe....

 

[Theodrid]

It's objective because we're not looking at your opinion. We're looking outside and listening to what other people are saying. For every 2 or 3 people you can show me, I can show you 5 or 7 that have left the game behind. The game is grindy - this is an established fact. Yes the game looks amazing - if that's all you need out of a "game" is looks then we're abviously at odds. I always go for gameplay first. If the gameplay is bad, it doesn't get played. Simple, repetitive tasks do not make good gameplay - this is game design 101.

That you are not looking at others opinions besides those that agree with you proves your subjectivity not any objectivity. The only 'outside opinion's you are looking at are obviously only those that agree with you because there is plenty of outside sources that hold an opposing view. You claim the game being grindy is 'an established fact', it isn't, it's an opinion that some hold, no more, no less. Also, please do not misrepresent what I said, I never stated that all the game had going for it was it's visuals, I also didn't state that that was all I require from a game.

 

[Deadspin]

It is essentially their truth, which is as good as ours. Can you accept that?

Because you've accepted anything anyone else has said, right?

Well your the one playing a game you dislike so who is it that really has a denial problem?[wacky] Just like Elite you're self defeating grind arguments have no endgame. Those of us that want a slow long burning experience already have what we want.

Enjoy your grind because nothing is changing any time soon.

So do you actually contribute to the debate/argument or do you just drop in to randomly insult whichever person happens to catch your eye?

This thread got stupid, fast, after I left work yesterday. Ya'll should be ashamed of yourselves.

 

[Jex =TE=]

Well, I would argue that it requires a lot of thought and planning. Since you are affecting the BGS when doing Trading, you can't stay on the same route forever. So, you need some time to find 3-4 routes and use them carefully.

With my Trade Anaconda, I make about 9 million / 30 minutes in one route. But even within that short timespan, the payout drops off. IE; with 30 minutes of doing one A-B-A route, you will notice that the last payout is less than the first.

Time to move to the second route or maybe do something else.

Saying that Trading isn't gameplay is false and ignorant.

No not at all. In fact, you just described it as even more boring. You have a time limit before you have to go off to another trade route and grind that. I say it isn't gameplay because you watch netflix when doing it. It requires the barest of concentration.

You click +
you luanch
You hyperspace
you supercruise (yawn)
you dock
you hit -

That's gameplay? All that probably takes about 5 minutes in which you're doing mostly nothing. It's so lacking, ED became a netflix simulator because of it. Try watching netflix when you playing Assetta Corsa, Falcon 4, Arma 3, The Forest, Team Fortress, BF1, etc

Do you know the reason people don't watch TV when playing games like this? Because they spent their hard earned money to play a game so they didn't have to watch TV.

I fail to see how any game can be positive when you're watching TV because you're so bored.

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LOL I handed out all my rep on this thread

 

[Jex =TE=]

Again, you need to recognize what a grind really is.
A grind is NOT something you need to do repeatedly and hate doing.
A grind IS having to do something repeatedly regardless of your own personal thoughts on it.
Therefore no, grind is NOT a subjective term at all, and this is what most people arguing there is no grind fail to acknowledge. As long as you understand the terminology you would know that grind is actually terminologically objective; It has nothing to do with whether or not you enjoy it.

Case in point:
I've gone back to playing eve for a while as I wait for the devs to fix basic game mechanics(if they ever will).
Yes, EVE is very grindy if you run missions, but you can still enjoy doing them. Enjoying it or not, it is still a grind.
If you go exploring wormholes EVE can be grindy or not grindy depending on how you go about it. If you go wherever catches your fancy then it is not a grind, If you do it because you want to find a certian type of site, then it is a grind.

If you enjoy the grind, fine, but at least understand and know the meaning of what you're arguing about.

Good, now we have "Grind" defined we can all move on

7 Days to Die can be grindy when you're mining. You keep doing the same action, hitting the rock with your pickaxe. I made a post about it a few pages ago but it's fun for a variety of reasons and it's deep. Grinding with the girlfriend is..... [big grin]

 

[Jex =TE=]

A grind is simply an "approach" to an activity, not the activity itself. At worst the goalposts in ED are set way down the field, but it's not the game's fault that players choose to "grind" to those goals.

