Break through SCBs instantly with modified railguns (Newletter 121)

[wstephenson]

Some more ideas for 'feedback cascade' weapons:

Instead of the weapon's 'SCB counter' effect instantly cancelling a shield, the feedback in the system could show as an amplified negative effect

• increasing! the heat load generated by the SCB
• causing an rapid discharge of one or all capacitors
• or by reversing the SCB's shield healing effect

To illustrate the temporal dimension of the feedback, perhaps a beam laser would be a better base weapon than a instant hit railgun.

 

[Zeta Legion]

Some more ideas for 'feedback cascade' weapons:

Instead of the weapon's 'SCB counter' effect instantly cancelling a shield, the feedback in the system could show as an amplified negative effect

• increasing! the heat load generated by the SCB
• causing an rapid discharge of one or all capacitors
• or by reversing the SCB's shield healing effect

To illustrate the temporal dimension of the feedback, perhaps a beam laser would be a better base weapon than a instant hit railgun.

Beam lasers probably make the most sense with having effects that build up over time due to both their continuous fire effect and the fact that more than any other weapon they self-limit their DPS through heat and capacitor drain. I'm not sure it's a good idea to attach such a disastrous effect to a hitscan weapon that can be fired accurately at pretty much any time. Cannons, PA's and missiles should probably have the most pronounced effects, as they can be dodged by skilled pilots and have a relatively slow rate of fire.

 

[bitstorm]

Sad how the same can be said for every thread about every change in every patch, half screaming for a change in one direction, half screaming for a change in the other direction, and both proclaiming balance is dooms if their change is not made

With this I also worry on day one beta it will be the same.

The thing is people need time to play with it all in game. With a complex system like the weapon/module system seems like it's going to need time for players to adapt and figure it all out.

Often meta takes time to evolve, watching say Starcraft or similar you often see some meta that seems totally overpowered that people are calling to be nerfed, defeated down the line by some strategy no-one's previously tried. Sometimes these things take time to work themselves out, I just hope on day one beta Frontier appreciates this, sometimes nerfing something that may *seem* OP isn't the way, by doing so you prevent players evolving their game.

 

[Eymerich]

Sad how the same can be said for every thread about every change in every patch, half screaming for a change in one direction, half screaming for a change in the other direction, and both proclaiming balance is dooms if their change is not made

There were a long discussion about corvette being downgraded from 2 huge - 3 large - 2 medium as it now (2 huge 1 large 2 medium 2 small) and no one of us had the corvette at that time. Mostly said it wasn't a good idea and still now, you found people which remains of the same idea.

In any case, it's true that things like this must be tested "on the field" but I agree that the idea of destroy an shield while recharging it's:

1) insane because overpowered: as far as i Know there is nothing in the game which works in the same way;

2) insane because unbalanced:
2.1) you are going to hurt once more big ships against small ships;

2.2) your are making again scb useless: if this is the case, then let's remove them completly;

3) insane because unfun: For Npc ships, already overpowered when in wings, doesn't applies the same rules for player (infinite ammo, no heat problem, deadly aim)

 

[Gedemon]

There were a long discussion about corvette being downgraded from 2 huge - 3 large - 2 medium as it now (2 huge 1 large 2 medium 2 small) and no one of us had the corvette at that time. Mostly said it wasn't a good idea and still now, you found people which remains of the same idea.

In any case, it's true that things like this must be tested "on the field" but I agree that the idea of destroy an shield while recharging it's:

1) insane because overpowered: as far as i Know there is nothing in the game which works in the same way;

2) insane because unbalanced:
2.1) you are going to hurt once more big ships against small ships;

2.2) your are making again scb useless: if this is the case, then let's remove them completly;

3) insane because unfun: For Npc ships, already overpowered when in wings, doesn't applies the same rules for player (infinite ammo, no heat problem, deadly aim)

(2.1) is good.

(2.2) is false.

can't find a source for (3) saying that it won't be fixed in 2.1/1.6 (what the point of heating weapons if they've not fixed the NPC ?)

 

[Soopyyy]

There were a long discussion about corvette being downgraded from 2 huge - 3 large - 2 medium as it now (2 huge 1 large 2 medium 2 small) and no one of us had the corvette at that time. Mostly said it wasn't a good idea and still now, you found people which remains of the same idea.