Say you want to be Elite in any rank; we all know that it takes a lot of scanning objects, or hauling objects, or killing objects to achieve the sought after rank, but is it the game's fault that the player chose to pursue that goal to the exclusion of other activities? No, of course not. The player is always free to mix up their activities to avoid the feeling of grind.

The bottom line is that the people who say that the game is a grind are essentially saying that they don't like the activities contained within the framework of the game, and that the goalposts should be moved much closer to their end of the field. Sorry guys, but just because you wish the "finish line" was closer to the starting line doesn't make it a grind. Some people think that's a good idea, some don't. Personally I love how big ED is, and how large a time investment is required for the top tier ranks and various ship objectives. Ditto for engineering top modules.

My advice is to sample the full range of what the game has to offer instead of just getting stuck in one activity that seems to move at a glacial pace, such as ranking up to buy a Cutter, or just doing PvE combat, etc. Try something new, you might be pleasantly surprised.

So essentially what you're saying, if you don't want to take 10 years getting there, if you want to acheive any of the goals the game sets out for you, then you do have to grind but it's your fault, not the games, because the players designed the game not ED, obviously!

LOLOLOLOL that's funny

Let's stop iwth this facetious argument already. FD make the game and more people have stopped playing than bought it.

Which way do you think is the best way for this game to reach it's 10 year plan because on the current heading, with crap like Engineers thrown in, I'm not seeing a season 5.

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Just spent 10 hours to find a single field of geysers.
Some might call that a grind.
I call it relaxing.

Although an active geology surface scanner would be nice.

And what was it like?? LOL

Do you have VR? Jeeez did you take any pics? Video? did it happen? (lol) - Thing is you set yourself a goal and accomplished it - that's not a game mechanic though. More interested to hear about your experience of the discovery though

 

[Shar]

So essentially what you're saying, if you don't want to take 10 years getting there, if you want to acheive any of the goals the game sets out for you, then you do have to grind but it's your fault, not the games, because the players designed the game not ED, obviously!

LOLOLOLOL that's funny

Let's stop iwth this facetious argument already. FD make the game and more people have stopped playing than bought it.

Which way do you think is the best way for this game to reach it's 10 year plan because on the current heading, with crap like Engineers thrown in, I'm not seeing a season 5.

So full of it do you even read your own stuff

Quote "FD make the game and more people have stopped playing than bought it" this makes no sence obviously someone is still playing it....read what you write and have a think about it. And yeah grind is defined doing something you don't want to do, but how would you define doing something you don't want to do by choice? don't know myself i would have to ask a shrink.[wacky]

 

[Jex =TE=]

Ed is a grind fest. Don't think so? Your in denial.

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's it, case closed. MODS?????????? Close the thread now we have a winner!



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Name any other game that doesn't have repetitive gameplay?

Falcon 4
DCS
Arma 1 2 and 3
7 Days to Die
Just about any racing game

 

[Shar]

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's it, case closed. MODS?????????? Close the thread now we have a winner!



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Falcon 4
DCS
Arma 1 2 and 3
7 Days to Die
Just about any racing game

Newsflash playing a game you dislike is not winning[wacky]

 

[DaveB]

...Bridge? Fuggedaboudit.

Well, with any familiarity with trick-taking card games and a one-page basic Acol cheat-sheet I can have somebody playing acceptable beginner-level bridge in about 10 minutes. But yeah, it did take me a long time to actually master that bidding system and literally years of play to develop the skill in reading the table that allows me to do well even when the cards are being "unfriendly" or when the bidding went seriously off the rails. I suppose you could call that a grind... I was just playing a game I enjoyed. Not really that far different from how I play Elite, when you think about it, and I've been playing the two games for about the same length of time too (I'd been playing Bridge for just under 5 years when the original Elite was released)

 

[Jex =TE=]

That you are not looking at others opinions besides those that agree with you proves your subjectivity not any objectivity. The only 'outside opinion's you are looking at are obviously only those that agree with you because there is plenty of outside sources that hold an opposing view. You claim the game being grindy is 'an established fact', it isn't, it's an opinion that some hold, no more, no less. Also, please do not misrepresent what I said, I never stated that all the game had going for it was it's visuals, I also didn't state that that was all I require from a game.