In any case, it's true that things like this must be tested "on the field" but I agree that the idea of destroy an shield while recharging it's:

1) insane because overpowered: as far as i Know there is nothing in the game which works in the same way;

2) insane because unbalanced:
2.1) you are going to hurt once more big ships against small ships;

2.2) your are making again scb useless: if this is the case, then let's remove them completly;

3) insane because unfun: For Npc ships, already overpowered when in wings, doesn't applies the same rules for player (infinite ammo, no heat problem, deadly aim)

lol what?
The NPC's blow all the time. They need to be better.

 

[Derath]

I can't see this having a major impact outside of the big 3, its an interesting idea primarily because it involves using a weapon slot to counter shield cells, i'm ok with that as long as the base weapon isn't just a normal railgun. It has to have an opportunity cost or it'll just be universally used (for pvp)

 

[GraXXoR]

This is a fun thread. However, on a serious note, I propose making it a beam type weapon and while the beam is hitting the shields a proportion of the SCB recharge is nullified.
If you manage to hit the shields constantly during the full 4s of recharge, the maximum effect will occur, whatever that is. The effect may vary depending on the class of the weapon.

That will take some skill and not be an "instawin" button..

On the other hand, If these are class 1 railguns, I will have found the perfect fit for one of my corvette's class 1 slots.

 

[Nugstar]

This is a fun thread. However, on a serious note, I propose making it a beam type weapon and while the beam is hitting the shields a proportion of the SCB recharge is nullified.
If you manage to hit the shields constantly during the full 4s of recharge, the maximum effect will occur, whatever that is. The effect may vary depending on the class of the weapon.

That will take some skill and not be an "instawin" button..

On the other hand, If these are class 1 railguns, I will have found the perfect fit for one of my corvette's class 1 slots.

Except you won't be flying your corvette since you can't SCB tank.

Or... Your Vette will have no shields...

Or, most likely you'll be in a shieldless FDL or FAS.

Edit: unless missiles have been tweaked to a point where they make hull tanking a risky business.

Then you'll be in station bar to scared to fly anything!!!

 

[Nightbringerx]

I don't see that problem, ok, by the sounds of it...
You have 4 seconds to take a shot at ship while activating
a SCB with the modified rail gun, for a "CHANCE" to break the
shield that was probably about to collapse anyway(after all, the
only reason to use a SCB is to regenerate your shield, or if you have a chill).
So to recap you have 4 seconds to hit with one shot to get a chance to break a shield that was failing to begin with.....
OMG .... nerf this please.
Sheesh, you don't know how much of a chance you have.
It could only be like 10% for all you know.

 

[Nugstar]

I don't see that problem, ok, by the sounds of it...
You have 4 seconds to take a shot at ship while activating
a SCB with the modified rail gun, for a "CHANCE" to break the
shield that was probably about to collapse anyway(after all, the
only reason to use a SCB is to regenerate your shield, or if you have a chill).
So to recap you have 4 seconds to hit with one shot to get a chance to break a shield that was failing to begin with.....
OMG .... nerf this please.
Sheesh, you don't know how much of a chance you have.
It could only be like 10% for all you know.

Where does it say 'a chance to break shields'?

I think a temporary shield failure, of say 5 seconds might work.

If there's a weapon that prevents silent running for a certain amount of time then this could be very interesting.

 

[Nyres]

lol what?
The NPC's blow all the time. They need to be better.

Maybe for Elite rated pilots or serious PVPers yes, if your not a master at the game or very very skilled at PVP they might not seem to "blow all the time". While the NPC's might be brain dead in terms of maneuvering they are incredibly good with their shot placements and being able to damage you unless they're in the barrel roll of death. Something that is most likely to be fixed in 2.1 for example. As someone who does only PVE I have to say NPCs do seem to have some perks to help them keep up with players which made sense due to the dumb AI in the past. I think what most of our concerns when it comes to NPCs and this weapon is, that not enough of those perks are going to be toned down to compensate for the increased AI. As a result we'll have improved AI which we want but they'll also have all those perks where they seem to be able to ignore certain mechanics too and have the same incredible aim.

The over all concern doesn't seem to be a "we don't want this weapon in any form sort of deal" but more of can it have a negative effect to SCB users other than killing their entire shields in an instant sort of deal. Heck Nugstar has an awesome idea of having it temporarly disabling the shields for like 5 seconds before coming back on. That would be both rewarding for the attacker using the weapon and punishing for the person hit by it but wouldn't be a fight ender or a run away moment situation.

 

[GSRTrent]

I'm not one to complain because I love the game but I also love my SCB. I also love long pvp battles. It's fun and makes you think. But I'm also open to new things, such as this weapon. However, I can see this weapon being an issue for sure. Take the Cutter for example. If the CMDR has A8 Prismatics those are like 243mil cr. Think of all the hard work to get them and money to save up and now they are basically rendered useless. Kind of ruins things, doesn't it? (ps I don't fly a cutter lol). I know players complain how the larger ships shield tank and blah blah blah. All I gotta say about this is pick your battles. Last night we had about a 6v6 pvp all Corvettes, Cutters and Anacondas. Everyone has SCB and it was a BLAST! Makes you use strategy and focus fire power to drop shields then hurry to target modules so they can't jump. I love it. Battles lasting 10min+. So back to the Cutter pilot. All you need is like a silent running cobra, of all things, with a few beam lasers, this new weapon and torpedoes (now since torpedoes are getting a buff). Hit the cutter with the beam until he SCB (it's obvious when he does), hit him with the magic weapon and, wow, shields are gone. Launch a few topedoes and bye bye ship. (who knows if this will happen like this but it probably will lol). I propose that this new weapon penalizes ships using SCB. Like have the SCB charge slow down or maybe even stop the charge all together. But not drop the shields. What's the point of even running shields anymore? What's the point of even having these larger ships anymore? There is none, now. Every great game also comes to an end with that one nerf that messes it all up. This could be the beginning of the end.... Or we all just fly silent running FDL's now lol. Who needs large ships with nice shields when the shields are useless now.

 

[Eymerich]

I'm not one to complain because I love the game but I also love my SCB. I also love long pvp battles. It's fun and makes you think. But I'm also open to new things, such as this weapon. However, I can see this weapon being an issue for sure. Take the Cutter for example. If the CMDR has A8 Prismatics those are like 243mil cr. Think of all the hard work to get them and money to save up and now they are basically rendered useless. Kind of ruins things, doesn't it? (ps I don't fly a cutter lol). I know players complain how the larger ships shield tank and blah blah blah. All I gotta say about this is pick your battles. Last night we had about a 6v6 pvp all Corvettes, Cutters and Anacondas. Everyone has SCB and it was a BLAST! Makes you use strategy and focus fire power to drop shields then hurry to target modules so they can't jump. I love it. Battles lasting 10min+. So back to the Cutter pilot. All you need is like a silent running cobra, of all things, with a few beam lasers, this new weapon and torpedoes (now since torpedoes are getting a buff). Hit the cutter with the beam until he SCB (it's obvious when he does), hit him with the magic weapon and, wow, shields are gone. Launch a few topedoes and bye bye ship. (who knows if this will happen like this but it probably will lol). I propose that this new weapon penalizes ships using SCB. Like have the SCB charge slow down or maybe even stop the charge all together. But not drop the shields. What's the point of even running shields anymore? What's the point of even having these larger ships anymore? There is none, now. Every great game also comes to an end with that one nerf that messes it all up. This could be the beginning of the end.... Or we all just fly silent running FDL's now lol. Who needs large ships with nice shields when the shields are useless now.

good point here.

[smile]

 

[Ian Skippy]

You dont collapse the whole shield, only that which is left of it at the time you hit it. Assuming you use them as last resort, which is their intended use according to FD, this weapon merely provides a counter to mindless SCB usage. And lets be honest, if you consider it absolutely impossible to not be hit for five seconds at all, you're probably going to lose every pvp encounter anyway.

Ofcourse, people will ignore them during beta and just randomly chuck SCBs in their cutter when the least bit of damage is dealt. Then they'll come here, complain and state that its OP and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

So back to the Cutter pilot. All you need is like a silent running cobra, of all things, with a few beam lasers, this new weapon and torpedoes (now since torpedoes are getting a buff). Hit the cutter with the beam until he SCB (it's obvious when he does), hit him with the magic weapon and, wow, shields are gone. Launch a few topedoes and bye bye ship.

If you have to use SCBs versus a Cobra when flying a Cutter, you should lose your pilot license.

 

[GSRTrent]

If you have to use SCBs versus a Cobra when flying a Cutter, you should lose your pilot license.