Any misrepresentation is squarely based in your imagination I'm afraid. Stop projecting and then blaming me for it

I can claim the game is a grind on the opinion of others. When so many people describe the game as a grind, it's a grind and a negative one. We can see it's a grind too by looking at the game mechanics for the set goals in the game - grindy, without a doubt. Ok so you want to grind for 10 years instead of a year. You go from one game mdoe to another because you get bored of doing them repeatedly - that's grind! You're just disguising it by rotating the things you can do.

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This thread got stupid, fast, after I left work yesterday. Ya'll should be ashamed of yourselves.

I noticed a pattern that when some users start posting in threads....

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Because you've accepted anything anyone else has said, right?

I accept that it is your opinion. I don't have to accept because I don't buy it. Again, it is me doing this. It is subjective. No one is winning argument fight here. In the end both sides might have plausable argument. I don't see it in other side arguments.

It seems to me that people who want to argue for "grinding" feel very threatened when someone points out it is their opinion and their way they play game. I wonder why. Wh this 'my way or highway' reaction? Threats? Really?

Maybe it is worth to explore reasons behind why you feel that way? I understand why I enjoy playing ED casually more or less. But do you?

I don't know. You might have.

 

[Jex =TE=]

So full of it do you even read your own stuff

Quote "FD make the game and more people have stopped playing than bought it" this makes no sence obviously someone is still playing it....read what you write and have a think about it. And yeah grind is defined doing something you don't want to do, but how would you define doing something you don't want to do by choice? don't know myself i would have to ask a shrink.[wacky]

It's spelled "sense" and of course I read my own stuff. What I'm not going to do is respond to your trolling response. Learn to make better posts and I might.

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Newsflash playing a game you dislike is not winning[wacky]

Wow and you thought I was serious. I see the problem now.

 

[Shar]

Any misrepresentation is squarely based in your imagination I'm afraid. Stop projecting and then blaming me for it

I can claim the game is a grind on the opinion of others. When so many people describe the game as a grind, it's a grind and a negative one. We can see it's a grind too by looking at the game mechanics for the set goals in the game - grindy, without a doubt. Ok so you want to grind for 10 years instead of a year. You go from one game mdoe to another because you get bored of doing them repeatedly - that's grind! You're just disguising it by rotating the things you can do.

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I noticed a pattern that when some users start posting in threads....

Wow the word grind used 7 times in two lines, someones got it bad. lol Now we have a winner.

But please explain how more people have stopped playing than bought it or can i assume that makes sense to you?

 

[Theodrid]

Any misrepresentation is squarely based in your imagination I'm afraid. Stop projecting and then blaming me for it

I can claim the game is a grind on the opinion of others. When so many people describe the game as a grind, it's a grind and a negative one. We can see it's a grind too by looking at the game mechanics for the set goals in the game - grindy, without a doubt. Ok so you want to grind for 10 years instead of a year. You go from one game mdoe to another because you get bored of doing them repeatedly - that's grind! You're just disguising it by rotating the things you can do.

I'm not projecting though, I clearly said 'despite your claims this game also has a name for itself as an innovative, beautiful and varied space game/sim', you cherry picked the visuals element and said 'yes the game looks amazing - if that's all you need out of a "game" is looks then we're obviously at odds', so, yeah, a clear misrepresentation in terms of cherry picking and nothing to do with 'imagination', 'projection' or 'blaming'.

You are free to claim the game is a grind in yours and some others opinion, there is no problem with that, you cannot claim that 'the game is grindy' on a global scale because it is pure opinion.

Let's say you do not like football Jex, you find it 'boring', does that mean football is boring to you or that football is globally boring and anyone liking it is wrong?

Le's say you don't like fish Jex, does that mean that nobody can like fish because Jex thinks it tastes 'boring'?

Let's say you do not like Elite Dangerous Jex, because it is 'grindy', does that make it universally grindy beyond doubt or is that just yours, (and some others), opinion?

 

[Deadspin]

"Grind exists within Elite."

Is this acceptable?