I guess you #1 don't know what an example is and #2 never flown a cutter. I have seen silent running DBX take shields down on corvettes with just two beam lasers. Let's try to stay on topic, shall we. Thanks for your cooperation, bud.

 

[bitstorm]

good point here.

[smile]

Except the dude has no clue what's coming in 2.1 so as it stands it's complaining about something that no-one here is actually in a position to judge.

But of course yeah I know how the forum is, far too many folk here who like to complain about stuff they know nothing about.

Were now going beyond the usual uninformed complaining and now complaining about stuff that isn't even out yet.

Give it a chance to play out and see what happens you bunch of whinging sods.

 

[GSRTrent]

Except the dude has no clue what's coming in 2.1 so as it stands it's complaining about something that no-one here is actually in a position to judge.But of course yeah I know how the forum is, far too many folk here who like to complain about stuff they know nothing about.Were now going beyond the usual uninformed complaining and now complaining about stuff that isn't even out yet.Give it a chance to play out and see what happens you bunch of whinging sods.

I think you missed the point where I said "I'm not one to complain." My post was completely observational and opinion based. So why don't you take the word "complain" out of your post. Thanks. Or, you know, just keep putting words in peoples' mouths. EDIT: Oh, I also see you missed the part where I said " I'm also open to new things, such as this weapon". Where's the face palm emoji when you need it. HAHA!

 

[Ian Skippy]

I guess you #1 don't know what an example is and #2 never flown a cutter. I have seen silent running DBX take shields down on corvettes with just two beam lasers. Let's try to stay on topic, shall we. Thanks for your cooperation, bud.

I know what an example is, I am just pointing out your example is extremely flawed and is therefor no argument for anything. You are trying to argue the new mod may be too OP, making expensive shields literally useless because even small ships could now easily defeat Cutters. Thats simply . The Cobra has two small and two medium hardpoints. Assuming you are atleast talking about medium lasers, that means you'll do a little under 40 MJ DPS. With a 3A PD, a Cobra can fire those two beams for less than six seconds until its depleted (5.94s, to be precise). Your effective DPS will be about 20 MJ DPS. Lets assume the Cutter doesnt have prismatics and is stuck at 2000MJ of shielding. That means the Cobra needs to be firing non-stop for 1.5 minutes (!) to threathen your shields enough for this new mod to even be of any use. If you are unable to either destroy a cobra in that time or just leave the scene, SCBs would merely postpone the inevitable anyway. Its a total non-argument. And you're more then welcome to come and break my Corvette's shields with two medium lasers.

tl;dr: if you think there is a serious risk of this being OP, at least give an example of a scenario that is actually likely to happen. Make the example too silly and you're just scaremongering. Cobra's easily stripping Cutters of their shields, making C8 prismatics 'useless' is obviously silly.

 

[GSRTrent]

I know what an example is, I am just pointing out your example is extremely flawed and is therefor no argument for anything. You are trying to argue the new mod may be too OP, making expensive shields literally useless because even small ships could now easily defeat Cutters. Thats simply . The Cobra has two small and two medium hardpoints. Assuming you are atleast talking about medium lasers, that means you'll do a little under 40 MJ DPS. With a 3A PD, a Cobra can fire those two beams for less than six seconds until its depleted (5.94s, to be precise). Your effective DPS will be about 20 MJ DPS. Lets assume the Cutter doesnt have prismatics and is stuck at 2000MJ of shielding. That means the Cobra needs to be firing non-stop for 1.5 minutes (!) to threathen your shields enough for this new mod to even be of any use. If you are unable to either destroy a cobra in that time or just leave the scene, SCBs would merely postpone the inevitable anyway. Its a total non-argument. And you're more then welcome to come and break my Corvette's shields with two medium lasers.tl;dr: if you think there is a serious risk of this being OP, at least give an example of a scenario that is actually likely to happen. Make the example too silly and you're just scaremongering. Cobra's easily stripping Cutters of their shields, making C8 prismatics 'useless' is obviously silly. http://www.ericpazdziora.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/graham_chapman_stop_that_silly.jpg

Haha wow someone is butthurt getting all technical with a simple example. This CLEARLY shows you have no idea what an example is, be it logical or not is completely irrelevant. I don't fly a DBX. I fly a corvette. So if you wanna hop on over to the Xbox side of things we can have a little 1v1 pvp if you want. My GT is my user name so you can easily find me.